S/O: Logic stage history

[Sunshine State Sue]

This thread got me thinking about how much I dislike History Odyssey. We use HO because it is the only secular logic stage history program I know of. I need a history program because (1) history is a weakness, (2) I work part-time and don't have time to pull something together myself even if it wasn't a weakness, (3) ds is not a motivated student so he needs specific direction.

 

So, we are using HO for logic stage history. It includes KHE, outlining, notebook (similar to TWTM suggestion), timeline, mapwork, and additional reading material. All these are what is suggested in TWTM. The only part ds (and I) enjoy is the mapwork and additional reading material. Reading KHE, outlining, notebook, and timeline are all drudgery.

 

I understand the purpose of KHE, but it's d-u-l-l.

I understand the purpose of outlining KHE, but it's difficult for ds (and me!)

 

From TWTM (1999 edition, history chapter, page 279):

Logic-stage history involves both synthesis (fitting information into one overall framework) and analysis (understanding individual events). The time line will be the student's tool for synthesis. To help in analysis, he'll be creating another history notebook...divided into 9 sections:

 

1. Outlines
   
2. Great Men and Women
   
3. Wars, Conflicts, and Politics
   
4. etc
   

 

 

This is great in theory, but in practice, our timeline is a mess. Total chaos. I don't know that the notebook is serving the purpose of analysis because neither of us WANT to look at it. Do I trust that, with 20/20 hindsight, I will agree that synthesis and analysis were achieved because of the timeline and notebook?

 

Here is my question:

Would I ruin ds's history education if I abandoned the notebook and outlining and instead did additional reading from TWTM reading lists? I would love to be able to learn from and incorporate Teaching the Classics with the literature as well. I am not confident in my ability, though.

 

Did I mention that we are math people here? :glare: Everything *I* learned about history, I learned from SOTW in grammar stage, which we LOVED! :D Writing is not a particular strength here either. I spent half the day organizing my thoughts to write this post. :tongue_smilie: Now, I'm off to bed. :leaving:

[Rhondabee]

Do you want a different spine? Or, maybe a textbook?

 

I was going to suggest using KHE to just take notes, and let your ds decide after each two-page spread if anything caught his interest - use what interests him for his extra reading. If nothing, you just keep going in KHE. But, it sounds like the KHE reading is really bogging you down.

 

There is a textbook called "Journey Across Time" that is written for middle schoolers that is secular. Do you think something like that (maybe paired with historical fiction) would help?

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Journey+across+time

Edited November 19, 2008 by Rhondabee

[Sunshine State Sue]

Do you want a different spine? Or, maybe a textbook?

 

I was going to suggest using KHE to just take notes, and let your ds decide after each two-page spread if anything caught his interest - use what interests him for his extra reading. If nothing, you just keep going in KHE. But, it sounds like the KHE reading is really bogging you down.

 

There is a textbook called "Journey Across Time" that is written for middle schoolers that is secular. Do you think something like that (maybe paired with historical fiction) would help?

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Journey+across+time

 

Although I don't enjoy KHE, I do see the reason for it. I don't think I'd replace it because then I have to create my own program. We have stopped outlining and are now using it just to take notes, which is good enough for me. I heard a rumor that outlining KHE is no longer recommended in the latest version of TWTM? Perhaps I need to buy the latest version. I wouldn't mind supporting the folks who provide these boards.

 

I have the Susan Strauss Art middle ages book. I will look into the K12 book that was mentioned on the earlier thread, but I am resolved to using KHE. We'll even listen to the SOTW audio during the year.

 

What's really bogging me down is the outlining and notebooking. I do not believe that we are realizing the theoretical benefits of it. Dropping these would allow us more time for additional reading from the literature and history sections of TWTM.

[Donna T.]

I heard a rumor that outlining KHE is no longer recommended in the latest version of TWTM?

 

Sue, outlining KHE is still recommended in the newer TWTM. I stayed up late last night reading through the Logic Stage section of TWTM. I'll have a fifth grader next year and I'm assessing his Grammar Stage progress and trying to figure out what will change around here when he moves into the Logic Stage. So, yes, outlining of KHE is still recommended.

 

I don't think you'd ruin his education by dropping those activities and assignments that you detest, but I'm afraid you will regret it anyways! You know... once you get it into your mind that there is a particular way you should be doing things, it's hard to just chunk that out. Atleast, that's how I am. I hate to hear that you find HO a bore. To me, it looks so very cool to have everything all laid out like that.

 

Maybe you could just take a break for awhile and see how you feel about it in a few months.

[MIch elle]

Ds pastes the SOTW review cards onto an index card and on the other side writes the important words (italics) w/ definitions on the other side; then puts them on a ring to be studied for the SOTW test. Our outlining is done with IEW Ancient History Based Writing Lessons only.

 

Maybe you could try note cards? Have you looked at IEW History Based Writing Lessons?

[Sunshine State Sue]

I don't think you'd ruin his education by dropping those activities and assignments that you detest, but I'm afraid you will regret it anyways! You know... once you get it into your mind that there is a particular way you should be doing things, it's hard to just chunk that out. Atleast, that's how I am.

 

Therein lies my anguish. I'm such of a follow the directions kind of a person, particularly when I'm not in my small area of expertise.

[Rhondabee]

I heard SWB speak in Atlanta this summer, and she no longer recommends outlining from KHE, but using it to take notes. And, that the DC would write down *every* date from KHE into the timeline.

 

Then, after notes (and I guess looking at maps - she recommended Geographica, I think?) the student evaluates whether or not there is something there *he* thinks is interesting enough to investigate further.

 

If so, she put a lot of emphasis on finding primary sources - mostly online at fordham.edu since that's free. She really made the case that reading primary sources helps the logic stage student learn how history is "done". (Just like in science, the purpose in logic stage is to learn how the various sciences come to conclusions via experiments.)

 

Anyway, she mentioned that *if* the student wants to read further about a subject than the KHE, then you should also choose a 4-6 paragraph section of a non-fiction book to outline. (We did try HO, and their outlining was even worse than having no help with the outline at all, imo.) Probably an encyclopedia article would be good, and handy to find at home.

 

I don't really remember her saying to write reports or essays (but I *am* just going on memory here). I do remember that on the Writing without Fear CD she mentions briefly that the outlines *are* the reports. IDK - that seems to contradict WTM, but so does her new emphasis on not outlining the KHE.

 

I think I deleted all this before because I re-read your post, and it didn't really sound like you would think this was do-able.

 

BUT - what if you tried this between Thanksgiving and Christmas? (If it doesn't work, then you can always go back to HO in January, right?)

 

Day One Assignment: Read a two-page spread in KHE. Take notes - not on everything, just the big ideas. Write down all dates in timeline, and copy any map on the spread (you can use the maps in HO). Decide - what, if anything, do I want to know more about?

 

Day Two Assignment, if there is something more: Do an online search about chosen topic, and read for 30 minutes. Can you find a primary source?

 

Fill in a primary source evaluation if possible. Or, if just reading *about* the topic, write a short report that answers the reporter's questions - or, write a two-point outline. You could use the library, but I'm figuring if you work, online searches would be more doable.

 

(Yeah, you and he might have to sit down the night before and search together the first few times - but my ds was very excited to find a short "How to be successful" article by Andrew Carnegie by himself. And - in his "I'm such a grown-up now" voice told me he would still need to examine the company records to know for sure if he really liked the guy or not - LOLOLOL!!!)

 

This is also where the routine breaks down - because if this is something that really, really interests him, you need to let him have time to really explore it. It also doesn't *have* to always be a report or an outline. And, sometimes he might want to read a biography instead of a short article. This is where you are teaching without a net, and are certain you are going to fail no matter what you do!!!! Just keep breathing, and remember that SWB said you would feel this way, and that's good! You *want* him to go in-depth, because that will fuel his fire for independent learning.

 

Assignment, Day 2, if nothing from Day 1 interested him: REad the next two-page spread in KHE. Take notes, put dates in timeline, copy map. Decide: is there anything *here* that interests me?

 

(Wash, rinse, repeat)

 

And, remember, he's not going to have time to do extra work for *every* spread.

 

You could stack the deck when it comes to extra reading, by using the suggestions at the end of the history chapter in WTM. They are mostly geared toward American History, but they do include primary sources on a number of topics. You could either just keep a correlated list in your files somewhere, and make the assignments when appropriate; or note the books, etc. in your KHE when you want ds to do those before resuming his KHE routine.

 

I think if you all can talk about his assignments, then this could work. It might take a few weeks to work out being able to trust each other, and feel confident that, yes, he's really capable of doing this and making some decisions without you. (Ha - I'm such the hypocrit!!!!! LOL!!! - But, really, if I wasn't trying to finish SOTW 4 this year, this is what I would shoot for. Next year, next year....)

 

My other suggestion would be, if you really want to drop the notebooking entirely, that you add in SL's historical fiction and read alouds from either Core 6 or 7. My kids learned so much from doing that.

 

I hope that helps - I'm afraid it's a bit like a train-wreck!

Edited November 19, 2008 by Rhondabee

[SBP]

I wrote a long reply to this this morning, and it disappeared into the ether when I hit 'submit' :banghead:.

 

I don't have time to recreate it all at the moment, but I did want to suggest that you might want to look at Easy Timeline Creator if the paper timeline is driving you and your DS nuts. I've never been able to keep up with a written timeline (and I've tried several) but my kiddos LOVE adding things to their Easy Timeline Creator timeline. It's neat, easy to read, and easy to use. It's one of the best things we've added this year. :)

 

Best,

 

SBP

[chai]

If it isn't working, don't do it!

 

I am an outlining, notebooking, timeline drop-out. I like all of this in theory, but it wasn't working for us. My dd has no interest in Usborne, Kingfisher type books. I have both of them and they sit on the shelf. I tried outlining, but it was taking the fun out of history. I thought dd would like notebooking--but I was wrong. I would love to do a timeline, but even that was a failure.

 

We still do at least an hour of history each day, but it is almost solely read-aloud and crafts. We discuss our reading and I have a few workbook pages that I found on-line that dd really enjoys. She loves reading the historical fiction and other factual books on each period, but she does that on her own time.

 

DD is learning outlining and doing plenty of writing in language arts--we've just separated that from history. I really did like the idea of combining them, but it wasn't working.

[Katrina]

I have no advice, but I hated HO also for the very reasons you mentioned. (UGH) Good luck.

[Melissa in Australia]

we are really struggling with outlining altogether. I don't know a single person who knows how to outline properly. it isn't something taught in Australia at all. I really don't get outlining myself well enough to explain it to my children. we have been doing the outlining in SOTW 4 , but not really getting the whole thing. I am in the process of ordering some remedial outlining books to help us all. I am wishing I did this a few years ago, as we are going to be starting the Rhetoric stage in January next year( start of school year here) and it seems that outlining is going to play a big part.

we have just been reading kingfisher, and 6 other history encyclopedias, and then writing a 1-2 paragraph report. the kids ARE learning lots of history, which is the whole point.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Our outlining is done with IEW Ancient History Based Writing Lessons only. Have you looked at IEW History Based Writing Lessons?

I love the idea of IEW history based writing lessons, but I've never pursued IEW because it doesn't fit MY learning style. However, we use Write Shop and there teach many ways to brainstorm before writing a paragraph or two. I could certainly attempt to replace the outlining with writing a paragraph instead.

 

I heard SWB speak in Atlanta this summer, and she no longer recommends outlining from KHE, but using it to take notes.

 

BUT - what if you tried this between Thanksgiving and Christmas? (If it doesn't work, then you can always go back to HO in January, right?)

 

Day One Assignment: Read a two-page spread in KHE. Take notes - not on everything, just the big ideas. Write down all dates in timeline, and copy any map on the spread (you can use the maps in HO). Decide - what, if anything, do I want to know more about?

 

Day Two Assignment, if there is something more: Do an online search about chosen topic, and read for 30 minutes. Can you find a primary source?

 

Fill in a primary source evaluation if possible. Or, if just reading *about* the topic, write a short report that answers the reporter's questions - or, write a two-point outline. You could use the library, but I'm figuring if you work, online searches would be more doable.

 

Assignment, Day 2, if nothing from Day 1 interested him: REad the next two-page spread in KHE. Take notes, put dates in timeline, copy map. Decide: is there anything *here* that interests me?

 

Rhondabee,

I actually got that long post via email before you deleted it. Thank you! I'm glad to know that SWB said that taking notes from KHE is good enough. It seems to work better for ds. I think that I would believe that an alien invaded my unmotivated ds's body if he ever found anything in KHE that interested him. However, I could have him research whatever he found the most interesting over the course of a week or two. It's an idea.

 

I did want to suggest that you might want to look at Easy Timeline Creator if the paper timeline is driving you and your DS nuts.

Wow! This looks fabulous! Thank you!

 

If it isn't working, don't do it!

 

I am an outlining, notebooking, timeline drop-out. I like all of this in theory, but it wasn't working for us. My dd has no interest in Usborne, Kingfisher type books. I have both of them and they sit on the shelf. I tried outlining, but it was taking the fun out of history. I thought dd would like notebooking--but I was wrong. I would love to do a timeline, but even that was a failure.

 

DD is learning outlining and doing plenty of writing in language arts--we've just separated that from history. I really did like the idea of combining them, but it wasn't working.

Thank you for the permission. Even when we did SOTW, which we loved, the writing aspect was ds's least favorite part. It seems like he would enjoy history more if the writing aspect was less. We do other writing as well.

 

I have no advice, but I hated HO also for the very reasons you mentioned. (UGH) Good luck.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone!:)

[keptwoman]

I could have written your post word-for-word.

HO is BORING and outlining KFH has sucked the life out of history for DS. I know that outlining is important to learn. But it doesn't need to happen day after day after day!!

Likewise the notebooking is dull dull dull. DS writes the assignments and files and forgets. If we hadn't lost our timeline when we moved in August it would have run out of room to write more a few months ago and was too messy and confusing anyway. I just don't know that he is retaining much.

The one highlight for me with HO has been the reading. J has read at least 14 books this year wrapped around his history studies and really enjoyed them and learnt heaps from them.

 

I like the thoroughness of HO but in practice it's just boring. There are things in this world that we just have to do but I don't want history to be in that category. I want DS to enjoy it/be passionate about it/love it.

 

We work a Feb-Dec school year and we have ditched HO for the rest of the year. I asked DS to read through the Tudors section of KFH and decide who and what he thought was interesting enough to look into further. He is spending 4 weeks researching the Tudors. We have sat together and decided what we think is necessary and interesting and it took us about 10 minutes. So far he has done a family tree and timeline. Now he is researching the beginning of the Tudor period. After that he will look at George VIII and Elizabeth I. We will be leaving out much of the Renaissance but what he does know he will know well. I'm also looking for some good fiction to read.

 

For next year we are buying Speilvogels Western Civilisation. He will be reading that through and looking deeper into things that appeal to him. Actually it was the US focus to the detriment of the rest of the world in Early Modern that really put me off HO for next year because I liked the scope and sequence. I will expect less writing and much more reading. Finding the reading would be SO much easier if we were from the US but I want him to learn World History not US history and so many of the reading lists for Early Modern seem to focus on the US. However that is the plan. I know that he wants to look particularly at exploration and colonisation and that's fine with me.

 

The only thing I will miss about HO is the writing. I've decided that there are other ways to learn good writing.

[LanaTron]

Ugh! I am sorry to read all this...I had planned to use HO after SOTW 4...back to the drawing board it looks like.