Starting at the End - Classics in the 12th year only

[Deirdre Anne]

We've recently withdrawn our 17 yo from public school just before the beginning of his 12th year. While he was homeschooled in 1st and 2nd grades and attended German school in 3rd thru 5th grades (including a year of Gymnasium), he has been in a Maryland public school ever since and has not thrived there, though he has done OK academically he hated it and had to be forced to apply himself to it in order to avoid failing for lack of interest. In attempting to salvage what we can of his education and hope to try to rebuild a little of his love (or at least tolerance) for learning, we're starting more or less fresh in the final year and want to give him a taste of a classical education. His high school education has largely ignored the ancients and he seems to enjoy them, so we are thinking of having him work on some of the ancients in the first half of the year, though we're not sure diving straight into Aristotle is going to be enjoyable at all for him. We're thinking maybe some of the intermediate material would be more likely to bring success (as well as provide the possibility of introducing non-western classics). 

We're concerned about the lack of any formal background in grammar and logic and struggling to come up with a plan for writing because of this. We're trying him on Analytical Grammar and Morrow & Weston simultaneously in an attempt to hybridize the elements of classical study. Looked at Stewart English Program and liked it but it appears to be out of print, with a couple of student books republished, unsure if there is any difference other than the full-color animal on the front or if they can be used with the old teacher books.

Has anyone else tried to start homeschooling by the classical method in the 12th year (or even in the 11th)? What suggestions do you have?

 

[Farrar]

For a student that age, I think the most key question to ask is whether or not he's on board with this plan and to what extent?

[Lori D.]

Agreeing with Farrar, and I'd add another question: What are the plans/goals for post-high school?

Usually, if heading to college, much of 12th grade (even in homeschooling) is consumed by college applications, testing, finishing up required courses, sometimes dual enrollment, and taking coursework of high interest and prep for the career field or college program the student is considering.

In fact, if planning on college, at the end of this school year, this is almost too *late* to get started with the college search process, as for best chances at admission and scholarships for competitive schools, there are early application deadlines of mid-Oct (just 5 weeks away) or mid-Nov.

In answer to your specific question about starting classical education in 12th grade -- unless the student is remedial in Writing and you think that a Grammar review would improve Writing, I would not spend time on Grammar at this point, and instead, devote time to a Formal Logic program (to aid developing thinking and analysis skills), writing essays of various types and a research paper with citations, and reading/discussing classic works of Literature in conjunction with History/Geography studies. But all of that is moot if the student is not on-board with a traditional classical education. At age 17, a lot of students are just ready to be *done* with high school and move on to the next stage of life.?

And if the main goal is to rebuild a love of learning, I would probably design a series of courses around the student's particular interests and let the student enjoy running with them, and go deep -- whether the topics were traditional, classical courses or not. For example, if the student enjoys sci-fi literature, then build a course around classic works of Sci-Fi and dig deep into questions of ethics, technology, etc. Classical education is about developing thinking/analyzing skills and rhetoric skills (speaking/writing about those insights and analyses), and a student is much more apt to develop those skills around a topic of high interest.

And, just a note of hope: classical education does not have to end at high school graduation -- or even have happened at all in high school. Colleges require gen. ed. courses in the Humanities. And as adults, we can continue to read and study, listen to lecture series (like the Teaching Company), and take free MOOC courses to encourage continuing to learn. So there's a whole lifetime ahead of DS (and you! (:D ) for exploring classics and to keep learning. ?

Wishing you all the BEST in your family's home education adventures for 12th grade! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Lori D.

[Matryoshka]

I'll agree with the others.  To rekindle love of learning in a kid this age, it needs to be what they think they'd love to learn.  There's no harm in suggesting topics, but if he isn't enthusiastic, forcing it will likely turn him off further.  Especially from parents.  Amazing with teens how the exact same suggestion coming from someone other than mom is awesome and exciting, when it was mom's suggestion it was stupid and met with eye-rolls.  

I might see if you can sign him up for any CC classes.  They have them on so many topics - hands-on as well as academic - that might be a good way to see what he's interested in.  Someone else pointed out that if a 4-year college is in the picture, it's already almost late to start applications (especially with a currently blank transcript for senior year).  Taking classes at the CC would be a good way to get his toe into college classes, and maybe he could continue there rather than starting at a 4-year.

And I'll agree with it's never too late for the classics.  I wasn't a strict classical homeschooler, but we did do some Logic and Philosophy for Kids, and my kids pretty much just tolerated it.  Two of my kids still have no interest - but the third... she went off to college and took Intro to Logic just because her school required it as a GenEd - she did not want to take it.  But then she loved it.  So much that now she's a Logic tutor and one of her majors is Philosophy.  

I also find it hard to believe that he has no grounding in Grammar if he went to Gymnasium.  German schools do a lot of grammar, and German grammar is way more complicated than English.  He must have some clue.  Has he kept up his German at all?

[Lori D.]

On 9/9/2018 at 5:27 PM, Deirdre Anne said:

... His high school education has largely ignored the ancients and he seems to enjoy them, so we are thinking of having him work on some of the ancients in the first half of the year, though we're not sure diving straight into Aristotle is going to be enjoyable at all for him. We're thinking maybe some of the intermediate material would be more likely to bring success (as well as provide the possibility of introducing non-western classics). 

Coming back to this thread in order to focus on this statement and to help with lit. ideas specific for this.

We did ancient history/lit. when DSs were grades 8 & 9, and were new to a more formal literature study/Great Books study ala WTM. Because of this, I chose to stick with more "story-like" works to maintain interest, so we covered:
- 4 major epics (Gilgamesh (Mesopotamian), Iliad and Odyssey (Greek), and Aeneid (Roman, but about Greek characters))
- several Greek plays (esp. Oedipus the King since that is so often referenced)
- and Greek myths (esp. those characters and stories that are most frequently referenced )
- plus, Till We Have Faces (CS Lewis) -- a 20th century novel that does a terrific job of contrasting ancient Pagan beliefs with Greek rationality, and how Christian theology encompasses / supersedes both -- all done as a re-telling of the Cupid and Psyche myth set in ancient Mesopotamia

Perhaps a similar idea -- focusing on more "story-like" works (myths, epics, plays), rather than the philosophy (Aristotle, Plato), might be an interesting "in" for your DS to start classical studies? Also, those Ancient Greek epics and myths are very frequently referenced in modern culture and even in our everyday language (a "Sisyphean task", "tantalizing" (from Tantalus), having the "Golden Touch" (King Midas), etc.).

Several video and computer games make heavy use of ancient mythology and characters as well, so World mythology could already be of interest to your DS, if he is a "gamer". ?

BEST of luck in deciding what works to do! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

And... Because I can't help myself, LOL, I'm back again with one more idea. Which is to suggest: rather than a classical focus, what about a World Cultures/Geography and Comparative Religions focus -- esp. of Eastern Hemisphere nations. That will allow you to focus on a bit of ancient and contemporary non-Western lit. to go along with the study, but will also give your student a bit of a "window of understanding" into current world events.

Just a thought!

Edited September 11, 2018 by Lori D.

[Farrar]

I just realized that this is the same OP who is trying to be sure to do both Western and non-Western classics. You have one year - a year that has already started and that should ideally involve making decisions about colleges and going through the application process. I guess I'm just... concerned. There are amazing colleges that are focused on these topics if they're of interest to your son. Have you considered St. John's, for example?

[Deirdre Anne]

22 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I just realized that this is the same OP who is trying to be sure to do both Western and non-Western classics. You have one year - a year that has already started and that should ideally involve making decisions about colleges and going through the application process. I guess I'm just... concerned. There are amazing colleges that are focused on these topics if they're of interest to your son. Have you considered St. John's, for example?

I have more than one child. ? The others are in public school at the moment but I anticipate that changing and, in any case, I'll be augmenting. This one only brought me to look at the lists of Great Books. I agree it's not practical to cover a lot of material with him. Though, at the same time, I know that I had a particular interest in Eastern literature in my late teens and was frustrated by the lack of support there was for that (which at the time was pretty much maxed out at parental help getting to Waldenbooks! Teachers were of little help). Had I had more support in this area, I think I might have gone on to study it formally.

Additionally, this child is not likely to go directly into college. This year, and possibly next will be recovery years, with the possibility of travel abroad next year.

[Deirdre Anne]

On 9/10/2018 at 3:22 PM, Matryoshka said:

I'll agree with the others.  To rekindle love of learning in a kid this age, it needs to be what they think they'd love to learn.  There's no harm in suggesting topics, but if he isn't enthusiastic, forcing it will likely turn him off further.  Especially from parents.  Amazing with teens how the exact same suggestion coming from someone other than mom is awesome and exciting, when it was mom's suggestion it was stupid and met with eye-rolls.  

I might see if you can sign him up for any CC classes.  They have them on so many topics - hands-on as well as academic - that might be a good way to see what he's interested in.  Someone else pointed out that if a 4-year college is in the picture, it's already almost late to start applications (especially with a currently blank transcript for senior year).  Taking classes at the CC would be a good way to get his toe into college classes, and maybe he could continue there rather than starting at a 4-year.

And I'll agree with it's never too late for the classics.  I wasn't a strict classical homeschooler, but we did do some Logic and Philosophy for Kids, and my kids pretty much just tolerated it.  Two of my kids still have no interest - but the third... she went off to college and took Intro to Logic just because her school required it as a GenEd - she did not want to take it.  But then she loved it.  So much that now she's a Logic tutor and one of her majors is Philosophy.  

I also find it hard to believe that he has no grounding in Grammar if he went to Gymnasium.  German schools do a lot of grammar, and German grammar is way more complicated than English.  He must have some clue.  Has he kept up his German at all?

OK, he probably does have grounding in grammar but it's very rusty and I really have no idea how much he had. There's a lot you can do in English, too, that you can't do in most other European languages in their formal forms. He has not, unfortunately, kept up on his German. It's really too bad as he spoke technically perfect German for his age and it was a huge surprise to us when his fourth grade Grundschule teacher told us he was eligible. Many native speakers in his class did not qualify. 

I agree, he needs to be on board with this. At the moment, I'm really trying different baits to see if he bites at any of them. Trying not to shove anything down his throat as that's what we're specifically trying to get away from.

I wish I'd had more logic as a kid, or even just more philosophy in general in undergrad. I tell everyone who asks me about going to law school (I'm an attorney among other things) that Philosophy is the best pre-law program there is. Logic will improve your LSAT score and probably help in classes like Contracts particularly. Ethics will make Torts so much easier to grok and generally make you a better lawyer. Both will improve writing. I was fortunate to finish my undergrad at a Jesuit school, which basically required a minor in philosophy and religion; I could have used a lot more though.

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, Deirdre Anne said:

I have more than one child. ? The others are in public school at the moment but I anticipate that changing and, in any case, I'll be augmenting...
... Additionally, this child is not likely to go directly into college. This year, and possibly next will be recovery years, with the possibility of travel abroad next year.

Ah, that is also crucial info for people to be able to provide helpful ideas. ?

Sounds like 2 different plans might be needed here: one for the high schooler (recovery and completion of high school), and another plan for the middle schoolers (either after-schooling supplementation, or a possible full-on transition to homeschool high school).
 

2 hours ago, Deirdre Anne said:

OK, he probably does have grounding in grammar but it's very rusty and I really have no idea how much he had. There's a lot you can do in English, too, that you can't do in most other European languages in their formal forms...

I am guessing that what you are referring to with the variety in English has to do with Writing: sentence structure and order for the various types of phrases and clauses, so I am guessing that your goal might more likely be achieved through an English program that covers both Writing and Grammar. Or through a stand-alone Writing program. (Stand-alone Grammar programs typically cover topics such as parts of speech; GUM (grammar usage & mechanics -- things like capitalization, punctuation, and subject/verb agreement); and diagramming.)

At this late high school stage, and with a student "burned out" on formal/traditional schooling, you may get more bang for your buck by just discussing Grammar as needed in context of his Writing. Also, for some students, when Grammar is studies as a stand-alone subject, they don't make the connection and "translate" what was learned in Grammar over into their Writing or into help in learning a foreign language. Don't know if you have read The Well-Trained Mind, but Susan Wise-Bauer recommends Rod & Staff  English. I understand that the grade 8 program is rigorous and can be used into high school. There is also a grade 9 and grade 10 level. All of them incorporate both Grammar and Writing. The English Handbook might be all you need for your 12th grader for review, and for seeing different types of sentence structures.
 

... he needs to be on board with this. At the moment, I'm really trying different baits to see if he bites at any of them. Trying not to shove anything down his throat as that's what we're specifically trying to get away from...

I wish I'd had more logic as a kid, or even just more philosophy in general ... Both will improve writing...

If a Philosophy or Logic text or course is not feasible with DS right now, perhaps consider involvement in a Speech & Debate group, or the YMCA Youth & Government program (write legislative bills and debate bills). Learning to support your opinions and think logically are practiced in a more informal and enjoyable "hands-on" way while having social interaction with other students, and developing those skills in oral communication will transfer over into the student's writing.

BEST of luck in finding what fits with, and encourages, DS. Warmest regards, Lori D.