After LAoW? High School Writing progression?

[MamaSprout]

I'm sure this has been touched on, but I've searched a couple of different ways, and not having any luck. I did read Ruth's mega writing assessment thread.

 

I'm helping with a co-op writing and literature class. We're still struggling a little to pick literature, but know we want to use LAoW for spring. We've used it before and have our own prompts so there is less drag racing and folk singing....

 

Anyhow, the question is what then?

 

We have They Say, I Say and  Writing with a Thesis. These both look good, but I think are college level, so we probably need something in between LAoW and either of those. I also need to read them cover to cover to make sure there isn't any "adult" content, as is sometimes the case with college texts.

 

I was laughing out loud at the "Exploding Toilet" essay in the WwaTh book last night. DH thought I was slap happy. There doesn't seem to be any essay assignments in either, though, more of evaluation. These kids need to write and write some more at this point.

 

Other possibilities:

Put that in Writing- Ouch! price seems high if it's a student text. http://www.rainbowresource.com/viewpict.php?pid=039554

 

Academic Writing 1- I've read and agree with 8 Fills assessment, but it is fairly straight forward for a co-op  http://www.rfwp.com/series/writing-program-by-michael-clay-thompson#book-advanced-academic-writing-vol-1-student-book

 

Lost Tools of Writing- The little bit I can see does echo what we tell the students, which is our goal for a book or program- to reinforce what we are teaching. I'm not sure we really need the online videos (and correspondingly higher cost, though.)

 

Our goal is to have these 9th and 10th graders ready to take early college classes in two years.

 

Thoughts on any of these? Did we overlook something?

[MamaSprout]

Maybe I'm approaching this wrong. Do we need anything after Lively Art of Writing? Or should we just have them write?

 

 

[dereksurfs]

Maybe I'm approaching this wrong. Do we need anything after Lively Art of Writing? Or should we just have them write?

 

This is a great question which we are currently wrestling with after completing LAoW last year.  We are now going through LToW with mixed feelings.  At the same time I'm considering just writing more.  You can see my post on it here:  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/542232-lost-tools-of-writing-experiences/page-2

[MamaSprout]

I was looking at SWB's recommendations for WWS http://downloads.peacehillpress.com/samples/pdf/WWEandWWSexplanation.pdf?utm_source=Catalog&utm_medium=Print&utm_content=Page%2B9&utm_campaign=2014%2BCatalog&page=10

 

I've concluded that LAoW probably covers the skills in WWS2 or maybe 3, although I think WWS is more focused on scholarly writing, and LAoW is more focused on persuasive writing. Based on that, she recommends They Say and a Shaum's Research, IEW Basic (high school?) Course- or CAP Writing & Rhetoric 7,8 and 9. Looking at the samples of 6, where they are transitioning into writing full essays, I would think that would be about right. 

 

I'm going to look more closely at Writing with Thesis to see if it works better before or after They Say. At first glance, I think it will work better before. We'll take a look at CAP 7 when it comes out, too. I think CAP has been getting 2-3 levels out per year.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Writing With a Thesis is a nice thing between Lively Art of Writing and They Say/I Say.  At least, that's how we are using it. It does have an explanation of how to do each type of essay, and some suggested essay topics, along with a sample student essay and a set of professional essays on each topic.

 

LAoW and WWS are completely different, I don't think there is much overlap in what they teach, actually.  LAoW teaches the big picture of persuasive writing. WWS doesn't teach persuasive writing at all.  You could actually put WWS and WWaT together if you wanted the level of detail in WWS, with the big picture/Whole to parts aspect oof WWaT, and to make WWS more appropriate for a persuasive writing course.  Here is what it might look like to combine WWaT with the topoi taught in WWS:

 

Writing With a Thesis Chapters/WWS Topoi

Chapter 2 - Narration

1.       Chronological Narrative of a Past Event

2.       Chronological Narrative of a Scientific Discovery

Chapter 3 - Description

1.       Description of a Place

2.       Scientific Description –

3.       Description of a Person –

4.       Biographical Sketch –

5.       Sequence: Natural Process

6.       Sequence: History

Chapter 4 - Examples

Chapter 5 - Process

1.       Instructional Sequence

2.       Experimental Sequence –

Chapter 6 - Comparison & Contrast

1.       Explanation by Comparison/Contrast –

2.       Temporal Comparison: History –

3.       Temporal Comparison: Science

Chapter 7 - Cause & Effect

1.       Narrative by significance of a Past Event –

2.       Explanation by Cause & Effect in History

3.       Explanation by Cause & Effect in Science –

4.       Chapter 8 - Division & Classification

Chapter 9 – Definition

1.       Explanation by Definition: Natural Object or Phenomenon

2.       Explanation by Definition: Historical Object, Event, place, People, or Group

Chapter 10 – Argumentation

·         A Rulebook for Arguments

·         They Say/I Say

 

 

I thought the suggestion to use CAP W&R in high school was odd, given that those levels haven't been released yet and it's not clear that they are high school level materials - they are intended by the publisher to go through 8th grade.  Of the levels I've seen, I feel like they would be a step backward after completing LAoW, WWS 1-3, or WWaT.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Since you asked about progression, specifically, here's what we are doing:

 

1) Lively Art of Writing

2) Writing With a Thesis

3) Rulebook for Arguments

4) They Say/I Say

5) New Oxford Guide to Writing + Schaum's Research paper guide SWB recommended

 

That's the current plan, although I may insert this book in there either after They Say or after New Oxford guide - 8FilltheHeart turned me on to it, but I don't have a copy yet:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312676840?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_4&smid=A317YISDMRJIZA

 

[MamaSprout]

I thought the suggestion to use CAP W&R in high school was odd, given that those levels haven't been released yet and it's not clear that they are high school level materials - they are intended by the publisher to go through 8th grade.  Of the levels I've seen, I feel like they would be a step backward after completing LAoW, WWS 1-3, or WWaT.

 

I am using W&Rh with my sixth grade natural writer right now. I have a love/ hate relationship with it... But I do occasionally pull things out of it for my high school students who aren't yet writing essays. It drives me crazy, but it works. On the advice of someone else, we completely skipped book 4 without so much as a hiccup. I am a little happier with it now that we are starting essays. It feels like progress. It's so full, I'm still puzzling over literature to go with it, but that's another post!

[MamaSprout]

Since you asked about progression, specifically, here's what we are doing:

 

1) Lively Art of Writing

2) Writing With a Thesis

3) Rulebook for Arguments

4) They Say/I Say

5) New Oxford Guide to Writing + Schaum's Research paper guide SWB recommended

 

That's the current plan, although I may insert this book in there either after They Say or after New Oxford guide - 8FilltheHeart turned me on to it, but I don't have a copy yet:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312676840?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_4&smid=A317YISDMRJIZA

 

Okay, Rose. Thank-you. I think.  :huh:  More books to research.  :)  Quick question. Does Rulebook for Arguments cover largely the same material as Art of Argument? Can I cover logic and writing at the same time?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I'm not sure, I don't have a copy of Art of Argument any longer, but Rulebook for Arguments is a short book, and it's in WTM I think as a suggestion for logic for 8th grade, and in one talk or other when SWB mentioned it, she did specifically say that it is one of her logic recommendations, but also useful for Rhetoric. So I think the answer is yes.  That's kind of why it appeals to me, too, also that it is very short and concise. We're going to hit it alongside or after the Argumentation chapter (the last chapter) of WWaT, before diving into They Say.  So probably later this year.

[SilverMoon]

I also thought Writing With a Thesis was a nice middle-ground between Lively Art and They Say I Say. There aren't direct assignments, no. We've been making them up as we go along, tying it to whatever they were studying in other subjects, or SAT essay prompts if I simply can't think of a way to apply it to their other subjects. Like DD just covered a WWaT section that discussed using repetition without monotony to drive a thesis home. So we found a topic and she practiced using repetition intentionally. Some of the topics leave both of us feeling uninspired, so we just discuss them for what they're worth and move on. I'm glad now that I didn't make a firm schedule for this book; we've really enjoyed keeping it more fluid.

[MamaSprout]

This is a good thread! We talked and looked over some of the potentials (we've seen most of these at one time or another, or got them at the library yesterday). We both like the ones below, and because we trade off teaching sometimes and both teach sometimes, having good spine books is really important.

 

I think we're going to go with something like this, with each line equaling about a semester:

 

Lively Art of Writing with our modified workbook

Writing with a Thesis + prompts from 501 Writing Prompts (the grading rubric is super handy)

Rulebook for Arguments + SAT or AP essay prompts

They Say + short research reports

Shaum's Research Paper + long research paper

 

At that point, we think they'll be ready for freshman comp at the community college. I really like how the cost is so reasonable on these. I spent some more time with Writing with a Thesis yesterday, and think it will be easy to teach, and good for generating discussion.

[Chrysalis Academy]

This is a good thread! We talked and looked over some of the potentials (we've seen most of these at one time or another, or got them at the library yesterday). We both like the ones below, and because we trade off teaching sometimes and both teach sometimes, having good spine books is really important.

 

I think we're going to go with something like this, with each line equaling about a semester:

 

Lively Art of Writing with our modified workbook

Writing with a Thesis + prompts from 501 Writing Prompts (the grading rubric is super handy)

Rulebook for Arguments + SAT or AP essay prompts

They Say + short research reports

Shaum's Research Paper + long research paper

 

At that point, we think they'll be ready for freshman comp at the community college. I really like how the cost is so reasonable on these. I spent some more time with Writing with a Thesis yesterday, and think it will be easy to teach, and good for generating discussion.

 

Looks like a great lineup.  WwaT is a great little book, one of my favorites. It is easy to use and flexible.  It's helped us to really focus on the purpose of each piece, whatever form that piece might take.

[dereksurfs]

This is all great information.  I'm going to have to consider this more as we also prepare for Luke's first college English course while in HS.

 

Thank you for sharing your thought processes as your writing plans evolve.  

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Don't forget about the Workbook that now goes with Weston...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Workbook-Arguments-Complete-Critical-Thinking/dp/1603845496/ref=pd_sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0ZBFZDQ89W7KVGVRPXH8&dpID=61JEX%2BFMonL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR124%2C160_

[JoJosMom]

I'm not sure, I don't have a copy of Art of Argument any longer, but Rulebook for Arguments is a short book, and it's in WTM I think as a suggestion for logic for 8th grade, and in one talk or other when SWB mentioned it, she did specifically say that it is one of her logic recommendations, but also useful for Rhetoric. So I think the answer is yes.  That's kind of why it appeals to me, too, also that it is very short and concise. We're going to hit it alongside or after the Argumentation chapter (the last chapter) of WWaT, before diving into They Say.  So probably later this year.

 

 

Don't forget about the Workbook that now goes with Weston...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Workbook-Arguments-Complete-Critical-Thinking/dp/1603845496/ref=pd_sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0ZBFZDQ89W7KVGVRPXH8&dpID=61JEX%2BFMonL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR124%2C160_

 

My best friend Amazon and I thank you both! :laugh:

[Chrysalis Academy]

I have both the short, original version of Rulebook for Arguments and the longer, workbook version, A Workbook for Arguments.  I'll have to take a look at Workbook again, but my original sense was that it might be too much for my 8th grader.  I'm thinking we might work through the Rulebook this year, as we start to focus on persuasive writing in preparation for high school, and save the Workbook for later.  Susan, are you guys recommending the Workbook for 8th graders in the new edition of WTM? Or in general?  

[Chrysalis Academy]

Don't forget about the Workbook that now goes with Weston...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Workbook-Arguments-Complete-Critical-Thinking/dp/1603845496/ref=pd_sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0ZBFZDQ89W7KVGVRPXH8&dpID=61JEX%2BFMonL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR124%2C160_

 

 

I have both the short, original version of Rulebook for Arguments and the longer, workbook version, A Workbook for Arguments.  I'll have to take a look at Workbook again, but my original sense was that it might be too much for my 8th grader.  I'm thinking we might work through the Rulebook this year, as we start to focus on persuasive writing in preparation for high school, and save the Workbook for later.  Susan, are you guys recommending the Workbook for 8th graders in the new edition of WTM? Or in general?  

[MamaSprout]

I have both the short, original version of Rulebook for Arguments and the longer, workbook version, A Workbook for Arguments.  I'll have to take a look at Workbook again, but my original sense was that it might be too much for my 8th grader.  I'm thinking we might work through the Rulebook this year, as we start to focus on persuasive writing in preparation for high school, and save the Workbook for later.  Susan, are you guys recommending the Workbook for 8th graders in the new edition of WTM? Or in general?  

 

I would be curious, too. In my case, this would be for 10th and 11th graders. The workbook might have greater depth?

[Chrysalis Academy]

I would be curious, too. In my case, this would be for 10th and 11th graders. The workbook might have greater depth?

 

I wouldn't hesitate to try it with 10th and 11th graders. I'm just thinking my 8th grader probably isn't quite there yet.  It goes deeper, expands, and provides exercises for all the rules introduced in the Rulebook.  It is subtitled "A Complete Course in Critical Thinking" which I think it is.  Rulebook is not - it's a good short introduction to different types of arguments, but not nearly so comprehensive as the Workbook.

 

I'm happy SWB reminded me about it, though! It's one of the books in my teetering stack, and I definitely would like to fit it in to the progression at some point.  Elladarcy, if you do end up using it I would love to hear how it goes.