Dual credit and then take the AP Exam?

[Wordsworth]

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere...trying to get my feet wet with actually posting instead of just lurking. 

My general sense is that CC dual credit/dual enrollment has the benefit of giving the student experience with an actual college class - meeting professor's expectations, working with a syllabus, etc. And that AP Classes are more consistently accepted by top-tier colleges in terms of awarding actual credit. (I MAY BE WRONG!)

I've taught at a private high school so I am pretty familiar with the AP route; not as familiar with dual credit/enrollment. What I'm wondering is if any of you have had your kids take a class at a CC, particularly a science class in order to have lab work, and then take the AP Exam for that subject. It seems like a bad idea because the deadlines and tests for the in-person class might not line up with the window of time for really prepping for and taking the AP Exam. But has anyone tried that?

(Edit to blanket this original post with disclaimers that I am not putting down CC at all or trying to rehash AP-versus-CC discussions that have gone before. Just generally clueless about CC.)

[Lori D.]

..trying to get my feet wet with actually posting instead of just lurking...

 

Welcome! :)

 

 

..My general sense is that CC dual credit/dual enrollment has the benefit of giving the student experience with an actual college class - meeting professor's expectations, working with a syllabus, etc. And that AP Classes are more consistently accepted by top-tier colleges in terms of awarding actual credit.

 

Well yes and no. :laugh:  This is such a "it all depends" topic. ;) It depends on:

- what the AP score is 

- what the specific university's policy is re: awarding credit for AP

- which community college (CC) for dual enrollment (some have a high transferability for credits, other CCs do not)

- what the specific university's policy is re: accepting transfer credits

- what are the reasons for doing AP or dual enrollment -- admissions? scholarships? reduce in advance the total time at (and hence cost of) a 4-year university degree? (AP, dual enrollment, and even CLEP tests all can play a role here, depending on your answers)

 

It would be important to know the specific plans of the student:

 

- The student needs/wants to go to a specific university? (what are the policies for AP and dual enrollment)

- The student needs/wants to a specific degree program -- and so getting AP or dual enrollment college credit for science is important?

- And does the degree program ALLOW for getting that science credit in high school?

- Is the desire for college credit to show advanced level of work to increase admission rate to a selective school? (then AP is most likely to help there, although if the student has done a number of dual enrollment classes from a quality CC, that, too is looked on favorably by admissions)

- Is the desire for college credit while still in high school financially based? (i.e., reduce total time at the university and hence, reduce total cost)

- If so, then dual enrollment or CLEP tests (if accepted by the 4-year university) may be much easier to accomplish -- and may be cheaper than AP (CLEP tests are $80/test + test center fee; some areas have free dual enrollment tuition options for high school students)

 

 

..What I'm wondering is if any of you have had your kids take a class at a CC, particularly a science class in order to have lab work, and then take the AP Exam for that subject. It seems like a bad idea because the deadlines and tests for the in-person class might not line up with the window of time for really prepping for and taking the AP Exam. But has anyone tried that?

 

Some universities require several SAT Subject tests for admissions, so if your student is already taking the AP test, it's never a bad idea to have them also go ahead and take the SAT Subject test for that same subject at the same time.

 

Overlapping AP science and dual enrollment science would probably require extra studying on the part of the student to make sure they are covering all of the topics that will be on the AP test -- as the dual enrollment course will likely be covering different topics. So, JMO, but there would need to be a pretty compelling reason for doing both.

 

If the 4-year university that the student will be heading to accepts that community college's dual enrollment science as dual credit, then the extra time and $$ of also doing an AP science test would likely not be worth it.

 

If the community college classes do not have a good reputation or high transferability (to help show advanced level of work for admissions, but also for finances of reducing university costs through dual credit), then I would not bother with dual enrollment, but would instead focus on AP (admissions, possible scholarships, possible college credit), and/or CLEP tests (financial savings through early college credit).

 

If the student is going to apply to a selective school that will be looking for APs for admission purposes, then it may be best to focus all the time & $$ on just doing the AP test and scoring high to look good for admissions.

 

If the student wants to get through a 4-year degree more quickly and/or more cheaply (by doing some college credits while still in high school), then I would look at dual enrollment and CLEP tests rather than AP tests (longer to do, only offered once per year, college credit not a guarantee).

 

 

All that said, doing both AP science test and a dual enrollment science at your CC may be the best choice for your particular student! :) BEST of luck in deciding. Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[Wordsworth]

Gosh, thank you for providing such a comprehensive response! The student in question is only in eighth grade right now, but I'm feeling like I need to have a good grasp of our options for high school. He currently says he wants to go to MIT...based on knowing that is a prestigious college. Who knows where he will eventually set his sights, but our goal is that if he continues to work hard, he will have the opportunity to go to a top-tier college based on his high school transcript, however that transcript comes together. Having come from the private school world I translate that in my head to "take a good load of AP courses and get a 4 or 5 on every test" but I am exploring other options, as well. I think he's going to be pretty STEM-focused and so if we homeschool high school, I want those courses to be particularly strong. 

As a high school student, I took several AP courses and did well on the exams, which helped a great deal with admissions to various colleges and scholarships. While I did use the credit earned in high school to start as a sophomore in college, the real benefit to me was in earning the scholarship; I ended up spending four years there and getting a double degree instead of graduating early. I feel like it's a much different ball game now, though.

[G5052]

It really depends (like so many college-related issues).

 

Locally, the high school offers dual enrollment classes linked to the community college that also prepare the students for the AP exam.  Homeschoolers can take those on a space-available basis, but I looked into it, and they already had waiting lists when I called.  We ended up doing some dual enrollment at the actual college and some online AP classes.

 

I used to teach CSC 201 (Computer Science I) at the community college, and my boss and I carefully lined up our class to match AP expectations.  So we had a good number of dual enrollment students.  We revised the course every summer and our students did very well on the AP (all 4's and 5's among those who reported back). 

 

However, not every college does that. Now I work for a second community college, and I can tell you that their CSC 201 does not line up. It's very close, and a student would probably do well, but it's not intended for that. Because our 16-week schedule is January - April with finals in very early May, the schedule would work, and we have 8-week and 12-week sessions that could be time so that the student would have some study time before the exam. And of course computer science is not the only subject with varying length classes (just so you know).

[dirty ethel rackham]

Not all dual enrollment has to be through a community college.  If you live in an area that has 4-year colleges that have programs for high school kids to take college classes, that may be a better option. We have a 4-year liberal arts college in our town that has a program for highschoolers to take classes their for about the same price as the community college.  But, the classes are much higher quality and have a better transfer rate, despite our CC having an excellent reputation in our state.  (We don't have free dual enrollment community college.)  I would not add an AP exam to a dual-enrolled class unless the syllabus lined up well with the AP syllabus and that you had plenty of practice with an AP style exam.  Otherwise, it would like taking two classes.  Also, keep in mind that sometimes, one AP class may cover as much material as two college classes (case in point - US History is often taught at the college level in two classes.)

 

For us, we weren't aiming for the top tier schools because we needed merit money to make anything other than community college possible.  Also, despite the fact that my kids were probably smart enough, the high pressure environments were not a good fit for them.  Our goal with both AP and dual enrollment was to strengthen the transcript to boost merit aid.  Any college credit was gravy.   Most of the higher tiered schools stated that they did not offer credit  for AP/DE for courses in the major, but would use them for placement.  However, since my science major kids took their science major classes at a 4 year college, rather than AP or the CC, they did end up getting credit.  

[snowbeltmom]

If you are aiming for highly selective schools, the advice I was given by multiple people, including the director of admissions of our local community college, was that  if you take a course at the community college, that the student should also take the corresponding AP exam. 

 

You may want to search for some of Muttichen's posts as her children have been accepted at top-tier schools, and she had them take AP exams after taking a community college class.

[Lori D.]

… The student in question is only in eighth grade right now, but I'm feeling like I need to have a good grasp of our options for high school. He currently says he wants to go to MIT...based on knowing that is a prestigious college... 

 

While it's great to shoot for top tier schools, understand that all of them are highly competitive and have a low admission rate because of the high volume of students applying. So be sure to ALSO prepare for and apply to a few less competitive schools that the student would ALSO be happy at.

 

For example 8FillTheHeart has a DS attending a state public university who is extremely happy there because the specific STEM program he is interested in is very strong at that state school. The school has a higher acceptance rate and a lower tuition rate than many top tier schools, graduates of the program are highly-sought for jobs, and the specific program was well-endowed so they had merit aid to give to this young man. A win-win-win situation! :)

 

For a quick dose of reality, here are the admission statistics for MIT:

- just under 8 out of every 100 students who apply are accepted

- last year, an additional 555 were wait-listed -- only 28 of whom were admitted

- realistically, need an SAT score of 750-800, or ACT of 34-36 to stand a chance of admission

 

 

…  our goal is that if he continues to work hard, he will have the opportunity to go to a top-tier college based on his high school transcript, however that transcript comes together. Having come from the private school world I translate that in my head to "take a good load of AP courses and get a 4 or 5 on every test" but I am exploring other options, as well. I think he's going to be pretty STEM-focused and so if we homeschool high school, I want those courses to be particularly strong. 

 

As a high school student, I took several AP courses and did well on the exams, which helped a great deal with admissions to various colleges and scholarships. While I did use the credit earned in high school to start as a sophomore in college, the real benefit to me was in earning the scholarship; I ended up spending four years there and getting a double degree instead of graduating early. I feel like it's a much different ball game now, though.

 

 

Yes, taking 4 or 5 APs and having high scores on all of them help with admissions. But SO many students are hitting that range, that they no longer really "stand out" if all the student did was focus on academics. Now, a student can be very attractive to admissions by showing they are a good fit with the school through having pursued a variety of personal interests, participated in summer STEM programs, extracurricular involvement, regular volunteer/community service hours, travel, involved in a STEM internship, started own business or pursued unique science/engineering projects, etc.

 

Sometimes something as simple as living out of state from the university gives a student an edge, as usually the school has "quotas" they want to fill of so many in-state, out-of-state, and international students admitted per year.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say overall is: don't put all your hopes on just one school or try to gear all of your high school around getting into one college. Throughout high school, make the most of the homeschooling advantage -- flexibility and the option to help your student pursue passions, and explore interests. Solid skills in math, writing, logic, and critical thinking will get a student admitted into a majority of universities.

 

Allowing for exploration allows your student to perhaps discover a life vocation or at least a life-long love that will be fulfilling to them as an adult. Solid academic skills will open the door to most post-high school education and career options.

 

College costs, scholarships, and financial aid is a whole 'nother topic that has changed dramatically in the past 10 years, with full scholarships now few and far between. Merit aid tends to run more along the lines of 25-50% of tuition, and then there are all the big $$ costs for room & board, fees, books, transportation, and sundry expenses. -- A separate topic to start researching over the next 4 years, and it may require some big-time flexibility in checking out alternatives. ;)

 

Just a few more thoughts to get you started! BEST of luck in your home school high school journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Wordsworth]

Thanks!!!

Yeah, honestly, I think the main benefit of applying to a top-tier school may be knowing "hey, I got into Awesome U (pat self on back)" and then happily matriculating elsewhere at a more reasonably priced/likely-to-give-out-scholarships institution. We are making it clear to our kids that the college source will NOT be about finding the perfect ideal fit for hopes and dreams, but looking at it from a financial perspective and avoiding DEBT as much as they can, while still accomplishing their goals as far as courses of study.  

Just thinking about the college-preparation treadmill sends me to my fainting couch right now...