something to add to age of the earth teaching/discussion

[albeto.]

ok.  going to add one more comment then set this aside.  If a book claims to be fiction, you can read it for inspiration or to enjoy the story, but that's pretty much it.  If it claims to be fact, but makes false statements, then it is of limited use at best.  The Bible presents itself as God's word - facts of history, not just stories to inspire.  Wherever the Bible makes claims about history or science, if it can be proven unequivocally false, then that would move it into the category of myth/not a source of truth to build one's life around.

 

I firmly believe that there's no point in trusting statements in the Bible about who God is or what sort of relationship we are supposed to have with him if He is supposed to be all-knowing, but His book is riddled with errors.

 

So...I know there are some who have posted above that believe that they have already proven the Bible false - if you are correct, then you are right to throw it out.  Others are less confident that the "proofs" against it are objective and accurate so are still on the fence.  And still others have tested and feel confident that they can trust it with their lives. 

 

Given that God is an emotional subject (yes, I realize there are some who conduct science with an open mind, but a large portion of humanity does care very deeply one way or the other), I doubt we will ever reach a time when everyone can agree that the evidence is clearly 100% in support or 100% against the existence of a God or which God it is or what involvement He might have had with our origins.

 

I do, though, think it is worthwhile is for us to share thoughts/ideas - even if we haven't had time to research them thoroughly ourselves - so that others can decide whether to investigate in order to draw their own conclusions.  If you have an open mind, you should never be afraid to hear a view that contradicts your own (I include myself in this).  Instead, it should inspire you to further explorations/studies. 

 

As I at least implied above, I do not pretend to be an expert, nor do I claim to have researched the subject thoroughly.  I just thought I would share an idea that seemed plausible to me and let others decide whether they wanted to examine it in any detail themselves.

 

 

With respect, it's not so much that people are trying to "prove the bible false," it's that various claims in the bible have been found to lack credibility, either because there is no support (the mass exodus from Egypt), or the evidence we have conflicts with it (the age of earth). The scientific method addresses exploring and understanding the natural world. Philosophical ideas that stem from this understanding may or may not incorporate these facts, but when a false claim is made, it's appropriate to offer a correction. This is especially valuable on a forum where home educators come to get support, ideas, and knowledge. It does no one any good to pretend something could be true because we can imagine it that way, or because we've always believed it. We should support each other with reliable information, don't you think? 

[idnib]

Where do the people who say that the trickery is on the part of Satan fit into all this? (Let's call that option {d}, even though I personally would have considered in option {c} is I heard this option much earlier than OP's option {c}).

 

If someone genuinely believes in the Bible, God, YE, and Satan, how does that person differentiate between Satan's trickery (he put fossils there to trick us) and God's "turnkey earth" model?

 

Not that I believe in either of those things, but I just took a shower and I think of these things as "shower thoughts".  :D

[PachiSusan]

I think part of the problem is that some groups of Christianity hold the young earth position because if it's somehow proved false, it will prove their foundation of literalism false because it's no longer "literally" true. It's a matter of salvation: If you believe in evolution, the big bang, or a young earth, you are no longer saved. 

 

Me? I don't see it as a salvation issue, and I don't interpret Genesis literally. For thousands of years the church taught it was an allegory to help people understand God as a creator. The Bible never purported to be a science textbook - it's a book of the faith journey of God and his people and how he wants his followers to live their lives. 

 

That said, there are many many instances where the Bible has been proven to give true and accurate history and geography. That doesn't mean it purports to be a History Treatise or a Geography Tome. The discipline of Biblical Archaeology is fascinating to me. 

 

God is a God of love, of mercy, and yes, of intelligence. I don't see a dichotomy of religion and science. God gave us the tools and the intellect to go on this journey of discovery, and I think he meant for us to do just that. :)

 

Finding out that any of these scientific methods are true will not destroy my faith. God is the creator of all - I just don't believe he gave us a manual of how he did it and exactly how long it took, because I take Genesis as an allegory to teach a great truth: God is the creator of heaven and earth and everything contained in it. 

[In2why]

I usually don't enter these discussions because I do not have deep knowledge and it isn't one of my passions.  But I do enjoy reading the threads and getting more information.

 

So my 2¢ from the cheap seats.   This is my experience and only mine.   When I believed the Bible was the literal word of God, I could not believe in science.  I had to deny it, change it or rationalize it away or I was left with nothing, not even God.  The debate is over.  The facts are unchanging.  The Earth was not, and could not be 6,000- 10,000 years old.  No matter how much I tried to deny it didn't matter.  Facts are facts and beliefs don't and won't change them no matter how long I close my eyes, put my hands over my ears and sing Tra-la-la.    So that left me with science is wrong.......nope scientist only want truth and do not have a collective bias.  God.doesn't exist because the Bible is wrong........nope because we as human beings are created to seek and need a God.  There isn't an evolutionary purpose to seeking and wanting a God, yet we always have and always will, and my God is perfect and the God of the Bible.  That belief isn't factual but there is enough evidence to convince me (the apostles and how they behaved before the resurrection and after)  So logically the only thing left was that my belief system and those that taught me that system were wrong.  That makes the most logical sense because historically the Bible didn't change but the interpretation has many times.  The Bible, thought as the literal word of God was taught and used to support and defend slavery as God's will, and anyone who didn't support slavery was against God.  Those same churches would never use that literal interpretation of the Bible to support slavery today.  God and the Bible wasn't wrong.  Man was wrong.    I believe the same thing about the age of the earth.  Science isn't wrong, the Bible isn't wrong.   So I had to be.   The people teaching young earth have to be.   But I don't blame them or judge them.  If I was only left with the option of believing in God or knowing Science, I would keep denying science without a doubt.  

[PachiSusan]

I usually don't enter these discussions because I do not have deep knowledge and it isn't one of my passions.  But I do enjoy reading the threads and getting more information.

 

So my 2¢ from the cheap seats.   This is my experience and only mine.   When I believed the Bible was the literal word of God, I could not believe in science.  I had to deny it, change it or rationalize it away or I was left with nothing, not even God.  The debate is over.  The facts are unchanging.  The Earth was not, and could not be 6,000- 10,000 years old.  No matter how much I tried to deny it didn't matter.  Facts are facts and beliefs don't and won't change them no matter how long I close my eyes, put my hands over my ears and sing Tra-la-la.    So that left me with science is wrong.......nope scientist only want truth and do not have a collective bias.  God.doesn't exist because the Bible is wrong........nope because we as human beings are created to seek and need a God.  There isn't an evolutionary purpose to seeking and wanting a God, yet we always have and always will, and my God is perfect and the God of the Bible.  That belief isn't factual but there is enough evidence to convince me (the apostles and how they behaved before the resurrection and after)  So logically the only thing left was that my belief system and those that taught me that system were wrong.  That makes the most logical sense because historically the Bible didn't change but the interpretation has many times.  The Bible, thought as the literal word of God was taught and used to support and defend slavery as God's will, and anyone who didn't support slavery was against God.  Those same churches would never use that literal interpretation of the Bible to support slavery today.  God and the Bible wasn't wrong.  Man was wrong.    I believe the same thing about the age of the earth.  Science isn't wrong, the Bible isn't wrong.   So I had to be.   The people teaching young earth have to be.   But I don't blame them or judge them.  If I was only left with the option of believing in God or knowing Science, I would keep denying science without a doubt.  

 

I applaud you. It takes great humility to see that one might just have it wrong and be willing to look at the alternatives. God is unchanging. The Bible is unchanging. The only thing that IS changing is Man and his interpretation of things. 

[Dana]

I applaud you. It takes great humility to see that one might just have it wrong and be willing to look at the alternatives. God is unchanging. The Bible is unchanging. The only thing that IS changing is Man and his interpretation of things. 

 

Actually, depending on translation, the Bible changes a good bit. 

 

I get so annoyed with (in general... not meant as an attack - just using the post to bounce off of) people who seem to think that the English translation of the Bible - and their particular translation - is inerrant.

 

My folks are both ministers. They went through 4 years of seminary to get their MDiv.

They had to take Greek to be able to read the New Testament.

Hebrew was optional for the Old Testament.

 

Mom has a study Bible that has four translations side by side.

 

It is incredibly limiting - and IMO ignorant - to think that one translation is divinely inspired and inerrant.

 

Some of these discussions are ones I remember having with my mother when I was 5 or 6 and she was going through Seminary.... "How is no beginning & no end possible?"

We had some discussions of language etymology.

One thing I really liked was her comment that any language we use necessarily limits God and that God is limitless.

 

The people who say there is one way to salvation or one way to interpret the Bible just wear me out.

The set up of the Bible as in opposition to science just is so absurd. 

It makes God into a trickster and a deceiver.

 

I think so many people who are so clear that their way is the only right way really need to reread what Jesus said about Pharisees.

 

I'm just exhausted by this.

[PachiSusan]

Actually, depending on translation, the Bible changes a good bit. 

 

The people who say there is one way to salvation or one way to interpret the Bible just wear me out.

The set up of the Bible as in opposition to science just is so absurd. 

It makes God into a trickster and a deceiver.

 

I think so many people who are so clear that their way is the only right way really need to reread what Jesus said about Pharisees.

 

I'm just exhausted by this.

 

I was actually commenting more on the content - the Content and Morality of the Bible IS unchanging...but Man changes it's meaning by their misinterpretations, etc...

 

Yes, and the King James Version has so many mis-translations as well it's not even funny.  Then there's the Torah, the Catholic Version, the Protestant Version, The Lego Brick Bible, all the different languages, blah blah blah. All tainted by humans.

 

I still posit that it's not the Bible changing - it doesn't - again it's MAN that is changing what it is - by mistranslating, changing to another language, taking parts out, etc...

 

God's word is unchanging. Man mucks it up time and time again. 

 

And yes, I'm overly exhausted by the bolded as well. 

[Saddlemomma]

I've noticed, while reading this thread, that the word "literal" has popped up a few times.  Here's a good article by str.org which shines some light on the Bible and taking it "literally":  http://www.str.org/articles/do-you-take-the-bible-literally-2#.U5tOMihA3sE

 

A video which may help regarding Bible translations and the differences can be viewed here: http://www.str.org/blog/best-bible-translation-video#.U5tRoShA3sE

 

Finally, just as an aside to those who may be interested, here is an article regarding the reliability of the New Testament texts: http://www.str.org/articles/is-the-new-testament-text-reliable#.U5tjbChA3sE    It's fascinating reading, but to get to the meat of the article, I would suggest skipping down to the heading, "How Many, How Old?"

 

I've enjoyed reading this thread.  I hope these articles can help with the discussion.

[albeto.]

  I hope these articles can help with the discussion.

 

In the same vein, I'd like to share an article that outlines the dangers of teaching creationism. I think as educators, we have a responsibility to teach the next generation the facts, not those ideas that comfort or protect a particular belief. As a public forum, I think every opportunity should be taken to increase the visibility of the necessity to understand and respect the scientific method and the information we have gained from it.

 

The dangers of creationism in education

 

I hope this also helps with the discussion.