logic stage writing (again!): book reports vs. lit. narrations??

[Colleen in NS]

Is there a difference between writing R&S style book reports and writing WTM logic stage style narrations for literature? If so, what do you think the purpose of each is? Which is more useful for preparing for high school writing?

 

I looked in my R&S TM for info. on book reports. The lessons give info. on how to find info. on the setting, how to describe main characters, and how to describe the theme of the story. Also how to write your own evaluation of the story. All of which I'm thinking would be included in a WTM style lit. narration, if I'm understanding the WTM lit. discussion questions correctly.

 

But R&S book report lessons also talk about including publisher and copywrite date, and to name lessons you learned from the book. Also the lessons talk about how book reports should inspire others to read the book. And they also say not to tell the outcome of the story, to leave readers in suspense. Do these points have anything to do with what kids are supposed to be learning through writing narrations? Esp. the part about leaving out the outcome? I thought narrations were partly to be able to identify the main points of a WHOLE story - wouldn't the outcome be included in that? And are the other points necessary in a WTM style narration for any reason?

 

Help me sort this out? :)

[Colleen in NS]

bump

[PeterPan]

I should review the 5th grade recs again, since that's what you're dealing with, but I specifically remember WTM stating that the point of the book retellings in the early grades, then book summaries in 4th, was for them to become book reports in the upper grades. Not to split hairs, but a book report, to my mind, should show the reader that you read the book in entirety. Personally, I'd go so far as to say I think they're stupid, a tool for teachers who can't tell if the student actually read the book or not. But I'm just being blunt, lol. Truthfully though, I've never seen the point. Orneriness aside, a book REVIEW, which for instance might appear in a newspaper or amazon or a dust jacket, should draw the reader into the plot, discuss why they might want to read it (those applications, what they stand to learn, significance), and leave them hanging on the resolution. So to me they're two different genres, and I don't know that I'd do exclusively one or the other, lest you get bored stiff with what is already a tedious task. Are you planning to do one a week? Then I would do 3 the regular way (showing the whole plot) and mix it up with 1 a month in the other format.

 

BTW, did you ever see the link I posted with those cool book report projects? The teacher that posted them (a lady out in Oregon) had some things look cereal boxes and dust jackets and whatnot that would be ideal for presenting your R&S style reports in a more interesting way, if you're into that kind of thing. I printed them off and hope to have my dd do a few this year, probably waiting till January. Her baby break assignment list has her reading a book and writing a book summary each day, so she'll probably be burnt out on it by then, lol.

 

Here's that link http://www2.redmond.k12.or.us/mccall/renz/bookprojects.htm The projects were really cool and she has them all ready to print as pdf's. She connects different types of projects to different genres of books, so that's handy too.

[Mapi]

That book report site looks great! TFS I just bookmarked it :)

[H.S. Burrow]

Is there a difference between writing R&S style book reports and writing WTM logic stage style narrations for literature? If so, what do you think the purpose of each is? Which is more useful for preparing for high school writing?

 

I looked in my R&S TM for info. on book reports. The lessons give info. on how to find info. on the setting, how to describe main characters, and how to describe the theme of the story. Also how to write your own evaluation of the story. All of which I'm thinking would be included in a WTM style lit. narration, if I'm understanding the WTM lit. discussion questions correctly.

 

But R&S book report lessons also talk about including publisher and copywrite date, and to name lessons you learned from the book. Also the lessons talk about how book reports should inspire others to read the book. And they also say not to tell the outcome of the story, to leave readers in suspense. Do these points have anything to do with what kids are supposed to be learning through writing narrations? Esp. the part about leaving out the outcome? I thought narrations were partly to be able to identify the main points of a WHOLE story - wouldn't the outcome be included in that? And are the other points necessary in a WTM style narration for any reason?

 

Help me sort this out? :)

 

I would re-read the logic recommendations if WTM again - I loaned my copy out so I can't reference it.

 

I can tell you what we are doing for my 5th grader: both book reports *and* narrations and summaries. For my 8th grader we will be using the Well Educated Mind as our guide for literature and book reports.

 

I believe they (book reports and narrations/summaries) are both important. As another poster said, book reports show that you have read the entire book and that you know the elements of writing (introduction, plot, climax, conclusion, etc...).

 

IMO narrations and summaries are good for learning to pick out the key points whether it's a textbook, literature or class notes and I believe that is good training for the rhetoric stage and college.

[Colleen in NS]

I can tell you what we are doing for my 5th grader: both book reports *and* narrations and summaries.

I believe they (book reports and narrations/summaries) are both important. As another poster said, book reports show that you have read the entire book and that you know the elements of writing (introduction, plot, climax, conclusion, etc...).

 

IMO narrations and summaries are good for learning to pick out the key points whether it's a textbook, literature or class notes and I believe that is good training for the rhetoric stage and college.

 

 

For book reports, do you think that: 1. it's important prep for high school and college writing to include the date, publisher, lessons you learned, etc. that I mentioned in my OP? If so, can you explain why? Or 2. just the literary elements (characters, plots, etc.) and personal evaluation? And if option 2, do you think that those are pretty much the same thing as a WTM style narration? It seems to me they are, but I'm wondering what others think. If they are, I'm thinking I could just teach those parts of the book report lessons, and continue to use that lesson info. in logic stage Lit. narrations.

 

I guess I just see lit. narrations as training in picking out important parts of the story, and then saying your opinion of the story (in logic stage). I don't really see how writing the pub. date, publisher, and any lessons you learned from the story are important for being able to pick out literary elements, which I *thought* were more important prep for high school writing. But I am open to correction in my thinking, if I am missing something! :)

 

Thank you!

[Peela]

Hi Colleen,

I wonder if you are overthinking it, because so many people do different things, there is no objectively correct way. I haven't done more than a couple of book reports because I see them as a waste of time, but we do discuss literary elements and discuss books and sometimes write about them. My kids do not really enjoy anything artificial or contrived, but sharing how they feel about a book to a real person might come up at some stage, in a newsletter or something.

I don't really subscribe to the idea that if you need to always be something to prepare for something later- for example, I would think it is quite easy for a highschooler to learn to write the publisher's date etc- takes all of one lesson. A lot of things are easily and more quickly learned "later" and the years enforcing them earlier can just be a bit of a waste and rather tedious. Not so with other things of course- many skills need lots of repetition- but I think its important not to make things too dry for younger kids, and all that detail seems a bit over the top for me.

But every family and every child is unique, and i don't think the point is really so important- not something i would stress over or cause stress for my kids over.

[Colleen in NS]

Hi Colleen,

I wonder if you are overthinking it, because so many people do different things, there is no objectively correct way. I haven't done more than a couple of book reports because I see them as a waste of time, but we do discuss literary elements and discuss books and sometimes write about them. My kids do not really enjoy anything artificial or contrived, but sharing how they feel about a book to a real person might come up at some stage, in a newsletter or something.

I don't really subscribe to the idea that if you need to always be something to prepare for something later- for example, I would think it is quite easy for a highschooler to learn to write the publisher's date etc- takes all of one lesson. A lot of things are easily and more quickly learned "later" and the years enforcing them earlier can just be a bit of a waste and rather tedious. Not so with other things of course- many skills need lots of repetition- but I think its important not to make things too dry for younger kids, and all that detail seems a bit over the top for me.

But every family and every child is unique, and i don't think the point is really so important- not something i would stress over or cause stress for my kids over.

 

Hi again Peela,

 

We meet again over my writing questions - thank you once again, LOL!

 

I do overthink things, but it's because I like SWB's general plan for teaching writing over 12 years, and I am trying to distill all this info. down into practical steps to carry out on a weekly basis (WTM logic stage lit. narration section doesn't give me enough practical steps for how to guide the actual writing at this age). If I don't, then nothing will get done. I need to know why and how, then I write a simple plan to follow. Unfortunately, it takes me awhile to think things through.

 

However, I just spent several hours comparing R&S TM book report lessons, my WTM book, and TWEM. I finally figured out that some of the R&S book report info. is what's in the WTM logic stage lit. discussion questions.

 

So I came up with my practical plan, that our once a week lit. narrations will include a simple paragraph describing the setting, characters, and plot (with the WTM logic stage discussion questions guiding me - easy) and another short paragraph giving an opinion of the book. I might expand these over the years, as R&S gives more detail on how to describe setting, characters, and plot, but to maybe a page or two. I'll leave out the other stuff in the R&S book report lessons (dates, lessons learned from the book, etc.), since they don't seem to lead to where I want to go (TWEM). How does this sound to you?

 

Oh, by the way, your post did confirm to me what I was thinking. Thanks!

[PeterPan]

Well I'm just glad you sorted that out! You're a year ahead of me, so if you're having trouble, that's a bad sign for the rest of us, hehe! Seriously though, you asked if particular types of book reports and content mattered for college. Well I guess that depends on your major, lol, but I found in college they were SIGNIFICANTLY less interested in my opinion than they had been in high school. In fact, it wasn't until grad level classes that an instructor finally said, "Now you may have an opinion. Now you know enough to have an opinion worth having." So there you go! I think that's why SWB's persistence in the narration and summarizing is so helpful, because no matter what you're writing, the ability to get those thoughts down completely and concisely is valued. I don't see a problem with the thought process R&S is delving in, but it seems to me, without seeing the text, that it might have a moralizing goal rather than a writing one. (In reflecting on what he learned, the student extracts some moral that R&S is trying to reinforce...) So to me it's a question of whether that has value to you.

[Colleen in NS]

You're a year ahead of me, so if you're having trouble, that's a bad sign for the rest of us, hehe!

 

I don't see a problem with the thought process R&S is delving in, but it seems to me, without seeing the text, that it might have a moralizing goal rather than a writing one. (In reflecting on what he learned, the student extracts some moral that R&S is trying to reinforce...) So to me it's a question of whether that has value to you.

 

It's not a bad sign for you, it's just a fact of my life that I have to think things through veeeeeerrrrrryyyyyyyyy sllllllooooooowwwwwwllllllllyyyyyyyy in order to understand what in the world is going on! :lol: I find, here, that other people seem to know what they are talking about, and I sit and have to analyze it all before I understand! And then you all get bombarded with my questions, hee hee!

 

And yes, that what I was thinking - that the "lessons learned" part of R&S book report was more of a moralizing goal. I didn't think it had anything to do with writing skills or thinking skills. Thanks for confirming that. When I'm teaching how to write something, I want to stick to the neutral thinking skills. We will moralize later, after the lesson and writing are done. And actually, what I am finding, is that learning the thinking/writing skills is greatly helping the moralizing part of our life! :)

 

Thanks again for thinking things through with me.

[PeterPan]

You know, not to talk your leg off (or maybe so, because I'm in a talkative mood?), I think that moralizing might be something that fits some kids at some ages and others not till much later. If you think about the books R&S schools are probably using, they're probably books written with obvious, almost pushy morals. So the kid gets it or at least can regurgitate it. But I doubt every book our kids are reading is so overt. And you might have a dc who sees that, finds it interesting to discuss, and another who stays oblivious to it for a few more years. I remember being in a freshman lit class (high school) and wondering why I couldn't see the point, the theme, an underlying message to Jane Eyre. It was there, but I was too young, too inexperienced, too blind?, to see it. Of course I've always been blind to people, themes, motivations, and it continues to plague me, lol.

 

So anyways, that was all to say that it occurred to me that your approach is probably wise. At first I couldn't figure out why you wouldn't WANT to add on such a nifty requirement, then I realized that it could be very frustrating if the point of the book wasn't overt and the dc wasn't really reflective enough or mature enough to yet grasp it without discussion.

[Shukhov]

Learning narratives has multiple purposes.

 

1) To learn to identify the principle parts of a story: characters, action, time, place, causes, manners (who, what, when, etc.). Identifying these in a given story and retelling them is crucial.

 

2) Properly taught, they teach logical sequence of thought. Narratives should be written, then the same story should be condensed, expanded, written backwards, and given a slant (much like a lawyer would do).

 

3) Each of the above elements can also be expanded with description (characters, action, time, place, etc.)

 

4) The world is a narrative. This should be taught. Narratives are great for simply creating a certain outlook and framework in the child's mind.

 

5) As the child gets older he can be further challenged with narratives: write a persuasive essay proving a story false (again, like a lawyer) and then write another essay that prove the same story true. Many other things are possible.

 

I hope you find some of these thoughts stimulating.

[Shukhov]

Sorry - I just realized that I didn't answer one of your questions.

 

I can tell that your common sense is telling you "of course we should include the ending in the story". I completely agree. Suspense isn't crafted by leaving off the end. Good story writers often use a technique I suggested teaching your child in my last post: writing narratives backwards. It is suspenseful because the end of the story is told but the reader isn't told why. Or, better yet, write several sections of a story in reverse order of detail and work your way to the end.

 

Foreshadowing is another technique used to create suspense and interest. Creative description of a character's ethos is also effective.

 

I hope this helps - cheers.

[Colleen in NS]

Learning narratives has multiple purposes.

 

1) To learn to identify the principle parts of a story: characters, action, time, place, causes, manners (who, what, when, etc.). Identifying these in a given story and retelling them is crucial.

 

2) Properly taught, they teach logical sequence of thought. Narratives should be written, then the same story should be condensed, expanded, written backwards, and given a slant (much like a lawyer would do).

 

3) Each of the above elements can also be expanded with description (characters, action, time, place, etc.)

 

4) The world is a narrative. This should be taught. Narratives are great for simply creating a certain outlook and framework in the child's mind.

 

5) As the child gets older he can be further challenged with narratives: write a persuasive essay proving a story false (again, like a lawyer) and then write another essay that prove the same story true. Many other things are possible.

 

I hope you find some of these thoughts stimulating.

 

Yep, this is great!!!

 

I think we're going to save original writing for later years and spend the next few years on finding these elements in other writing. Then the kids can imitate good writing before they go off to write their own stuff (not that I hold them back from original writing, I just don't make them do it now).

 

This list is VERY helpful for figuring out what to look for in stories and how to help the kids identify important parts to narrate about. About point 3, I finally just figured that out the other day. Now I have something with which to expand their narrations over the next few years, as they are able. I noticed this is taught in R&S, too. Point 1 tells me what to look for. Point 2, I think (but not positive) is what we'll start in high school, or maybe a bit before. Isn't that part of the progymnasmata? Same with point 5. And point 4 - what a great point - I never thought about that.

 

Thank you so much for taking time to respond!

[Shukhov]

Colleen,

 

You asked if some of the points were from progymnasmata...well, they actually all are. Good for you in identifying this. What I gave you is nothing more than a summary of narrative writing (progym exercise #2 of 14). Typically the narrative exercise is begun around 4th or 5th grade and continued alongside all the other exercises. As to point #4 that I made, I came to such a realization after spending several years teaching and writing the narrative exercise. The exercises, given enough time, eventually begin to get into one's fiber and literally begin to alter the way a person sees the world. But this would not have happened without doing the exercises with other folks, both adults and my students. It's the interaction and the sharpening of minds that eventually does it.

 

I'm glad that you found some useful things in my comments. I am a progymasmata diehard, you might say, and would be willing to help you out at any time. I actively promote all 14 of the exercises. Feel free to drop me a line any time.

 

Shukhov