College visit - Univ. Minn Twin Cities & Duluth, plus a little MTU

[FaithManor]

I'm back. I took both C and P on a whirlwind college tour trip and am now ready to get back to work here.

 

It was a wonderful trip! Let me just say that this time of year in the Midwest is beautiful. The leaves are beginning to turn and against the gorgeous, sunny, blue skies we encountered most of the trip, it was a lovely drive. Coming home through Duluth, Superior WI, and into the UP of Mi, well, the color is at it's height, the water is a vibrant blue, and every where we went was breathtaking! I ended up not minding the many long hours of driving and neither did the boys.

 

U of Minnesota Twin Cities - This is the main U of Minn campus and sports nearly 70,000 students. It is a city within a city. My thoughts on the area - I love the Twin Cities. The campus is built along the river, the older campus buildings are beautiful, the flavor is very cosmopolitan and diverse, yet maintains that typical Midwestern, laid back quality. Lots of arts and culture. Obviously sports is huge, but I found that in comparison to University of Michigan and Michigan State, the opportunities for cross-cultural experiences, artistic endeavors, etc. were greater.

 

We were warmly welcomed, the admission's folk were engaging, and the campus tour was well conducted. Lots of food options and healthy fare. Dorms range from basic to a lot more palatial than anything DH and I encountered in our day.

 

Now, that said, I'm going to say this. I don't think I want my sons to go there. The class sizes for freshman coursework are staggering. Yes, there are learning centers, yes there are TA's. No, there aren't enough.  While the official student to instructor ratio is 18:1, and nearly 40% of classes have less than 25 students, the reality is that this is at the upper coursework level. We went past a biology class in a lecture hall that seated 350, and tables and chairs had been brought in to line the back, even blocking entrances and exits (wonder what the fire chief would think about that) in order to accommodate student overflow. I guess the silver lining in that is that obviously the professor had very high attendance that day. The students we talked to seemed to feel they were able to get the help they needed to succeed, however they did note that it was a real juggling act getting that help.

 

If you google a map of the campus, you will note that it is a rather huge. The bus system seems robust, and I would definitely describe it as a bike lover's campus! They have installed numerous skyways and tunnels to make walking the campus an easier proposition. They also have a fleet of vehicles that students may rent if necessary. This will come in very handy for Biology/Environmental Sci/Forestry majors who will spend a significant amount of time away from campus, oft times even at the extension campus in Duluth, doing research and field work in the junior/senior year.

 

There isn't as much of an opportunity for freshman to get involved in research/fieldwork in biology due to the sheer number of students. Competition does appear to be fairly fierce in this regard. It was a negative for certain for P, though it wasn't out of the question per se. There are some things available to enterprising new lower classmen.

 

We were unable to meet with faculty advisors or observe an entire class. That's how busy it was that day! We'd been planning this trip for months and admissions had things lined up for us, but in the end, the professors assigned to the boys just couldn't make their appointments. That was very disappointing for us.

 

Overall, if I had to rate it on a scale of 1-10, I'd give it a 7.5. Aspects that we loved, the cultural dynamic, access to the arts, the feel of the city itself, friendliness, and it has an excellent reputation with employers in the Midwest. Aspects we really did not like, freshman classroom sizes, not as many research or fieldwork opportunities in the first two years, lack of access to professors during the freshman year, and costs. Well over $31,000 tuition/room/board/books for out of state residents and not as generous with merit aid as we would have liked though it was still within reach possibly.

 

Oh, and in the area of biological sciences, one should note that admission is dicey. Students reported that they had friends with 32-34 on the ACT, huge SAT scores as well, AP's, good recommendations, and decent extra-curriculars who were rejected. They are looking for not only high GPA's, high scores, and well-rounded extra-curriculars, but community volunteer work is their biggie right now and the more of it the better. P is doing okay in that regard - he's in training as a DNR volunteer, and has already made sixteen invasive species reports. He'll have letters of recommendation from at least two DNR officers as well as the tutoring he does through 4-H with a letter of rec from our 4-H program coordinator. But, it is tough juggling all of this plus rocket team - which he would need to show participation in science on a competitive level - plus science fair projects, plus school, etc. You get the picture.

 

The school itself is more selective amongst state schools, accepting approximately 49% of applicants last year.

 

Now, onto the Duluth campus.

 

Duluth is a neat city that stretches for many miles along the southwestern corner of Lake Superior and her tributaries. The city is a bit industrial looking; the view is fantastic! It's a bit of a wild place. Winter sports, hiking, nature, nature, nature...it's definitely the area that a conservation minded biologist would love! The campus is built on the bluffs, so think HILLS! It's not quite as steep as Seattle, but every bit as steep as downtown Cincinnati. In order to accommodate the difficulty in getting around during the winter, all of the academic buildings, dorms, administrative, and sports buildings are connected by concourses so one can walk inside exclusively all winter. Here is the funny exception - Health Services. If you are sick, you'll have to brave the elements. Apparently Health Services recently moved into a different building and the concourse has not been built yet. The people in the area are extremely friendly and outgoing, the students we talked to all reported loving their college. Satisfaction appeared to be quite high. Dorm rooms were reasonably sized. That said, there aren't any closets. Each student is provided with a small, particle board armoire type thing and it's a piece of junk, truly! The dresser has eight small drawers and is a matching piece of particle board junk of the most rickety nature. The desks are better, and the bunk beds are of solid wood. Only one dorm has carpeted floors, the rest have tile/linoleum and area rugs will be needed for comfort during the winter.

 

The student to instructor ratio is 20:1, and again despite being an extension campus, the classroom sizes for freshman are pretty large. 200 for Calc 1, 350 for first semester biology. The TA to student ratio is lower than the main campus, and we ducked into a chem support/study class where the TA had been assigned only 10-12 students. She was diligently working with them at the blackboard going from student to student answering questions. Proud mommy moment here - C, who had chemistry last year with Apologia plus a college text for back up, balanced the equation on the board in his head and coughed up the correct answer to me (in a whisper) in a very reasonable amount of time. I was proud! Oh, here is an item of interest from Hellar Hall where the geology department is housed. The hallways have HUGE maps painted on the floors. They are really neat to look at as you pass. The kicker is they are 3-D maps and for several classes, students are issued 3-D glasses and spend time having lecture in the hallway. I would have LOVED to take a peek, but the student tour guides had not been issued glasses for us. On another side note, being the chemistry geek I am, I'd like to say that despite being a much smaller school than Twin Cities, the chem labs were more than satisfactory, and I could have played in them all.day.long!

 

P interviewed with Janny Walker, Associate to the Dean - responsibilities including student recruitment. She was very knowledgeable of the biology department, had some good literature for us to take home, was pro-homeschooling, engaged him well in conversation about his passions, pursuits, and education, etc. C interviewed with Dr. Tim Colburn, again very engaging, homeschool friendly, and enthusiastic. C will be eligible for the honors program due to the fact that he will have at least one level if not two of Java certification as well as the AP Comp Sci under his belt before arriving. Both boys felt that the college was a pretty good fit, though there were aspects that also did not impress them such as less research opportunities than they'd been led to expect.

 

That said, it did go off the rails a bit in terms of not impressing me very much. Though everything had been pre-arranged well in advance and we arrived on campus at the prescribed time of 9:30 a.m. there was no one to greet us. Eventually a student receptionist was tracked down and since P's faculty interview was first, we were pointed in the general direction WITHOUT A CAMPUS MAP BECAUSE NO ONE KNEW WHERE THEY WERE, and had to ask directions of loitering students more than once in order to find the office. We squeaked in with one minute to spare. After getting back to the campus center, there still wasn't anyone from admissions to be found, but the two students assigned to give us the walking tour were on hand. These girls were very helpful, and the tour was nice. 1.5 hours later we were returned to the campus center and still, the student receptionist was the only person available. We were then sent on our way to C's interview again without a map, but managed to find the office with a couple of minutes to spare. Dr. Colburn had forgotten his keys somewhere else so unfortunately, C did not get to see any of A.I. research labs, or even the main computer labs. We weren't even walked past them so he could look in the window. Upon getting back to the campus center, we found P and my mom (who decided to go with us on the trip) sitting on a couch with student packets of information (unimpressive to say the least when it comes to giving pertinent information), alone. I wandered around and never did find a representative of financial aid or admissions. Therefore, while the faculty interviewers did give us a pretty good idea of what would possibly be available by way of departmental scholarships for juniors and seniors and that merit aid would definitely help make the school affordable for the boys - out of state tuition, room and board being around $23,000.00 total for this year which is very reasonable all things considered - I am in the dark about freshman merit aid for the most part. The main campus did a much better job of wooing potential students than the extension did. Additionally, I was quite miffed because we were on campus from 9:30 - 3:00 p.m. and not offered a scrap of food nor a drink. No passes to the dining halls, no vending machine, no nothing. They had that entire time planned out and no time for food. The boys were pretty ravenous and at one point, I said..."Hey, we are taking a quick break to grab water bottles and granola bars from the van." I cannot report one single thing about food options. GRRRRRRRR.....

 

Research and field work options are available from the sophomore year forward, and I did get the impression that both boys would have no difficulty finding interesting work in which to take part though it is still noticeably less opportunity than MTU or U of Michigan. 

 

My gut instincts are that while the school would be a decent place to land and the education would be excellent, it is no where near the top by any stretch for what dh and I would like for the boys despite the fact that my cousin is a researcher and post-grad instructor there in the biology/environmental science department. Yes, it would be nice for them to be close to family who will look out for them, but, I'm not enthused.. I could take it or leave it, sad to say.

 

Now, since I reviewed Michigan Tech last year, I won't say anything in general about the school facilities, food, dorms, etc..

 

It is now the tippy top, number one choice for both boys. We stopped by for an Open House and more faculty interviews. Here is where we stand; in my desk on school letterhead is a firm offer for P to be a research assistant for one of the biology professors if he attends there. They've already exchanged multiple emails just yesterday whenever P could find a wireless network to bum off on the ride home, and he'll be collecting some samples here to send there. Dr. Thomas Werner, associate professor of biological sciences, has come on board to mentor him through a science research project that's complex enough to make me do a double take. Ds is THRILLED! I'm getting ready to shell out some bucks for supplies and due to the nature of this project will be lifting a few of my normal lab requirements for homeschool sciences this year in order to help make time for it. Believe it or not, I'm okay with that. The value of this is far greater than anything I'll ever assign him to do in chemistry...so, we'll make it work with fewer chem lab experiences, though certainly, I'm not lifting all my requirements.

 

C captivated a little audience of potential comp sci majors/software engineering, but have never really programmed before. I was so proud of how well he presented himself. Due to his advanced status, he'll be eligible for honors and skipping freshman programming coursework. This will get him the keys to the gaming/virtual lab a year early.

 

Both boys were informed that they are more qualified than many of the applicants who received half ride scholarships last year, and very much in the running for one of the 40 full rides given to Michigan students since extracurriculars, science fair awards, high school research, and essays play a bigger role in the determination than 4.0's and tons of AP's and perfect ACT scores. We talked to two students who received the Leading Scholars full ride award, and I truly believe the boys have a shot at this level of merit aid there. Comp Sci majors had a 100% placement rate of jobs in their fields within 6 months of graduation for 2012. This 2013/2014 year the school has already hosted their autumn career fair. Every single Computer Software Engineering major has a job offer pending graduation in the spring. Every.single.one. Ds, due to his JAVA background, will be eligible for a summer internship after his freshman year is completed. He's pretty thrilled. Additionally, there are some study abroad opportunities he is interested in through his minor - anthropology/archaeology.

 

In summary, P will apply to U Minn Twin Cities, and appears to have the stats and extras to be in the running for acceptance into the College of Biological Sciences. He would need a fairly generous amount of merit aid for it to be affordable. He will apply to UMD as a back-up safety though I don't think he needs to, and he definitely has the package to get accepted, no brainer. The departmental scholarships for his last two years could definitely make it affordable if he earned some of those. Since Financial Aid was M.I.A. for the afternoon, I can't say what is available for the first two years. I never had a chance to talk to admissions at U of Minn Twin Cities or Duluth in terms of finding out what specific extra documentation might be required of homeschoolers. I'll post about that as soon as someone gets back to me.

 

M.T.U. is the absolute, tippy top front runner We may still make a trip to University of Rochester for P (waving high to Creekland and son).

 

C definitely for many of the same reasons as P, has MTU as his tippy top choice with UMD maybe as a safety, but definitely not U of Minn Twin Cities because of the lack of internship opportunity before the senior year. Purdue and U of Michigan are tied for second with him, and we haven't visited Virginia Tech yet so it remains to be seen where that school will rank in his mind.

 

All in all, it was a wonderful trip. This is such an exciting time in the boys' lives. As much as I enjoyed them as babies, and little guys, I have to say that I think I'm going through the very best, most rewarding years right now!

 

Faith

[mumto2]

Thank you for the great information. I was thrilled to read the part about the Java certification being so well received. I had wondered how a University would look upon that as opposed to AP exams. Ds is definately heading more that way. I can't tell you how much better I feel after reading your post! :)

[FaithManor]

Thank you for the great information. I was thrilled to read the part about the Java certification being so well received. I had wondered how a University would look upon that as opposed to AP exams. Ds is definately heading more that way. I can't tell you how much better I feel after reading your post! :)

Let me explain a little more about the JAVA. Yes, certification is well received...from that perspective, the comp sci departments all said it demonstrated initiative and the ability to think at that adult level because certification is for professional, business oriented programming, and requires a lot of self-teaching, as well as for further levels, classwork with computer professionals. That said, they also liked to see the AP too because the AP covers the language from a more academic perspective. Certification alone would not allow a student to skip sophomore level JAVA programming, though it looks really good for competitive admissions, and departmental scholarships. They still do want to see the AP because it does test over some things that the certification exam does not, and vice versa.

 

As described to us, getting certification and taking the AP exam was the best of both worlds.

 

The interesting thing is how businesses see it. Ds may be able to work as a high school intern for the summer of 2014 where dh works due to having the professional certification. He'll only be 17, but that doesn't seem to worry the boss because they'll mostly have him assisting with some lower level programming projects, and likely, generating documentation or, as I've warned him, fetching coffee for more important people. :D But, the AP would mean absolutely NOTHING to the company. He could get a 5 on that, and they would have no clue what that means. Certification as a demonstration of ability is the professional norm. Since he'd like to have a letter of recommendation from one of dh's co-workers or a manager to give him a boost in competing for the full ride scholarship at MTU, he is right now working harder towards certification than AP. Since he'd also like the scholarship and early access to the virtual reality lab, he's going to pour on the steam after his certification exam and "study my brains out" (as he puts it) for the AP exam. We'll see if he manages to do both this year. One or the other at least needs to happen before that October 31st, 2014 deadline for the Leading Scholars program.

 

Either way, it shows initiative. What we have found is that very few potential computer software engineering majors know anything at all about programming or if they do, they've played just a little bit with python. A rare one has taken off self-teaching then writing android apps, but rare is the word. Most of them are serious computer geeks, game players, hardware gurus, who are convinced they will love programming - not so certain how that will work out for them because without exposure, I don't think it means to them what it actually means in the business world. I've met more than one that if I were a betting person, would guess they'll end up switching to electrical engineering or something similar and not end up writing code. On top of which, many are under the illusion that they are the next Halo, Half Life, World of Warcraft, Zelda, programmers and have NO idea that A. game programming is a very difficult industry to break into, B. the hours are absolutely grueling and C. there aren't that many jobs available in that industry and the competition is fierce. Most of them are going to need to be able to write for business needs. Ds was talking to a group of prospective software engineering students who were absolutely astounded when he talked about gathering requirements, pre-production testing, customer meetings, etc. all of which he would not even know about if he didn't have a dad in the field. So, I can easily imagine that this is one major that sees a lot of freshman students the first semester, and dwindles rapidly by the sophomore year, LOL!

 

If you have to make a choice between AP or certification instead of doing both, probably the AP would be for the most versatile. We are in the unusual position that ds can do both. Part of that is because of a generous offer from dh's employer regarding certification. DH has been for years a "back-end" guy...Oracle Database Architect. He's wanting to pick up some front end knowledge since he's in project management now and his company is hurting for JAVA programmer - dh still writes a lot of code, unusual for a guy his age, because he loves it and refuses to get completely out of it, plus it keeps him on his toes working with the teams he manages. His manager budgeted to pay for Dh's certification coursework and exams and as part of a small bonus to dh for going above and beyond the call of duty on some other group's project which was behind schedule, he offered to pay for ds's as well. It's fun for them because they study together and of course ds is getting the added bonus of his daddy's knowledge. They have to take their exams in Southfield or Dearborn (can't remember which one), and it will be interesting to see how ds does surrounded by much older individuals/computer professionals, and conversely, how they react to having a 16 year old taking the exam with them. I would imagine that this is not a common occurrence.

 

That said, if your son does not mind taking JAVA again in his sophomore year, going the certification route is great! The good software engineering departments see so few students with the AP, that they really do not discriminate against the kids that didn't take it, and do admire the initiative of the students who pursue certification.

 

Faith

[mumto2]

Thank you so much for all the wonderful information! Ds13 is fascinated by code and seems to have done a pretty good job self educating at this point. Which is at the very start and he knows it. Dh works with a programming firm in finance so ds has some exposure to professionals (not as much as your ds by any means) and we frequently hear really serious compliments about his knowledge. He has talked about working on a certificate and dh is enthused about him doing it. One of those things that will be easy for me because I know dh will want to lead the way. ;)

 

I am happy to hear that it was a productive activity for someone who is University bound. I will do my best to arrange for the AP too. Slightly more difficult living in the UK. I haven't looked for that one yet since not ready at all. Arranging for dd to take the calculus one next spring is my first attempt to line up AP exams.

 

Thank you so much for all the advice! I love reading about the college visits.

[Kareni]

Thanks for the very comprehensive visit reports, Faith!

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Mergath]

I attended UMD for five years (until 2008) so feel free to pm me if you guys have any questions about it. :)

[FaithManor]

I attended UMD for five years (until 2008) so feel free to pm me if you guys have any questions about it. :)

Thanks Mergath! I have to tell you that I sure was a fan of the scenery and location. Minnesota is one gorgeous state, and I'm convinced that you all are the friendliest bunch in the Midwest.

 

Faith