WWYD - Defiant boy

[Uggyface]

I have no idea what to do. I have 2 boys 9 1/2 and 7.  My older DS is a great student, very independent and cooperative. My younger DS, as a student, is controlling, defiant and rude (sweet kid when he isn't in school). He does not want to be in school so he will not do it, nothing, he lays on the floor and acts like a 3 year old. He thinks he's hilarious! Heeventually does get all the work done that I ask but it is entirely on his schedule. I feel it is hurting my oldest because he spends half the day fending him off or trying to ignore his outbursts. He doesn't have ADHD, he does suffer from PTSD,  but thats a separation thing from his dad being deployed. He is just being so defiant. He doesn't respect me at all as a teacher.

I don't know what to do, I have tried various rewards and "punishments" if you will. I will take things away that he loves, but that only makes his behaviour worse! He hates that his brother sits and does all his work without complaining.

The only thing I can think to do is seperate their schooling. Teach the oldest in the morning and DS 7 in the afternoon. I don't want to put him in a public or private school, but is that the only way to get through to him? He did a year of public but that was kinder, not really a great guage on what school is like.

Any input would be greatly appreciated, I am exhasperated and its only day 4!

[Mandy in TN]

What exactly are you wanting the 7yo to do? An answer would depend on what you are expecting.

 

Although i can discuss boys, length of school days, and work expectatipns, I know next to nothing about PTSD in children, so this may actually be a question for a therapist.

 

Having said that, if I were you and felt I could handle the additional school hours, then I, yes, I would do their school separately as much as possible or at least try to put them in separate rooms in an attempt to allow the older son to be as productive as possible.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Uggyface]

Well, what we have done this week has been pretty light. Math, grammar, light reading, the first chapter of SOTW and spelling. They have done small portions of each topic. We start at 9:30 have 1 1/2 hours for lunch then we really should be done by 1:30-2:00.  I have let them chose what they want to do and when. I remind them that it doesn't have to take all day, as soon as we're done they can go play. DS 7 gets frustrated if its too hard, yet gets frustrated if its too easy. I don't restrict him to sitting in a desk, he has freedom to move and wiggle. But he just sits there and makes funny faces, makes crude noises, sings songs he's made up and does everything he can to distract his brother. It isn't until his brother is done, that he decides he better do some work or he will be in the classroom all night! The classroom was his idea, so he could focus better at school. He is in 2nd grade, he is a smart kid but strong willed.

Really, I expect him to try. He doesn't even try, I will show him his work he will look at me and tell me he's not going to do it and proceed to put on his show. This is how the entire morning goes. It's only until my oldest leaves the room that he will pull himself together. We struggled a bit last year, but this year is over the top.

[KathyJo]

I'll preface this by acknowledging that maybe I'm a mean mom, but I really think defiance and disrespect are issues that cannot be allowed to continued.

 

I used to have a child who dawdled. Briefly. He was about 7. I made it clear that he would sit at the kitchen table, alone, until his work was done. I can't remember how long it took, but I don't think it was more than a week or two before he got tired of having an eight-hour school day, and he started completing his work in a more timely fashion.

 

Frankly, I'd separate them. I'd choose a different room for the child causing havoc, and make it clear that he would stay in that spot until the work was done. Then, I'd leave the room. If he continued with his antics, I'd start making sure that I had something super fun to do with the older child, and make it clear that younger was missing out because of his poor behavior.

[Uggyface]

KathyJo I agree with you about not letting it go on. I didn't think I was easy on him, I always thought of myself as strict, but maybe I haven't been. My DH is in the Marine Corp and also in Law Enforcement, so he expects the kids to be perfect. I always have to remind him that they are not Marines! So maybe in some way I am letting him get away with things that he shouldn't. I will try to be more aware of that. I have tried hard to make our school a positive experience, firm but fun. Its been perfect for my oldest, he is thriving.

He does have seperation issues, my husband has been deployed for a good chunk of DS's life and for the longest time he would break down everytime my DH left for work. My husband still travels a lot. I guess that could have something to do with it.

Tomorrow I am going to try the seperate schedule and see how it works. These behaviors are only present during school, the rest of the time he is a kind, loving, silly, helpful little boy.  He isn't disrespectful outside of school either.

[Mandy in TN]

These behaviors are only present during school, the rest of the time he is a kind, loving, silly, helpful little boy. He isn't disrespectful outside of school either.

Is it possible that he doesn't see his behavior as disrespectful? Is there any way you can show him that his behavior is disrespectful not just to you but also to his brother?

 

I am not one to talk to or reason with out of control children. During the school day, I give only enough attention to inappropriate behavior as needed to keep moving forward. However, when he is being sweet and it is outside of school time, ask what would happen if you behaved the way he did about preparing his dinner or if his brother treated him that way while he was trying to do something. I am unsure of what explanation will flip the table for your son, but try to find the scenario that will put him on the receiving end of that sort of behavior.

 

Oh, and for another option- rather than sending him away, have you considered going in the other direction? Whenever I see posts asking what to with disrespectful boys, I am reminded of an old post by Jean in Wisc.

http://shadesofwhite.typepad.com/shades_of_white/2008/03/tomato-staking.html#comments

 

HTH-

Mandy

[KathyJo]

((Hugs)) Been there, done that, with having a husband who travels. I know it's hard.

 

We tend to treat issues separately around here. For instance, we have serious food allergies which cause extreme behavioral problems, especially with my 9yos. If he inadvertently has food he shouldn't have, I cut him some slack; he's not going to get punished for behaving badly. He IS going to be reminded that no matter what's going on, even when we feel poorly, we don't treat other people like that. 

 

If one of my boys acted disrespectfully only during school hours, my concern would be that he simply didn't mind what I was asking him to do the rest of the time.

 

Good luck with separate schedules!

[AK_Mom4]

What are your options here? Can you safely send the 7yo away to play in another room while you work with the older one? Will the younger happily watch a video or play on a computer with headphones for a while to give you some time to work with the older?

 

As far as splitting up the school time - absolutely! It sounds like the younger has no interest in sharing his school time with his brother and no interest in sharing YOU during school time. No unreasonable necessarily when you look at it that way. Maybe it's some sort of competition thing or just a bit of 7yo neediness (it happens!). Split them up and maybe try doing the younger one first (sort of the Fill His Tank philosophy) while big brother has to go away to another room. He might be willing to do more that way.

 

Good Luck!

[Uggyface]

Mandy, This was a great article and really hit home. Our life in the last few months has gotten full and we don't spend that close time as often. That is what he is missing, I just know it. I am going to try this and get back to how we used to be.

I did talk to him about being disrespectful and how he would feel if it was his brother acting like that, he agreed it wouldn't be very nice.

 

His dad used to tell him every morning to be good to his teacher, but now my DS is sleeping when my DH leaves for work. That might even be part of the issue but it would be like waking a bear!

 

When we aren't in school, he even does things he doesn't want to do without complaining! He likes to be helpful and needed.

 

AK- I think you're right, he doesn't want me to give attention to the older DS. My older DS is more focused and independent, I know that bothers my younger ds.

 

Tomorrow is a new day, we are going to try to seperate them, older ds in the morning and younger ds after lunch. Thank you for the advice and for letting me vent. I was so frustrated today, but I am feeling better about tomorrow!

[happypamama]

Excessive silliness, dawdling, or bugging siblings gets you sent out of the schoolroom here.  Getting sent out means you don't get your work done, and not getting your work done means no screen time (and you may end up doing your work on the weekend or missing some fun activity).  

 

Can you send your younger one out to run a few laps around the house or something, before sitting him down to work?  This is very effective with my 8yo if he's being silly or unfocused, and it's not punitive like being sent out of the schoolroom is.

 

I also give my kids the speech about school being their job.  What happens if Daddy doesn't complete his work at the office?  What happens if I don't complete my job of feeding babies/doing laundry/grocery shopping?  This is their job.  And I have no problem reminding them that the law says they have to do some work, and if they flat out won't do it for me, they'll have to do it at a school building all day long.  They've never been to school, but the idea of it taking up their whole day doesn't thrill them; sometimes they just need to be reminded that being homeschooled IS a privilege.  Also, I remind them that if they don't do it for me, I will report to Daddy, and they generally don't want that.  (We have so many littles that typically, Daddy is the one who does the bulk of the fun adventures for the big kids.  Nobody wants to disappoint Daddy enough that they lose a chance at one of his outings.)  I also will have DH sit down and have talks with the kids about their attitudes; this is particularly useful for boys, I think.  It's not that they don't respect me, exactly, just that if something is a big enough deal that I'll take up Daddy's limited time at home to discuss it with him, it's a big deal indeed.

[Mandy in TN]

Normally, I would agree about sending a child out, but the sort of punishment you describe doesn't seem like a wise thing to do to a child with PTSD and separation issues. ;)

Mandy

[happypamama]

Normally, I would agree about sending a child out, but the sort of punishment you describe doesn't seem like a wise thing to do to a child with PTSD and separation issues. ;)

Mandy

Oh, yes, that is true; I saw that and then forgot it when I actually responded. Very good point. I agree that a therapist might be helpful, as well as trying to find positive ways to connect with him.

[freesia]

I have an idea that I read online a long time ago. It worked wonders with my older ds's attitude during school time and is presently in use for my younger ds.

 

Buy a tea light that has a burn time of 7-15 hours. Discuss what behavior is expected during seat work.

Light it when seat work starts.

Blow it out if YOU decide he is being disrespectful (no negotiations).

It doesn't get lit again until the next day. (You may have to send him out of the room to do his work bc he will blow up at this. )

At the end of seat work (or for us instruction with Mom) you blow it out.

When it burns down he gets a reward. For the first candle I buy something. If I think we need more candle time, I reward with extra screen time or a date with me.

 

Also, you aren't expecting a 7 year old to sit for 2 1/2 hours of school with no breaks, right? You are sure his fine motor skills are up to what you are asking? That the work isn't too hard?

 

I did have my 7 yo tested for lds bc of his behavior during seat work (dyslexia/dysgraphia run rampant in my family). Lo and behold, while he does have fine motor delays, he is capable of doing the work I was expecting. For him, it was character and behavior mod had worked wonders.