Perplexing Math Student

[SA Homeschooler]

This was our first year homeschooling. I have a 13 yo son who was in pre-AP math classes in our local public school; however I had a sneaking suspicion that despite his A's he didn't really "get it." Much to my dismay, when I tested him with a placement test for Singapore Math Primary Mathematics he tested at the 5A level. I had no problem starting there because I really want him to have a good math background as he would like to be an engineer of some sort. So we plodded through 5A and 5B and he seemed to do very well. We skipped 6A and 6B per the Singapore math consultant who said that there was much overlap between those and 7A [Discovering Mathematics]. We got 2 chapters into the book and when he was to do the chapter on Integers suddenly he could not remember how to multiply 4 digits by 3 digits. I tried to have him slow down and "logic" his way through but to no avail. Needless to say that I am exasperated since I thought we had gotten through that.

 

It is the strangest phenomenon, it is almost like he is very good at memorizing a "process" and aces the exercises and tests but then just chunks the information when we move to another chapter. I don't understand...has anyone else had a similar experience???

 

I don't know what else to do; I can only assume that we have not done a good job of explaining the mathematical thinking to him. I am shifting gears and moving on to Math-U-See to see if I can get him a better explanation of the underlying concepts rather than just the algorithm.

 

The funny thing is that he is very good at mental math and easily solves word problems without writing out all of the steps. So he does have a math mind...I just can't figure out what we are missing. Please help.

[nmoira]

Before you panic and switch horses, let him go back and review algorithms with Khan Academy, ALEKS, or similar program. He's 13, not an uncommon age to have, for lack of a better term, brain farts, especially if he hasn't used the algorithm in awhile. You could even set him up for occasional drill in one or the other while you continue on with DM.

[Arcadia]

This was our first year homeschooling. I have a 13 yo son who was in pre-AP math classes in our local public school......... We got 2 chapters into the book and when he was to do the chapter on Integers suddenly he could not remember how to multiply 4 digits by 3 digits.

.....,

It is the strangest phenomenon, it is almost like he is very good at memorizing a "process" and aces the exercises and tests but then just chunks the information when we move to another chapter. I don't understand...has anyone else had a similar experience???

 

I don't know how math was taught in your son's public school class since each teacher have their own style. However learning for a test and forgetting it once test is over is quite common. It is quite habit forming to do that actually and can apply to science as well.

Even some of us using mastery programs are doing review now and than for our kids. The good thing is that sometimes a quick review is all that is needed or sometimes just sleeping on the problem works.

 

For multiplication and division, it is easier to write the working on graph paper or turn the college ruled paper sideways. That helps align the columns (place value) and minimise careless mistakes.

[kiana]

I would review the algorithms before I panicked and switched curriculum. If he learned it and could do it before he shouldn't need more than a quick review.

 

If he "chunks" then forgets MUS is probably not going to be a good fit anyway with the extensive mastery approach. As Arcadia says learning for a test and then forgetting is very habit-forming and it takes a while to break.

[dereksurfs]

I think this is a common problem with most mastery based programs. ds11 used MUS and I noticed this at times. So as others have said 'review' becomes more important. That is why much of Pre-A is review of primary math before moving on into secondary abstract algebraic concepts. I would consider working at reviewing these fundamentals. You don't need a conceptual program like MUS or SM to do this review IMO, though they could be used as well. You simply need to review how things work again which he obviously has forgotten somewhat. Math Mammoth has target books (Decimals, Percents, etc...) which may be good for this. Keys to series is another option. Or consider Lial's Basic College Math which many use to review the fundamentals and prepare for Algebra.

 

You didn't really tell us how far he got prior to SM in public schools. Had he covered the basics (decmials, percents, fractions, etc...)? Maybe SM is just not the best fit for him and his learning style. Have you considered other good options for Pre-A and beyond? BTW, for STEM inclinded student I wouldn't necessarily recommend MUS. We used it from Primer all the way through Pre-A. But once at the pre-A stage its a bit too light/easy with very limited scope compared with other programs. Though it can be good to use for a 'season' to help understand a new concept or look at things from another perspective.

[SA Homeschooler]

Thank you all so much!! Perhaps I am hitting the panic button too soon. My son had gotten through decimals, percents, ratios and rates as well as fractions. So when he and I went through it AGAIN this school year it was already review...and now he needs more review....I am shocked. Oh well I suppose we will review again and hope that it sticks. Thank you for your replies.

 

I suppose we will do another round of Pre-Algebra review now and through the summer.

 

I was planning on using Foerster's Algebra with the HomeStudy Companion videos. I have taken a part-time job and need something thorough enough for a STEM student but that does not have a ton of parent involvement. I also considered ChalkDust Math but have read that the video lessons are quite long and drawn out...I don't think my ds would do well trying to watch long lectures on his own.

 

Any opinions are welcome.

[kiana]

Foerster is a good and solid program but you'll still have to grade his work and make sure problems aren't being glossed over.

 

There is nothing wrong with continuing pre-algebra review while you do algebra problems. Heck, it could be one problem per day with a repeating weekly cycle -- e.g. monday, do a multiplication, tuesday, do a long division, etc. where as long as the one problem is perfect there are no extras.

[dereksurfs]

Foerster is a good and solid program but you'll still have to grade his work and make sure problems aren't being glossed over.

 

There is nothing wrong with continuing pre-algebra review while you do algebra problems. Heck, it could be one problem per day with a repeating weekly cycle -- e.g. monday, do a multiplication, tuesday, do a long division, etc. where as long as the one problem is perfect there are no extras.

 

In fact I really like this idea quite a bit! This serves several purposes. #1 it makes him feel less of a flop and allows him to experience math at the next level, gradually. This helps build his confidence and self-esteem back up again. That's important for a young man or woman, especially if looking toward STEM careers. We actually allowed our son to work ahead once a week in Pre-A while still finishing up decimals and percents. Then once in Pre-A I selected a program which had a lot of Algebraic content in it. Now that he is in Algebra much has been review. I've always been in favor of the 'three strands' approach which is comprised of review, current material and exploring future topics earlier on. This tends to break up the monotony and provides mental stimulation rather than drudgery or plug and chug boredom which can occur doing the same thing every day. You could just start him once a week in Foerster and see how it goes. He might even surprise you and himself as the lights start to turn on. :)

[Tiramisu]

Your ds sounds a lot like my dd. It's kind of freaky. She was an impressive math student early on. Amazing scores on standardized tests and the math cognitive abilities test. She had unbelievable abilities to conceptualize and do mental math. Doing SAT math review with her was an experience. She could seemingly grab answers out of the air. Despite all this, she was always rather slow in working out problems, especially if it was something that required writing of multiple steps.

 

When we started hsing 7th, like your ds, we did Saxon, but she was so slow in doing Saxon. She could not switch gears well from one type of problem to the next, and had problems with cluttered pages. She then did MUS pre-algebra and flew through it in a few months. After that, we did Foerster's algebra 1 (clean, well formatted pages) and she did well, too. Sometimes, though, we'd get to a concept that she'd done before and would have absolutely no memory of seeing that type of problem before. I'd have to take out an old notebook and show her.

 

She seemed to need review but since she couldn't switch gears quickly, something like Saxon was not a good fit.

 

For geometry and algebra 2, she did TT. When we got to algebra 2, despite doing well with Foerster's, she had very little retention from algebra 1. That made me very nervous, but in the end, she did well with TT, too, until Pre-Calc. Now she's doing MUS pre-calc and is doing really well with it.

 

SAT's were only good, in part because of the spotty memory.

 

I have had her tested and she does have processing issues. That doesn't mean your ds has them but it could be something to keep an eye out for.

 

The best programs for dd were MUS and TT. Even though she could do the tougher programs, these we the ones that went most smoothly. I saw that the tougher programs did not result in greater retention at all. And this is a kid that had no problems with Foerster's word problems.

 

If I had to do it all again with this type of kid, I'd do algebra one twice, because algebra is the foundation of all higher math. Even if they have no interest in a math or science, it will help for SAT's to have algebra skills down well. I might follow the path of 8FilltheHeart and do MUS algebra followed by Foerster's algebra 1.

 

Regarding this that you said:

 

We got 2 chapters into the book and when he was to do the chapter on Integers suddenly he could not remember how to multiply 4 digits by 3 digits. I tried to have him slow down and "logic" his way through but to no avail. Needless to say that I am exasperated since I thought we had gotten through that.

 

It is the strangest phenomenon, it is almost like he is very good at memorizing a "process" and aces the exercises and tests but then just chunks the information when we move to another chapter. I don't understand...has anyone else had a similar experience???

 

I don't know what else to do; I can only assume that we have not done a good job of explaining the mathematical thinking to him. I am shifting gears and moving on to Math-U-See to see if I can get him a better explanation of the underlying concepts rather than just the algorithm.

 

The funny thing is that he is very good at mental math and easily solves word problems without writing out all of the steps. So he does have a math mind...I just can't figure out what we are missing. Please help.

 

 

I'll risk saying this and getting some tomatoes thrown at me. There's an idea that comes up on the boards frequently that if you do conceptual math, your dc will understand the workings of math and simply do math better. They will be able to figure out any tough problems even if they forget something about the process. I have found the opposite to be true. My dc have a natural tendency to understand the conceptual. Sometimes, I could not keep up with their leaps of understanding. However, they had difficulty with memorizing facts and/or algorithms. This would bog them down and get them frustrated. I suppose I should be glad they have a certain gift with concepts, but for them it had to be balanced with a traditional approach of memorization and reinforcement, or things did not become automatic for them and it caused problems in the long run.

 

Balance, of course, is best, with each approach complimenting the other.

[SA Homeschooler]

Tiramisu,

 

Thank you so much for your input. It is comforting to know that my child and I are not alone in our predicament. What did mean when you mentioned that your dd has processing issues? How can I get my child tested? Is there a protocol to address these issues?

 

And yes, I agree...my son sometimes understands the concepts and makes huge leaps but cannot "articulate" the solution on paper. He seems to get really overwhelmed with multi-step problems when he has to write them out. He too has messy cluttered papers. We use graph paper to help with organization but it doesn't really help.

 

Today I had him take a placement test for TT and he missed only 2 of 30 on the 7th grade test. I'll have him take the TT Pre-Algebra test tomorrow. Still not sure which rout to take with him.

 

Saxon will not work well for him either; in fact I contend that a "Saxon-type" curriculum used in the ps is what got him so confused and never gave him the foundation that he needed. He does not shift gears well either....and yet he aced the test today...this boy baffles me.

[Tiramisu]

If you visit the learning challenges board, you will find people who may be better able to help.

 

Generally, an evaluation by a neuropsychologist is what's recommended. The testing covers broad areas and will pick up not only weaknesses but strengths, so you know how to best help him learn. Sometimes insurance covers it, or part of it, but often you have to pay yourself and it's pricey. There's also the option of using your school district but the testing may not be as extensive. The information you gain can be priceless, especially as you can determine if there's something going on that would entitle him to accommodations of tests like the SAT or ACT and later in college. Remember if you get accommodations they are kept private, so only the people you decide to share that information with will know.

 

It is better to start the process earlier rather than later. I was tough on my oldest and overwhelmed her academically going into the high school years because I had no idea about her challenges. She was so bright, but I knew something wasn't quite right. That's why I like to encourage moms not to ignore that feeling in their gut. Besides the academics, getting the testing done can do a lot for him and for your relationship.

 

:grouphug: