Advanced Chemistry or Physics for 11th?

[profmom]

I mention this in the AP thread I just started, but maybe this is a separate question. We're trying to decide whether to have dd take Advanced Chemistry in 11th or go ahead to Physics. These would be at TPS.

 

She's currently taking Chemistry and enjoys it. She is unlikely to major in science in college -- probably humanities. If she were to take Advanced Chemistry this year, she would be prepared to take the AP Chemistry exam. (The teacher/professor also provides 6 extra sessions to further prepare them for the AP exam.)

 

Do you think it would be better to go ahead and do this, and save Physics for 12th? It was her idea to take Advanced Chemistry, but then she started getting intimidated by the 15 formal lab reports, etc. Part of my thinking is that this would be a 4th AP exam for her -- and it looks like 4 APs are seen as much better than only 3?? Still learning!

 

(She's finishing Chemistry & Algebra II now with A's and enjoys Chemistry more than Biology. We have AP World History planned for 11th, and AP English & Psychology planned for 12th, if Psych fits in her schedule -- it doesn't for 11th.)

[Musicmom]

I would have her go ahead and do the advanced chemistry for 11th and save physics for 12th. Having had chemistry this year, she's in a great position to do well in advanced chem, and having it on her transcript will be great for college admissions, no matter what her planned major is. Also, a good score on the AP test could get her out of some basic science requirements in college if she ends up headed for the humanities. Or, if she ends up heading for the sciences instead, having had the advanced chem course will set her up for success in college science. Add to that the fact that she enjoys chemistry... I really don't see any downside at all to going ahead with it. (No need to be intimidated by the formal lab reports--it's just a matter of learning the format, and getting experience with doing it, and then you get the hang of it.)

 

I can't see any downside to doing physics senior year either.

 

Finally, it would appear that doing the advanced chem in 11th would even out her AP test load--2 AP's junior year and 2 senior year, which might be a good thing.

 

 

[Dicentra]

By this year, do you mean that she would write AP Chem this May? As in May 2013? And AP Physics in May 2014? Or Chem in May 2014 and Physics in 2015? The reason I'm asking is because AP Chem will change for the 2013/2014 year and Physics (I believe) will change in the 2014/2015 year although I'm not sure if they plan on changing all the Physics at once (there are 3 AP Physics courses currently - Physics B and two Physics Cs) or even what they'll be changing to. It's always more difficult to write an AP exam in the year that the course has changed (difficult to find practice exams and to know what the new exams will be like) so you may want to take that into consideration when you're planning as well. :)

[Luckymama]

Physics B (algebra-based) is changing in 2014-15 into two one-year courses, Physics 1 and Physics 2. I think they'll be analogous to the current calculus-based Physics C:Mechanics and Physics C:Electricity and Magnetism.

[profmom]

By this year, do you mean that she would write AP Chem this May? As in May 2013? And AP Physics in May 2014? Or Chem in May 2014 and Physics in 2015? The reason I'm asking is because AP Chem will change for the 2013/2014 year and Physics (I believe) will change in the 2014/2015 year although I'm not sure if they plan on changing all the Physics at once (there are 3 AP Physics courses currently - Physics B and two Physics Cs) or even what they'll be changing to. It's always more difficult to write an AP exam in the year that the course has changed (difficult to find practice exams and to know what the new exams will be like) so you may want to take that into consideration when you're planning as well. :)

 

 

 

I mean that she is finishing Chemistry this year and is considering Advanced Chem next year. If so, she'd take the AP Chem exam in May 2014. I had heard that the exam is changing, but the teacher said he would make course adjustments to compensate.

 

She won't be taking AP Physics. =D She'd rather not take any Physics at all, but we can't really get away with that -- or could we??

[profmom]

I would have her go ahead and do the advanced chemistry for 11th and save physics for 12th. Having had chemistry this year, she's in a great position to do well in advanced chem, and having it on her transcript will be great for college admissions, no matter what her planned major is. Also, a good score on the AP test could get her out of some basic science requirements in college if she ends up headed for the humanities. Or, if she ends up heading for the sciences instead, having had the advanced chem course will set her up for success in college science. Add to that the fact that she enjoys chemistry... I really don't see any downside at all to going ahead with it. (No need to be intimidated by the formal lab reports--it's just a matter of learning the format, and getting experience with doing it, and then you get the hang of it.)

 

I can't see any downside to doing physics senior year either.

 

Finally, it would appear that doing the advanced chem in 11th would even out her AP test load--2 AP's junior year and 2 senior year, which might be a good thing.

 

 

All great points! Thanks! She's been doing formal lab reports for a few years now, but usually only about 5 a years, not 15! I'd like for her to go ahead with Advanced Chem, and I plan to use your arguments. :)

[profmom]

Which do you guys think would be more difficult? Below are the class descriptions (from The Potter's School):

 

 

Advanced Chemistry (Apologia text)

 

This second-year chemistry course, when combined with Apologia's Exploring Creation With Chemistry or its equivalent, covers the advanced placement (AP) chemistry syllabus or the equivalent of one year of college chemistry. Following the completion of both courses, a student is prepared to take either the AP or CLEP (College Level Examination Program) chemistry exam. The course includes discussion of limiting-reagent stoichiometry, atomic and molecular orbitals, intermolecular forces, solutions, chemical equilibrium, acid/base equilibria, redox reactions, nuclear chemistry, and an introduction to organic chemistry. The course also includes approximately 28 hours of laboratory experiments investigating the Kinetic Theory of Matter, crystallization, solubility curves, distillation, paper chromatography, the common ion effect, calculation of concentration from pH, redox reactions, making polymers, and the Iodine Clock Reaction and others. The text for this course is Apologia's Advanced Chemistry in Creation, 2nd Edition. A chemistry lab set is also required.

Prerequisites: Successful completion (B or higher) of TPS Chemistry and TPS Advanced Algebra, or their equivalents with approval from the instructor. Students may also be concurrently enrolled in TPS Advanced Algebra.

 

[This class is required to complete every lab, question, and problem in the book. Fifteen labs require formal reports and the rest informal. The professor also includes 6 extra sessions to help prepare for the AP exam. Hmmm...the class times aren't great for us -- 7:00 a.m. on Wed. or 3:45 p.m. on Tuesday.]

 

 

Physics (doesn't use Apologia)

 

This course gives students a rigorous foundation in physics, preparing them for college-level work and helping them understand how things work in God’s magnificent universe. It is highly recommended for students considering STEM majors and careers. The curriculum covers classical physics topics, including: motion, forces, energy, work, momentum, heat, thermodynamics, waves, vibrations, sound, light, optics, electricity, and magnetism. Topics will be introduced using an inquiry-based approach and deeper understanding will be developed by considering real-world engineering and science applications of the material. A variety of instructional strategies will be used to ensure that different learning styles are addressed. Laboratory work, which can be challenging in the homeschool environment, is critical to the learning of physics. The laboratory content for this course will include narrated videos of experiments conducted by the instructor using quality laboratory apparatus and Vernier data collection equipment, online computer simulations of experiments, and at-home experiments conducted by the students using common objects and materials. Formal lab reports will be required. The textbook for this course is Physics: Principles and Problems, by Paul W. Zitzewitz and others (2013 edition). This is the latest version of a classic high-school physics text that includes access to a variety of online resources that will support and enhance the learning of physics in the homeschool environment.

Prerequisites: Successful completion (B or higher) of TPS Advanced Algebra or equivalent, or concurrent enrollment in TPS Advanced Algebra or equivalent. TPS Summer Advanced Algebra Review is encouraged for those who need to strengthen their Advanced Algebra skills (or TPS Summer Algebra Review, for those who need to strengthen basic algebra skills).

[Dicentra]

I mean that she is finishing Chemistry this year and is considering Advanced Chem next year. If so, she'd take the AP Chem exam in May 2014. I had heard that the exam is changing, but the teacher said he would make course adjustments to compensate.

 

She won't be taking AP Physics. =D She'd rather not take any Physics at all, but we can't really get away with that -- or could we??

 

 

My bad. :) I misread Advanced Physics to be AP Physics - sorry!

 

Which do you guys think would be more difficult? Below are the class descriptions (from The Potter's School):

 

 

Advanced Chemistry (Apologia text)

 

This second-year chemistry course, when combined with Apologia's Exploring Creation With Chemistry or its equivalent, covers the advanced placement (AP) chemistry syllabus or the equivalent of one year of college chemistry. Following the completion of both courses, a student is prepared to take either the AP or CLEP (College Level Examination Program) chemistry exam. The course includes discussion of limiting-reagent stoichiometry, atomic and molecular orbitals, intermolecular forces, solutions, chemical equilibrium, acid/base equilibria, redox reactions, nuclear chemistry, and an introduction to organic chemistry. The course also includes approximately 28 hours of laboratory experiments investigating the Kinetic Theory of Matter, crystallization, solubility curves, distillation, paper chromatography, the common ion effect, calculation of concentration from pH, redox reactions, making polymers, and the Iodine Clock Reaction and others. The text for this course is Apologia's Advanced Chemistry in Creation, 2nd Edition. A chemistry lab set is also required.

Prerequisites: Successful completion (B or higher) of TPS Chemistry and TPS Advanced Algebra, or their equivalents with approval from the instructor. Students may also be concurrently enrolled in TPS Advanced Algebra.

 

[This class is required to complete every lab, question, and problem in the book. Fifteen labs require formal reports and the rest informal. The professor also includes 6 extra sessions to help prepare for the AP exam. Hmmm...the class times aren't great for us -- 7:00 a.m. on Wed. or 3:45 p.m. on Tuesday.]

 

 

Physics (doesn't use Apologia)

 

This course gives students a rigorous foundation in physics, preparing them for college-level work and helping them understand how things work in God’s magnificent universe. It is highly recommended for students considering STEM majors and careers. The curriculum covers classical physics topics, including: motion, forces, energy, work, momentum, heat, thermodynamics, waves, vibrations, sound, light, optics, electricity, and magnetism. Topics will be introduced using an inquiry-based approach and deeper understanding will be developed by considering real-world engineering and science applications of the material. A variety of instructional strategies will be used to ensure that different learning styles are addressed. Laboratory work, which can be challenging in the homeschool environment, is critical to the learning of physics. The laboratory content for this course will include narrated videos of experiments conducted by the instructor using quality laboratory apparatus and Vernier data collection equipment, online computer simulations of experiments, and at-home experiments conducted by the students using common objects and materials. Formal lab reports will be required. The textbook for this course is Physics: Principles and Problems, by Paul W. Zitzewitz and others (2013 edition). This is the latest version of a classic high-school physics text that includes access to a variety of online resources that will support and enhance the learning of physics in the homeschool environment.

Prerequisites: Successful completion (B or higher) of TPS Advanced Algebra or equivalent, or concurrent enrollment in TPS Advanced Algebra or equivalent. TPS Summer Advanced Algebra Review is encouraged for those who need to strengthen their Advanced Algebra skills (or TPS Summer Algebra Review, for those who need to strengthen basic algebra skills).

 

 

So it sounds like the Advanced Physics is Honours Physics. I would think AP Chem would be more difficult than Honours Physics but others may not agree. :D

 

Even though the AP Chem teacher will make course adjustments, it'll still be more difficult to write the exam in the first year of a change. I think there are two facets to writing most standardized tests - knowing the content and knowing how to write that particular test. In the first year of a change to any test, there won't be any old tests to look at to figure out "how" to write that particular exam. There also won't be any study guides out that are based on years of statistical analysis of past tests so that the guide preps the student in the best way possible. The study guide publishers will simply be giving it their "best guess" until they have a few years of the new test to analyze.

 

So... You could save AP Chem until Grade 12 and do Honours Physics in Grade 11. That way, she won't be writing AP Chem in the change year plus I think it's more difficult than Honours Physics. On the down side, she'd have 3 APs in her senior year. I don't know how much difference having a year gap between Intro Chem and AP Chem would make. If she's truly understanding the Chem and not just memorizing algorithms to get through, I don't think it will make much difference. If you feel like she would "forget" Intro Chem with a year's gap, then that might be something else to consider.

 

Sorry - not much help, am I? :001_rolleyes: :)

[profmom]

Thanks, Connie, for trying to decide which is more difficult! :) Does it make any difference to say that it's just a regular Physics course and that the Chemistry isn't AP. The description says that it takes both Chemistry + Advanced Chemistry (+ 6 extra sessions with the professor) to prepare for the AP Chem exam, but the Chemistry isn't actually an AP class. Does that make sense? I'm new to all the AP stuff, so I don't know how unusual that is. She's taking regular Chemistry this year, and we're trying to decide between Advanced Chemistry (in hopes of taking the AP Chem exam afterwards) or Physics for 11th grade.

 

I like the idea of having 2 AP exams each year. Do you really think it's an issue that the Chemistry exam will be new? Is it worth waiting just for that?

 

Anyone else want to weigh in on comparing the difficulty level of the two classes? :)

[Musicmom]

I forgot the AP Chemistry exam will be new next year. That will definitely make it harder to prepare for. But I'm not sure if waiting a year will help all that much. At that point, the prep book authors will only have 1 example to go on, and the College Board may or may not release that first test. My dd did AP Chem last year through PA Homeschoolers and the most recent released test available for them to practice with was I believe from 2007, and the next most recent was from 2002. I think CB only releases an exam every 5 years. So, it could be that prepping for the exam will be a little difficult for the next few years. If doing well on the AP test is a major factor in your decision, you might want to research this further--definitely check out whether the TPS course with Apologia matches up with the College Board's new official AP syllabus for chem.

 

I'm not sure whether one course or the other would be more difficult. From the descriptions they sound about equally demanding to me, so difficulty may depend on your dd's affinity for the subject. As an example, my dd did the regular levels of both Apologia chemistry and physics. She liked chemistry and did well without much struggle, but she hated physics and struggled to get through it.

 

FWIW, my ds did Apologia Adv Chem independently and thought it was very good. He didn't take the AP test though, so I can't speak to whether it is/was good prep for the old chem AP test.

[Dicentra]

Thanks, Connie, for trying to decide which is more difficult! :) Does it make any difference to say that it's just a regular Physics course and that the Chemistry isn't AP. The description says that it takes both Chemistry + Advanced Chemistry (+ 6 extra sessions with the professor) to prepare for the AP Chem exam, but the Chemistry isn't actually an AP class. Does that make sense? I'm new to all the AP stuff, so I don't know how unusual that is. She's taking regular Chemistry this year, and we're trying to decide between Advanced Chemistry (in hopes of taking the AP Chem exam afterwards) or Physics for 11th grade.

 

I like the idea of having 2 AP exams each year. Do you really think it's an issue that the Chemistry exam will be new? Is it worth waiting just for that?

 

Anyone else want to weigh in on comparing the difficulty level of the two classes? :)

 

 

I get what they're saying but they wouldn't be able to "ramp up" the course in the last 6 sessions to the level of the AP exam if the rest of the year wasn't rigorous so even though the course (without the last 6 sessions) isn't being called "AP Chemistry", I would think (or hope) that the content would be almost the same.

 

Whether it's worth waiting the extra year to avoid the change year... Hmmm... Well, as a PP said, it is only one more year but even if the CB doesn't release an exam, the prep book publishers will have an extra year to get more on top of things. I don't know if that would balance out having a heavier load of APs in Grade 12 - I guess it would depend on your student and whether it's more stressful for her to go into an exam a little bit more "blind" because it's a new exam or if it would be more stressful to have the heavier load in her Grade 12 year. Depends on personality, I suppose. :)

 

If the Physics is Reg Physics and the Chem is sort of an Honours Chem Plus (more than Honours Chem but not quite AP Chem if they don't take the last 6 sessions) I still say that the Physics will be easier. Even if they were both at the same level (i.e. both Reg level), Physics tends to be more easily understood than Chem by most students at the high school level - Chem can be quite abstract whereas Physics is more concrete. But, as I say, others may not agree. :)

[Jen the RD]

Prof Mom, a good friend of mine is a high school science teacher and she says that the AP Chem test is one of the toughest exams because it is VERY problem oriented. The types of questions asked come from college level texts that are lots more advanced in concepts than what I've seen in Apologia. Now that is not to say that there is anything wrong with Apologia; I actually think the chemistry texts are the best of the Apologia courses. BUT, if you really want her to take the AP exam, I would consider signing her up for an actual AP chem course using a college text--maybe PAH. The other thing to consider is to have her take the TPS course and study for the SAT II Chemistry. Maybe she won't get actual credit, but it will show admissions folks that she mastered the chemistry content. If you follow some of the CB threads, there are A LOT of kids taking SAT II subject tests to improve their chances for admissions. I think these tests are holding more value in admissions than they once were. As far as the physics, Derek Owens teaches an online physics program using the Giancoli (college) text. He doesn't call it an AP course, but I know he's had many students take the test and score 4 or 5. I know you love TPS, but the nice thing about his distance learning is that your dd could move through it at her own pace maybe starting this summer with a finish date in February or March, giving invaluable prep time for the May AP exam (also before the test revision occurs). Just food for thought. Blessings, Jennifer