LCC Question

[Georgiana Daniels]

Yesterday I started reading the LCC and one thought kept recurring: is it really OK not to have a different language arts program? I haven't (obviously) read all the way through, yet, so maybe he advocates for more formal English grammar training in later years but it didn't sound like it.

 

I *like* the idea for foregoing the LA program for now but scared what the end results might be.

 

Thoughts?

 

Anyone actually do this all the way through high school?

[Mystie]

If you study Latin as thoroughly as LCC recommends, then you'll cover grammar thoroughly.

 

We're using LFC and it covers grammar pretty well, so I'm not using a separate grammar program. When mine are in late middle school I'll probably do a year (or a half-year) of sentence diagramming with Our Mother Tongue, just because I like that book and love diagramming. :)

 

Personally, I think English grammar tends to be overtaught in most homeschool plans.

[Zoo Keeper]

Not trying to pick a fight, Mystie, but...;)

 

Some kids NEED overteaching of grammar and mechanics in order for it to become part of how they think about and use the English language. I think Latin grammar can do a fabulous job of strengthening English grammar understanding, but for many children, direct instruction in *English* grammar, mechanics, and usage is needed in order for them to be able to use *English* well.

 

Many popular Latin programs (like LfC, which I also use) do teach incidental English grammar along with the Latin, but again, many children do need direct, focused grammar instruction ---in their native language. Learing the Latin can be a challenge, but expecting them to work through the grammar concept too soon in a foreign language can send some kids over the edge... Understanding it first in English can open the door for the work in Latin.

 

I am all for frequent, layered grammar instruction in the elementary years, so that you have internalized it by jr. high/high school, and can actually write well, now that you know the rules.

 

ETA: Georgiana, Memoria Press has a "less is more" philosopy with grammar, you might find their products worth a look. They are in the process of phasing out R&S grammar from their core curriculum packages, and replacing it with their own "lighter" grammar program.

[SarahW]

Yeah, I'm not sure about the philosophy that learning Latin will teach you English grammar either.

 

English grammar works entirely differently than Latin grammar. Latin is an inflected language. When it comes to oblique cases the way they are set up in English and Latin is like night and day, to point out but one example.

 

To learn any language you need to know the basic grammar vocabulary, noun, verb, etc., but how those are applied in a language can vary drastically. For reviewing/solidifying grammar concepts learning any second language in a "textbook" way will do. To actually know how these are used in English requires formal instruction in English grammar.

[Georgiana Daniels]

Thanks so much, ladies, for helping me clarify my thoughts. The kids have picked up the English grammar pretty well so far, but I definitely don't want them to fall behind at any point. It seems that the English and Latin work we've done so far has been complementary. Guess I was hoping to pare down ;)

[Jayne J]

Just adding that I have found that Latin has enabled us to cut back on grammar, but not to eliminate it entirely. I did Latin along with FLL 1,2, and 3 and then took a year off of grammar while continuing with Latin. Next year we start up with grammar again. Latin is great for keeping the material fresh in their minds during a hiatus, but I am not convinced that it replaces it entirely.

[5LittleMonkeys]

We don't/won't do formal grammar in elementary. What I'm doing with my youngers now is working really well, and I plan to stick with it.

 

Basically we do the bulk of our grammar instruction during writing. I start basic parts of speech and punctuation when they first start copywork and continue with more advanced concepts as their writing skills advance. Programs like IEW and Killgallon also have a lot of grammar in them. Learning those concepts through the context of the dc's own writing is often more effective than learning it in isolation with formulaic sentences.

 

We also do Latin, but I don't rely on that for our only grammar instruction.

 

AND I have a safety net that I will use in 7th and 8th grade to shore up any weak areas before heading into highschool. Analytical Grammar. Dd14 has just about completed Season 2 and I am amazed at how well she's done with it. I have found it to be thorough without going overboard. Of coarse I have her apply what she is learning to her own writing, which I feel is essential for cementing those concepts.

[Georgiana Daniels]

We don't/won't do formal grammar in elementary. What I'm doing with my youngers now is working really well, and I plan to stick with it.

 

Basically we do the bulk of our grammar instruction during writing. I start basic parts of speech and punctuation when they first start copywork and continue with more advanced concepts as their writing skills advance. Programs like IEW and Killgallon also have a lot of grammar in them. Learning those concepts through the context of the dc's own writing is often more effective than learning it in isolation with formulaic sentences.

 

We also do Latin, but I don't rely on that for our only grammar instruction.

 

AND I have a safety net that I will use in 7th and 8th grade to shore up any weak areas before heading into highschool. Analytical Grammar. Dd14 has just about completed Season 2 and I am amazed at how well she's done with it. I have found it to be thorough without going overboard. Of coarse I have her apply what she is learning to her own writing, which I feel is essential for cementing those concepts.

 

Great point! I do have one who likes to write stories....I think she will learn more with her own examples.

[Hunter]

I am struggling so badly at teaching English grammar without having taught Latin/Greek first.

 

I did teach my younger son English spelling and grammar, but I wasn't good at teaching it. All the grammar that he actually learned was learned during Latin and Greek. The English lessons that I was using were useless.