Need help with spelling (LOE)

[A home for their hearts]

My dd13 is a horrible speller. She is a great reader but none of it transfers over to her spelling. She misspells simples words. For example one of the words she spelled wrong this week was says, she spelled it ses! When she writes a word incorrectly she is usually competely off the mark.

I had hoped that Logic of English Essentials would be the answer, but so far I haven't seen any improvement in her writing. We are only on lesson 7 though, but she is still misspelling words that follow the rules she has already learned.

 

So, my question is, should we continue on with LOE and add in some addition practice, (if so I need ideas for practicing) or should we try another program?

[dbmamaz]

just curious, when you see her misspell a word, how do you react? I'm trying to say something to my son about the spelling rule. we havent gotten to the word says, tho - but i would probably just point out that says is the same as the word 'say' I say, you say, she says. And then ask how to spell say, and then ask how you think you would spell says

 

to me the important part is to reinforce the rules . . . not memorizing the words, but reminding them of the rules, teaching them to think about the logic and the rules.

 

Bravewriter had a facebook post the other day that you should not correct your kids writing - you should have them write, and then the next day, give it back to them and ask them to find errors. separate the process of writing from the process of editing.

 

i'm not an expert, but this is my approach

[Crazyderiver]

I use ABC and all their tricks as an extra practice supplement. It gives me lists of words that follow each rule and I select words that would be common in his writing.

 

[boscopup]

Some kids don't do well with rules based spelling. Those kids often do really well with Apples & Pears from Sound Foundations.

[A home for their hearts]

just curious, when you see her misspell a word, how do you react? I'm trying to say something to my son about the spelling rule. we havent gotten to the word says, tho - but i would probably just point out that says is the same as the word 'say' I say, you say, she says. And then ask how to spell say, and then ask how you think you would spell says

 

to me the important part is to reinforce the rules . . . not memorizing the words, but reminding them of the rules, teaching them to think about the logic and the rules.

 

Bravewriter had a facebook post the other day that you should not correct your kids writing - you should have them write, and then the next day, give it back to them and ask them to find errors. separate the process of writing from the process of editing.

 

i'm not an expert, but this is my approach

 

 

I usually tell her that the word is spelled wrong and then proceed to tell her how to spell it. In the beginning I it was more important for me to have them learn the rules and be able to apply them than memorize the words. Now that I've realized she isn't really applying the rules to her writing I think she may just need to memorize the words as well. I like the approach you mention that Bravewriter suggests. I'll give that a try. Thanks!

 

I use ABC and all their tricks as an extra practice supplement. It gives me lists of words that follow each rule and I select words that would be common in his writing.

 

 

This may help, thanks!

 

Some kids don't do well with rules based spelling. Those kids often do really well with Apples & Pears from Sound Foundations.

 

 

I've also wonder if she would do better without a rules based spelling program. I've looked at Apples & Pears before, I actually owned the first level but sold it. I'm not sure where I would place her, the first level looks a little too easy in the beginning but if we start at level two would there be gaps?

Thanks!

[boscopup]

I've also wonder if she would do better without a rules based spelling program. I've looked at Apples & Pears before, I actually owned the first level but sold it. I'm not sure where I would place her, the first level looks a little too easy in the beginning but if we start at level two would there be gaps?

Thanks!

 

They have a placement test:

 

http://www.prometheantrust.org/admin/files/placement.pdf

[Tracy]

The philosphy behind LOE and other Spalding-related programs is that you have to train the student's mind to think phonetically. Seven lessons is just not enough to see the sort of progress that you are looking for.

 

We started SWR when dd was 5yo. (The author of LOE used to be a SWR trainer, and I understand the programs to be very similar.) She was already reading several years ahead, but I could see that she could not sound out new words. Once I told her the word, she would always know it from then on. It took over two years with this intensive program before she started sounding out new words.

 

It works the same way with spelling. If you have a child that has a particular weakness, you really have to stick with the program and be consistent over a long period of time. You also have to make sure that your dc is taking an active role in spelling. Are you doing written phonogram quizzes? When you are introducing new words, is your student sounding out the words out loud as he writes? When introducing new words, do you make sure that he knows how to spell a word before he writes it, so that he doesn't write it incorrectly (and thus practice the incorrect spelling)?

[A home for their hearts]

The philosphy behind LOE and other Spalding-related programs is that you have to train the student's mind to think phonetically. Seven lessons is just not enough to see the sort of progress that you are looking for.

 

We started SWR when dd was 5yo. (The author of LOE used to be a SWR trainer, and I understand the programs to be very similar.) She was already reading several years ahead, but I could see that she could not sound out new words. Once I told her the word, she would always know it from then on. It took over two years with this intensive program before she started sounding out new words.

 

It works the same way with spelling. If you have a child that has a particular weakness, you really have to stick with the program and be consistent over a long period of time. You also have to make sure that your dc is taking an active role in spelling. Are you doing written phonogram quizzes? When you are introducing new words, is your student sounding out the words out loud as he writes? When introducing new words, do you make sure that he knows how to spell a word before he writes it, so that he doesn't write it incorrectly (and thus practice the incorrect spelling)?

 

LOE does include written phonogram quizzes, so we do those when they appear in the workbook, but we don't do them everyday. How would you recommend her taking an active role in spelling. She hates saying the wounds as she writes the words so I usually don't make her.

[Tracy]

LOE does include written phonogram quizzes, so we do those when they appear in the workbook, but we don't do them everyday. How would you recommend her taking an active role in spelling. She hates saying the sounds as she writes the words so I usually don't make her.

 

 

I am not at all familiar with how LOE is set up, but I can tell you how I would do it with SWR. First, I would have a daily written phonogram quiz. But I wouldn't quiz all of them every day. I would focus on those that you feel that she should already know from past lessons and those she needs for the current and immediate future lessons. I would continue to throw in the really easy ones and really hard ones from time to time, but I would stick with the few that she is struggling with and needs to know now. Try to keep this written daily quiz to under 5 minutes per day.

 

Next, I would focus on the active dictation. (Does LOE use dictation? I assume it does.) When you give your dc a word, he should sound it out aloud before he even writes it. You should make sure that he knows which phonograms to use for each sound. (For example, in a word such as "dance", you would clarify that the /s/ sound is spelled with a C and not with an S.) SWR has a unique tecnique called "fingergrams" in which you hold up a finger(s) for each sound representing how many letters in that sound. This is an additional memory aid.

 

As your child writes the word that he has just sounded out, he should be saying those sounds out loud. This is extremely important, because this is active learning, rather than passive learning. It also helps you see where he is making his mistakes. You should be watching him so that you can stop him if he makes a mistake. If he makes a mistake, he should sound out the word again and you should clarify the part where he made the mistake and have him write it again. It is very important that you not allow him to practice mistakes.

 

In SWR, after the dc has written the word, the student then dictates to the teacher and proceeds to mark the word and discuss applicable rules. I do not tell my students how to do this unless they cannot figure it out. My dd knows that I expect her to at least try to identify the correct markings and recite the applicable rules. I don't expect her to get them all right. But active learning is the goal.

 

After we dictate our words, we have an immediate quiz on those words. Again, this helps to cement those words in their brains and lets me see what she did not get during dictation.

 

Another part of SWR philosophy is that students need a broad exposure to language before they can internalize the patterns of language and spelling. Consequently, we are advised to cover the spelling words really quickly, even if the student is not mastering them well. We are currently doing 40 new words per week (well, at least we were before we all got sick).

 

I know that many kids don't like to do some of this stuff, like say the phonograms as they write them. But I have found that when I am lax on these things, my dd starts to make more mistakes. Consequently, I have had to be consistent and dedicated, and I have had to use some incentives and games to train my dd to do it. Her favorite is when I give her a handful of mini M&M's when we start, and then I get to eat one each time she talks out of turn. (She is a talker, and it makes our lessons way too long.) But it is really important, especially with a struggling speller or reader, that you set the rules and train the student to follow them. Once she sees that she cannot persuade you to allow her not to sound out those words, she will hopefully do it more willingly. But you have to be confident that this will help her, and you can try to be upbeat and fun about it so as not to make it seem like such a burden.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Tracy

[Kuovonne]

For example one of the words she spelled wrong this week was says, she spelled it ses! When she writes a word incorrectly she is usually competely off the mark.

 

In this example at least she isn't that far off the mark. She probably pronounces 'says' with the short /e/ sound, so her spelling makes phonetic sense.

 

I usually tell her that the word is spelled wrong and then proceed to tell her how to spell it. In the beginning I it was more important for me to have them learn the rules and be able to apply them than memorize the words. Now that I've realized she isn't really applying the rules to her writing I think she may just need to memorize the words as well.

 

When my kids ask how to spell something I model sounding it out. I feed them one phonogram at a time and clarifiy when necessary. For example if my kid asked how to spell 'says' I'd say, "to spell 'says' think 'say-s' ... /s/ ... /A/ use the phonogram [AY] ... /s/." Sometimes the kids know the rules when reminded of them but don't know which rules to apply when on their own.

 

My younger spells decently during spelling lessons, but has horrible spelling in writing, even on words that are easy during her lesson. I think that she gets hyperfocused on what she wants to say so that there is no brain power left over for spelling.

[Plateau Mama]

Are you memorizing/learning the phonograms? We are on lesson 5 and I'm already seeing lightbulbs go off with my 11 yo. When he spells a word wrong I ask him what other phonograms make that sound.

 

We do the phonogram section one day. The spelling section the 2nd day. The 3rd day we do the advanced spelling list from the LOE blog. The words he misses from there I put on a list and we review them each week until he gets them correct.

[A home for their hearts]

Are you memorizing/learning the phonograms? We are on lesson 5 and I'm already seeing lightbulbs go off with my 11 yo. When he spells a word wrong I ask him what other phonograms make that sound.

 

We do the phonogram section one day. The spelling section the 2nd day. The 3rd day we do the advanced spelling list from the LOE blog. The words he misses from there I put on a list and we review them each week until he gets them correct.

 

 

Yes we are memorizing the phonograms. She's doing pretty well memorizing them, just not applying them to words other than the spelling list.

[MerryAtHope]

This may not necessarily be an issue with your spelling program, but with automaticity--being able to automatically put many skills together.

 

When a student writes, they have to put many skills together--grammar, spelling, capitalization, creativity or correct answers, punctuation, syntax, organization, choosing vocabulary, formulating thoughts...so she isn't just focusing on spelling, and some kids struggle to use all of the needed skills at once.

 

I would give her a separate time for editing and see if she can identify some misspelled words without you. Praise for any she can find. And if she can correct any of them, praise for that too. For ones that she doesn't find, put a light pencil X next to that line if it's a mistake she knows how to correct. See if she can find and fix it then. If not, let her know the word, but let her try to analyze it. You could prompt by asking, "do you know any rules that apply," or, "does pronouncing for spelling help," or, "read *exactly* what you wrote," etc... depending on what type of mistake she made and what would help. This way, instead of you pointing out the words for her or telling her the correct spelling, you are helping her to learn some editing skills, and you are helping her use her newfound spelling skills. She needs practice analyzing words and learning how to apply what she knows--in other words, no matter what spelling program you use, you are probably going to have to help her make the transition to applying what she knws to her writing. Expect her to need some extra time to evaluate her writing--don't expect her to be able to do it all at once (ie, write a rough draft with correct spelling etc...).

 

Here's an article on automaticity that you might find helpful. I haven't used LOE, we use AAS--but make sure that you are including enough review and ways to practice those patterns that haven't become automatic yet. AAS builds that in, not sure how LOE handles it. Kids who struggle with spelling tend to need lots of review, and by seeing what mistakes she makes in her writing, you can customize that review when it comes to your spelling time by reviewing phonograms, sounds, rules, and words that she does not yet know fluently.

 

HTH some! Merry :-)

[AnointedHsMom]

For practice if you have an iPad, iPhone you could use the LOE Phonics with Phonograms app. It's only $3 dollars and is designed to compliment LOE. http://www.logicofenglish.com/products/apps/phonograms-app

 

If you can't do an app I would also make sure there is enough constant review of the spelling rules and maybe have her play on spelling city.

 

HTH!