4ofus Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 My boys have been working their way through Fred, beginning at Apples. I have read a few of the books aloud & they work the questions on paper, but lately I've been allowing them to read the chapters themselves & work the problems on paper. Fred is not our primary program btw. Today one of the kids asked for help in Honey. The question was about inventing a function with the domain being all the people in Kansas & the codomain being all the natural numbers. He was completely stumped. He really couldn't figure out how on earth he could do this. All the natural numbers is SO MANY numbers! I guess my question is.....how bad have I messed up here? By letting him go at it alone sometimes? It feels like he's missing something key & we need to back up & find whatever he didn't understand & just skated past~y'know? Any words of direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Does your son know what a domain and codomain is? I mean, if the problem was to invent a function with the domain being the people in his house and the codomain being the integers from 1-100, could he do it? That he gets what he is trying to do, basically, but is just getting overwhelmed by the thought of *all* the natural numbers? If so, I don't know that he's missed anything, per se, just that this is a stretching sort of problem. (Although he might not quite get codomain entirely, as it's the answers that might *possibly* come out, not the answers that *will* come out so it's not a matter of having to invent a function with the *range* being all the natural numbers, but a function that will have a range of *some* of the natural numbers.) Bbl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I'm doing apples with my dd6, and there've been some stretching problems - same basic concept, but now applied to much bigger numbers than anything we'd seen before. One example is when the book is talking about finding the number of objects in a set. All practice to this point had been with sets where you could find the answer by simply counting the members in the set. And then there's this problem, where it tells you that the set of all integers from 1-17 has seventeen members, and the set of all integers from 1-18 has eighteen members, and then asks you to come up with a set that has 500 members. My dd was stumped the first time we tried and the second time she came up with a perfectly valid answer, but still didnt get the pattern, even though I walked her through the examples. But she hadn't missed anything - she just couldn't make that conceptual leap right now. That is why I like doing it with her, though - I can help her make connections she wouldn't have gotten on her own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
besroma Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I do not think that you have "really messed up" if this is the only thing he is really needing help with. I think it can be a difficult concept for some to grasp. Have you looked back through the books to see what pages in LOF cover domain and codomain? I would have him review those pages (and the problems at the end of those chapters) to see if it clarifies anything for him. Also, I would look at this in your other math book, or another source like Kahn Academy to see if another explanation cements it in his mind better. Once again, just because he is asking about this does not necessarily mean he has any gaps from doing it the way you have let him. As long as he is reading the material and writing his answers down (versus simply reading the answers), I think it is fine for him to be asking for help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebacabunch Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 The kids are supposed to go back and read the chapter again if they don't understand a concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brla Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 just to make you feel better (hopefully)...my 6th grade daughter has struggled with math since beginning school. Up until we ordered LOF last spring (just over 9 months ago), she was still lost and 3 years (at least) behind her grade level. This was with us working together DAILY 45+ minutes a day cumulative. So, LOF was my "last resort" before math tutors. She got the books, sat down and worked thru the first 3 in a week - perfectly. Then on to the second set. We found several free websites that offer worksheet reinforcement activities for the things she was continuiously missing and that gave her a little extra practice in those areas. I also found a few assessment tests (horizons math is one, i believe, and I can't think of the other one right now and yes, I did 2 different ones) that allowed me to see how she was progressing. I think we did the assessment test this past September (so that was 6 months of using LOF). She had jumped from lower 3rd grade to mid 6th grade skill level! She got stumped on long division in Honey (i think), so we had to spend some time with a dry erase board and lining up our columns. Once she did it a few times, it clicked. I have made her repeat the Honey, Ice Cream, and Jelly Beans this next term, just to make sure she really "get's it" before moving on to middle school math in the Summer. I will do one more assessment as well. So, this isn't everyone's results, but it really cliicked with my daughter and we've been very pleased with this program. I would say, if you are noticing a pattern in what your child is missing, then you might want to look for some extra practice online and print off a few worksheets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4ofus Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 An update ~ tonight I actually took his book & paper & spent a little one-on-one time with it :). Child otherwise occupied. He realized he was stumped, but made an attempt ~ "Adam-2, Bob-5, Io-37, Lola-3..." You get the picture. Although he didn't write it, I read that as, "Assign all the Adams 2, all the Bobs 5...." Which I don't think passes the function test because, gosh, who knows what every.single.person's name is in Kansas, BUT, I think with a little guidance to simplify, he's really close. I guess when he asked for help, what he really needed was...help. *sigh* Worst Homeschool Mom of the Day Award. Haha. Tomorrow's a new day :). Maybe I should have titled the thread ~"LoF: There will be things in the book you will have to refresh yourself on. It might be helpful to learn alongside your child to avoid uncomfortable overreactions." Question: If he'd actually used ellipses, would it have been an acceptable example? He may ask me this tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deannajo Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Wow brla! That's awesome - we're also using LoF to remediate, but we've only just started. I hope our results are similar - both of my older daughters are far behind in math as well - we've been super inconsistent over the years, and have taken months and months off from math due to life, so now we are trying to catch up....I've been using it, starting with apples, in addition to Mastering Essential Math Skills for my 11yo, with my plans to go strictly to LoF when she's done with Mastering Essential Math Skills..and putting my 13yo in there too. Originally I thought I'd move the older girls back to Teaching Textbooks with LoF as a supplement, but after working with LoF and reading more about it, I'm rethinking the supplement aspect. Similarly I'm using it with my 8yo, starting at the beginning, and had intended to use it in addition to Math Mammoth, but have since decided to just stick to LoF all the way. We haven't gotten as far as the OP, so I have nothing to add there :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 I agree with WendyK - I'm not expecting mastery of the higher-level math concepts that are introduced in the elementary series. I'm glad that they are getting exposed to the ideas, and thinking about them, and then when they get introduced later, I can say "oh, (algebra, set theory, whatever)! this will be easy, you already learned this in Fred!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi mum Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 My boys have been working their way through Fred, beginning at Apples. I have read a few of the books aloud & they work the questions on paper, but lately I've been allowing them to read the chapters themselves & work the problems on paper. Fred is not our primary program btw. Today one of the kids asked for help in Honey. The question was about inventing a function with the domain being all the people in Kansas & the codomain being all the natural numbers. He was completely stumped. He really couldn't figure out how on earth he could do this. All the natural numbers is SO MANY numbers! I guess my question is.....how bad have I messed up here? By letting him go at it alone sometimes? It feels like he's missing something key & we need to back up & find whatever he didn't understand & just skated past~y'know? Any words of direction? Did you have a look at the answers? There is a lot of learning in reading the answers. It is not about whether they got it right on the first try, but that they did try before looking at the answers. You have to use all of the domain but you don't have to use all of the codomain. One of the options for the answers is to assign everyone to the number 21 (the constant fuction) - they have covered this already. In the answers he shows five different ways that you could do it. No, you haven't messed up. I think he has done great to come up with the answer he got. You are right, his answer doesn't work because we don't know everyone's names, but he is so close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2Cs Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 just to make you feel better (hopefully)...my 6th grade daughter has struggled with math since beginning school. Up until we ordered LOF last spring (just over 9 months ago), she was still lost and 3 years (at least) behind her grade level. This was with us working together DAILY 45+ minutes a day cumulative. So, LOF was my "last resort" before math tutors. She got the books, sat down and worked thru the first 3 in a week - perfectly. Then on to the second set. We found several free websites that offer worksheet reinforcement activities for the things she was continuiously missing and that gave her a little extra practice in those areas. I also found a few assessment tests (horizons math is one, i believe, and I can't think of the other one right now and yes, I did 2 different ones) that allowed me to see how she was progressing. I think we did the assessment test this past September (so that was 6 months of using LOF). She had jumped from lower 3rd grade to mid 6th grade skill level! She got stumped on long division in Honey (i think), so we had to spend some time with a dry erase board and lining up our columns. Once she did it a few times, it clicked. I have made her repeat the Honey, Ice Cream, and Jelly Beans this next term, just to make sure she really "get's it" before moving on to middle school math in the Summer. I will do one more assessment as well. So, this isn't everyone's results, but it really cliicked with my daughter and we've been very pleased with this program. I would say, if you are noticing a pattern in what your child is missing, then you might want to look for some extra practice online and print off a few worksheets. Wow brla! That's awesome - we're also using LoF to remediate, but we've only just started. I hope our results are similar - both of my older daughters are far behind in math as well - we've been super inconsistent over the years, and have taken months and months off from math due to life, so now we are trying to catch up....I've been using it, starting with apples, in addition to Mastering Essential Math Skills for my 11yo, with my plans to go strictly to LoF when she's done with Mastering Essential Math Skills..and putting my 13yo in there too. Originally I thought I'd move the older girls back to Teaching Textbooks with LoF as a supplement, but after working with LoF and reading more about it, I'm rethinking the supplement aspect. Similarly I'm using it with my 8yo, starting at the beginning, and had intended to use it in addition to Math Mammoth, but have since decided to just stick to LoF all the way. We haven't gotten as far as the OP, so I have nothing to add there :lol: I am glad to see others using LOF as remedial math! My ds11 just started with Farming and we're moving forward from there. He does 2-3 lessons a day, and seems to be making some great progress! I'm debating if he needs the Intermediate series as well, or just the Elementary and then onto Fractions. Opinions on this? I agree with WendyK - I'm not expecting mastery of the higher-level math concepts that are introduced in the elementary series. I'm glad that they are getting exposed to the ideas, and thinking about them, and then when they get introduced later, I can say "oh, (algebra, set theory, whatever)! this will be easy, you already learned this in Fred!" This is one of the things I love most about LOF--the introduction of higher level concepts. I love that when we do get to algebra, my kids won't be nearly as freaked out about it as I was, since they'll already be familiar with so many terms! And to the OP, I agree--you have not messed things up. Just go back, review, and then move forward! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Here's the other thing about LOF: *everything* is repeated. Over and over again, in different contexts related to Fred's life. So, I wouldn't worry about going back and starting over: talk through the concept he's stuck on, and review that chapter, for sure, but know that you will be seeing it again in the future! Sometimes the repetition helps things sink in, sometimes just seeing it presented a different way. But everything will be repeated, so it's not like if you miss something now you will have a huge gap that will make your child's math foundation wobbly. Functions are discussed in lots of the elementary books . . . and in Fractions . . . and in Decimals . . . and in PreAlgebra . . . and in Algebra . . . and that's just as far as I've gotten! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4ofus Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 This has been so helpful! We re-addressed this morning & all went off without a hitch. Then Other Son (he's on a previous chapter) hits a Function Dilemma as well. Haha. At least I was prepared :). We dug out Farming & re-read some previous function information. This was my favorite part. "Functions are easy. You have to be able to count up to 1. Each member of the first set gets assigned ONE member of the second set." "Functions are tough." Paraphrasing now: You will see them in Lof: Beginning Algebra, Advanced Algebra, Trig, & Calculus. "You will have plenty of time to learn how to count up to 1." This is just so dang funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
besroma Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 This has been so helpful! We re-addressed this morning & all went off without a hitch. Then Other Son (he's on a previous chapter) hits a Function Dilemma as well. Haha. At least I was prepared :). We dug out Farming & re-read some previous function information. This was my favorite part. "Functions are easy. You have to be able to count up to 1. Each member of the first set gets assigned ONE member of the second set." "Functions are tough." Paraphrasing now: You will see them in Lof: Beginning Algebra, Advanced Algebra, Trig, & Calculus. "You will have plenty of time to learn how to count up to 1." This is just so dang funny. I was just working on Farming with one of my sons, so I hopped on here to mention that you could go to chapter 13 for review. You beat me to it! Glad today went better. I wrote the definition of function in the front of my son's notebook in case he has questions in Honey. I like that quote also. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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