How fast can we effectively go through LOF elementary?

[Seasider]

At the rate we are going, we could presumably finish all the elementary books before the end of this school year. DD is 7yo. We also use Saxon but she LOVES LOF and I love the concepts she is learning.

 

At what point, though, would it be overkill? Would it be reasonable to move into the next Fred books (Fractions, I think?) at that age? I can slow her down to one lesson a day, but it's just so easy to do 2 or 3...

 

Please share your experiences with this. She is so happy to do math with LOF that I hate to cut her off, but I need a glimpse down the road at what to do when we run out of Fred.

[OrdinaryTime]

We are going through it pretty quickly, too. My son started Apples this summer and is almost finshed with Farming. I don't think it is recommended to go onto Fractions until you have long division down pat, though, and he will not be there yet. He likes to re-read books so I suspect he'll go through some again over the next year or so. Also, there are other fun living math books that we will use. Also, we'll probably start Beast Academy next year, and I'm hoping it fills the "fun" math slot for us.

[swellmomma]

Ds did the whole elementary series in 1 week. Now he is older but has always struggled in math, so I was sure he would not have actually understood any of it, but I did all the your "turn to play" and he got them, so if you dd is understanding them all and you are keeping going with her other math program if you finish them all quickly that is fine. Yesterday the intermediate series was released so I would move to those next before going on to fractions, even if she does understand all of the elem series.

[Chrysalis Academy]

We did the whole elementary series in 4th grade. I agree with Stan's suggestion that it's best not to move into Fractions/Decimals until long division is solid and/or they are ready for "fifth grade math".

 

You know he just released 3 new books, right? K, L, & M, an "intermediate series" which is designed expressly for kids who are done with the elementary series but not yet ready for Fractions. It just came out on Monday, people are just starting to receive it and so I'm sure we'll start to get some reviews soon.

 

We are now just about finished with Fractions. I have to say that in retrospect, the way we did it was not optimal. DD was doing Fractions as her independent math once a week, while we did MM5 M-Th. It was all going along great until Ch. 29, then it all kind of fell apart - in that, she is having trouble remembering all the fraction operations that she's learned over the past few chapters. I went through the last few chapters with her, and she took her first stab at the Final Bridge today. It was not pretty. Globally, I'm not worried, because we'll be spending a ton of time on fractions in MM - two chapters worth - starting in January. And maybe it will come more quickly after having been introduced to it with Fred. But I can definitely say that LOF Fractions - done just once a week - was not enough for dd to learn fractions. Maybe if we had done it every day, and just worked straight through it? But I'm not convinced.

 

It will be interesting to see how she does with LOF Decimals - we are on the MM Decimals chapter now, so she'll basically be working on them concurrently. I decided to have her do LOF at least twice a week, too.

 

I still think LOF is great, don't get me wrong, and dd loves to do it. I've gotten a lot out of working through it ahead of her. I still see a lot of LOF in our future. But in the whole ongoing debate about whether Fred is "enough" on its own, this was definitely a wrinkle. You could argue that I didn't give LOF Fractions a fair shake, only doing it once a week, but I suspect it wouldn't have been enough anyway. Although the concepts do get repeated, over and over, in Decimals and the 2 Pre-Algebra books, and probably in Physics as well . . .

 

Sorry for the long digression, but I've been thinking about this all day, and figured it might be useful, or at least not boring, to someone!

[Seasider]

Oh, I didn't realize the intermediate books were out yet! Those will stretch our time a bit. I guess when we hit long division that will be a good indicator of what needs to come next. If she gets it quickly/instinctively I might be scrambling again, we'll see.

 

Rose, I am with you on the thought that, as wonderful as LOF is, I think there's a case to be made for it not being the only math curriculum used. It's introduction (and repetition) of concepts is terrific, but I don't see it fostering computation speed, something that I wince over but see as a necessary skill because the reality is that one day this kid will have to participate in standardized testing. Also, in our case, it's likely that my dd will one day return to a traditional school setting, so as I have stated in other posts, I think it's important for us to keep a toe swirling in Saxon. I appreciate your thoughts, and will glean from your ponderings!

[Grover]

We started Apples in November 2011 and we're 3/4 of the way through Ice Cream now. That's been with a few breaks along the way. DS(6) read all of the books by himself over about a week, but we've been reading them to each other and writing down all of the answers over the year. We'll finish Jelly Beans before Christmas and were going to start Fractions in the New Year, but now that L, K and M have come out (they're in transit right now :-) ) I'm hoping that'll slow us down a little more. He's ready for Fractions though, so we may do both - I think we'd be ok through to the end of physics (so Fractions, Decimals and the two prealg, then physics) but I don't know about after that yet... the intermediate series gives us time to slow down again.

[NittanyJen]

Take time to "play" with the ideas in each chapter-- there is a lot more in those books than just the "Your Turn to Play" problems. In Apples, in one of the early chapters, there is a picture of the 7 pencils and different ways to add 7. Okay, so dump out a box of 250 colored pencils. Pick out 24. How many ways can we make 24? Just by adding? Can we make different groups that make 24? Oh! Cool! So . . . this exercise gives us ways to make . . . multiplication . . . and division . . . and fractions. How about 36 pencils? Again, multiplication, division, and fractions. Not ready for all that yet? What about all the number bonds, a-la Singapore? How about 100 pencils-- now you can introduce decimals and place value. You can spend a week or more just on that one picture.

 

Move forward to the pictures of the clocks. How long did you spend on clock skills from there? Play with the clock ideas. There is a place where Fred moves in increments of 5 minutes. How many increments of 5 are there in an hour? Does this mean a clock can always remind you of 5x12? What about 60 / 5 or 60 / 12? What about clocks and what they can tell you about 20's? 15's? Can you use a clock to help you demonstrate fractions (a quarter of an hour?). Again, there is a week or two of fun there, just from the pictures of the clocks in one of the books.

 

In one of the books he talks about Archimedes. Look up more information about Archimedes. Read about him, get a book from the library about Archimedes.

 

Sets are mentioned throughout the Fred Elementary series, including great information about Domain, CoDomains, and other properties of sets that many college students arrive without a firm understanding of. Take your time, slow down, and really have fun with these sets, and really dig in and grab these concepts completely before moving on. Union, disjoint sets. Can more than one thing map to a codomain, or was it the other way around? Does your 7YO really have that completely nailed down already?

 

I would say take your time. Don't be afraid to go through the books a second time, even, and get the details that may have been missed; I would say the YTTP problems are the least of the teaching that exist in the books. Now, for elementary, I too would hesitate to use them as the sole curriculum without a lot of self-supplementation; they would act for me as more of a "guide" than a be all and end all. The upper level books have been, for DS11, more than sufficient so far. We have been thrilled with the completeness of instruction from Fractions on up through most of Beginning Algebra so far (I do make sure he reads it slowly enough to really get the math out of it; he is advanced in math, and he sets his own pace, but I any time he has struggled the problem has not been the book; it has been him zipping through and not reading carefully. Going back and reading more carefully has always solved the problem). The upper level books are constructed more "completely" than the elementary books.

 

Everyone uses the books differently, in a manner that is right for their family-- quick review, supplement, complete curriculum. That's my take. There is plenty to be found in the elementary books, but it does take parent involvement and time. DS9 certainly *can* read them himself, and when he does, he goes through them much faster than when I read them with him, but he doesn't get nearly the same content out of them as he does when I read them with him-- no big surprise. As the adult reader, you have to be on the lookout for all the gems that are right there waiting to be discovered.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Take time to "play" with the ideas in each chapter-- there is a lot more in those books than just the "Your Turn to Play" problems. In Apples, in one of the early chapters, there is a picture of the 7 pencils and different ways to add 7. Okay, so dump out a box of 250 colored pencils. Pick out 24. How many ways can we make 24? Just by adding? Can we make different groups that make 24? Oh! Cool! So . . . this exercise gives us ways to make . . . multiplication . . . and division . . . and fractions. How about 36 pencils? Again, multiplication, division, and fractions. Not ready for all that yet? What about all the number bonds, a-la Singapore? How about 100 pencils-- now you can introduce decimals and place value. You can spend a week or more just on that one picture.

 

Move forward to the pictures of the clocks. How long did you spend on clock skills from there? Play with the clock ideas. There is a place where Fred moves in increments of 5 minutes. How many increments of 5 are there in an hour? Does this mean a clock can always remind you of 5x12? What about 60 / 5 or 60 / 12? What about clocks and what they can tell you about 20's? 15's? Can you use a clock to help you demonstrate fractions (a quarter of an hour?). Again, there is a week or two of fun there, just from the pictures of the clocks in one of the books.

 

In one of the books he talks about Archimedes. Look up more information about Archimedes. Read about him, get a book from the library about Archimedes.

 

Sets are mentioned throughout the Fred Elementary series, including great information about Domain, CoDomains, and other properties of sets that many college students arrive without a firm understanding of. Take your time, slow down, and really have fun with these sets, and really dig in and grab these concepts completely before moving on. Union, disjoint sets. Can more than one thing map to a codomain, or was it the other way around? Does your 7YO really have that completely nailed down already?

 

I would say take your time. Don't be afraid to go through the books a second time, even, and get the details that may have been missed; I would say the YTTP problems are the least of the teaching that exist in the books. Now, for elementary, I too would hesitate to use them as the sole curriculum without a lot of self-supplementation; they would act for me as more of a "guide" than a be all and end all. The upper level books have been, for DS11, more than sufficient so far. We have been thrilled with the completeness of instruction from Fractions on up through most of Beginning Algebra so far (I do make sure he reads it slowly enough to really get the math out of it; he is advanced in math, and he sets his own pace, but I any time he has struggled the problem has not been the book; it has been him zipping through and not reading carefully. Going back and reading more carefully has always solved the problem). The upper level books are constructed more "completely" than the elementary books.

 

Everyone uses the books differently, in a manner that is right for their family-- quick review, supplement, complete curriculum. That's my take. There is plenty to be found in the elementary books, but it does take parent involvement and time. DS9 certainly *can* read them himself, and when he does, he goes through them much faster than when I read them with him, but he doesn't get nearly the same content out of them as he does when I read them with him-- no big surprise. As the adult reader, you have to be on the lookout for all the gems that are right there waiting to be discovered.

 

Jen, I love this - you are definitely my LOF inspiration!

 

I have a question about the bolded, and about how you use the upper books (Fractions on up). Do you go through them with your ds, or does he do them independently? We did the Elementary series together, on the couch, and we always had great discussions and would go deeper into various aspects, and as you said, I would bring things up that dd would not have noticed, or would have whizzed right by. But once we got to Fractions, I tried to "follow directions" and do what Stan says - take myself out of the equation, let her learn to "learn by reading", all that stuff that he lectures parents about in the Introduction. And you know what? It hasn't been nearly as effective. Reading your post makes me have this epiphany - maybe instead of putting Fractions on the shelf, we should read it again, together? and discuss? (she's gone through it on her own, and really started struggling in Ch. 29, and clearly has not mastered the last several chapter's worth of material).

 

I am really struggling with math independence with dd. Not struggling with her, but struggling inside my own head. How independently should she be able to work at this point? Seeing a continuum of "working entirely together" to "working entirely on your own" where should a 5th grader be? O, not to focus on the should, but how can I help her to move along this continuum toward eventual independence?

 

I get hung up sometimes, thinking that if she were still in ps, she would have to work way more independently than she does now, with me . . . but then the whole reason I brought her home from ps was because I thought the education (particularly in math) was ineffective, so the last thing I want to do is try and replicate it, or hold it up as a standard! But I worry that I am being too much of a crutch, that I am holding her back from developing independence?

 

What I do with her is much more like tutoring than like classroom teaching. And I think that's the right thing right now. But when, and how, to help her work more independently? I thought that LOF Fractions might be that stepping stone, but I realize that she just hasn't gotten as much out of it as if I had worked with her, so what is the point of that? Is she just not ready for it? I don't know . . .

 

Sorry for this long meandering hijack, but this is really on my mind. Any thoughts or advice would be welcome. Maybe it will even help the OP, too! :001_smile:

[NittanyJen]

Jen, I love this - you are definitely my LOF inspiration!

 

I have a question about the bolded, and about how you use the upper books (Fractions on up). Do you go through them with your ds, or does he do them independently? We did the Elementary series together, on the couch, and we always had great discussions and would go deeper into various aspects, and as you said, I would bring things up that dd would not have noticed, or would have whizzed right by. But once we got to Fractions, I tried to "follow directions" and do what Stan says - take myself out of the equation, let her learn to "learn by reading", all that stuff that he lectures parents about in the Introduction. And you know what? It hasn't been nearly as effective. Reading your post makes me have this epiphany - maybe instead of putting Fractions on the shelf, we should read it again, together? and discuss? (she's gone through it on her own, and really started struggling in Ch. 29, and clearly has not mastered the last several chapter's worth of material).

 

I am really struggling with math independence with dd. Not struggling with her, but struggling inside my own head. How independently should she be able to work at this point? Seeing a continuum of "working entirely together" to "working entirely on your own" where should a 5th grader be? O, not to focus on the should, but how can I help her to move along this continuum toward eventual independence?

 

I get hung up sometimes, thinking that if she were still in ps, she would have to work way more independently than she does now, with me . . . but then the whole reason I brought her home from ps was because I thought the education (particularly in math) was ineffective, so the last thing I want to do is try and replicate it, or hold it up as a standard! But I worry that I am being too much of a crutch, that I am holding her back from developing independence?

 

What I do with her is much more like tutoring than like classroom teaching. And I think that's the right thing right now. But when, and how, to help her work more independently? I thought that LOF Fractions might be that stepping stone, but I realize that she just hasn't gotten as much out of it as if I had worked with her, so what is the point of that? Is she just not ready for it? I don't know . . .

 

Sorry for this long meandering hijack, but this is really on my mind. Any thoughts or advice would be welcome. Maybe it will even help the OP, too! :001_smile:

 

 

 

I would go back to the point where she is struggling, and have her start there again. I made my older son a separate section in his math notebook, and asked him to take notes in it-- write out the "rules" he learned, or to even explain to himself "why" something worked the way it did if he saw the reason why (if he had his own epiphany). If your daughter doesn't want to write it out (my son is sometimes resistant to that) have her explain the section to you-- what is going on? Why does it work? That way, you are staying true to Fred-- you are not doing the teaching-- but you are letting her teach it to you, and if she isn't getting something, you'll see it. Similarly, if you really think she may be missing something, have her narrate to you as she works the problems. Sometimes having to explain it out loud will make a difference.

 

If she is still stuck, there is always the $5 Math Mammoth fractions book to fall back on to get over a rough spot :). My older son hasn't needed that, but my younger son definitely benefits from seeing things presented in multiple ways; he is gifted in math, but he just retains things better when he sees it different ways (he does MM, Fred, and Singapore, plus Khan and Penrose, and will still get through 2-3 levels of math this year).

 

Sometimes, getting stuck in Fred means that there is some underlying skill that needs more reinforcement. By hearing the lessons out loud, you may be able figure out what that is. Some extra work in Khan Academy may help to iron that out for a while-- it may be that she simply isn't ready for the rest of Fractions just yet! If it stops being fun and turns to tears, I would shelve it for a while.

 

Good luck!

 

Jen

[Seasider]

Jenn, thanks so much! I am so glad you chimed in! I've been feeling like there must be some happy medium - not too fast and not too slow - for both retention and student enthusiasm. Just a few days ago we hit a Your Turn to Play with a reprise of the function game. I found myself thinking, now why haven't we just played this on our own at random times during the week? Nice to hear your further ideas. I am saving all these thread comments in a word document so I can refer to it as we progress through the remaining elementary and the intermediate books and reach the point where we engage fractions.

 

I am still :bigear: !