Talk to me about Logic of English

[Chrysalis Academy]

I know there have been lots of posts about LOE, but the search function isn't working right now and I have been obsessing about it for the last, oh, 4 days! and I need some input. So, if you are using or have used LOE,

 

• what did you like about it?
  
• what didn't you like about it?
  
• how does it compare with OPGTR?
  
• how old was the child you used it with?
  
• is it a complete LA program? If not, what else do you need?
  
• if it needs supplementing, what goes well with it?
  
• anything else you can tell me about it . . .
  

 

Thanks!

[Hunter]

There are free training videos on the website. The $10 training manual includes a LOT of the curriculum.

 

No one talks about the grammar but so far I love it. The grammar lessons are quite a bit harder than the spelling words, so many people are going to feel a struggle there, unless they are not teaching the spelling WORDS, but are instead content to use those words to ILLUSTRATE the new RULES they are learning.

 

I dont like the cursive hand. The author seems to be using a hand that is half way between HWOT and Spalding while doing the training lessons, and that is NOT the hand being used in the curriculum. When she went looking for a computer font she stumbled upon one already half developed that she could copyright. I don't know how much convenience played a part in her choice. I just know I do NOT like it at all compared to Spalding.

 

While the forum was down I obsessed over tweaking LOE, or figuring our what to do after. LOE is NOT finished. And the author has no immediate plans to publish the rest of the curriculum and is busy with Foundations beta. Happy for me, in the middle of an OCD phonics frenzy, I noticed how much LOE is based off of ABC's and All Their Tricks. I'm pretty confident, I can patch in most of the gaping holes after finishing LOE with the Phonics Made Plain which is linked to ABC's.

 

I prefer to use How to Tutor, Spalding 6th edition cursive, and Sentence Family before starting LOE.

 

Then LOE pretty much as is, except for the handwriting.

 

Then the plan is Phonics Made Plain, "Punctuation Patterns" (google it) and maybe some of The Art of Styling Sentences.

 

Once I figured out a workable "good enough" after plan, my recommendation of the program has skyrocketed.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks, Hunter. That's especially helpful about the grammar.

 

Anybody else? :001_smile:

 

My 6yo (who I desperately wish I could hs, but can't right now because of working/$$) is learning "funny phonics" in school, which has sent me on this serious quest for something better . . . .

[BugsMama]

Hunter- have you seen her advanced spelling lists she is working on? I plan fully on repeating LOEE with the advanced list.

https://www.logicofenglish.com/component/k2/item/326-spelling-list-1

[Hunter]

Hunter- have you seen her advanced spelling lists she is working on? I plan fully on repeating LOEE with the advanced list.

https://www.logicofe...spelling-list-1

 

 

No I had NOT seen these. Thanks! I can't find the root page for these lists. I see list 1 you linked to. This list then links to list 2. Are there more yet?

 

And she is not marking the lists? :confused: EDIT: see below.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Hunter- have you seen her advanced spelling lists she is working on? I plan fully on repeating LOEE with the advanced list.

https://www.logicofe...spelling-list-1

 

 

Wow, that's great - this will make it much easier to work with both kids in a more appropriate way - they would each have their own spelling list to go with the Lesson, with the older having a more advanced list that is hitting the kind of thing she needs practice on. I like.

[Hunter]

Oh, okay, she is marking the words in the videos.

[Hunter]

And there is still no planned coverage of any of the advanced phonograms? Some of the advanced phonograms just are not that advanced. The phonogram "rh" in rhyme and rhythm is critical in my opinion. I can cover that with ABC's and Phonics Made Plain, but it's a major shortcoming in the curriculum. And the other advanced phonograms all come up in common words and science vocabulary.

[kirstenhill]

I know there have been lots of posts about LOE, but the search function isn't working right now and I have been obsessing about it for the last, oh, 4 days! and I need some input. So, if you are using or have used LOE,

 

what did you like about it?

 

 

My favorite things -- It teaches the rules and phonograms in a way that makes sense to me, it's all "there" (I don't have to make my own flash cards or game cards, there are very detailed lesson plans and even script if I want to use it).

 

• what didn't you like about it?
  

 

I actually could have done without the grammar -- It's just not what I wanted to focus on. But it's not hard to ignore it either. Overall with the workbook it's bulky, and there are a lot of pages you may or may not use. We didn't care for the paper it's printed on (thin). However, now that you can purchase a downloadable pdf, that solves those problems. If you DC needs a lot of review, you may find yourself needing to implement it yourself. There are review lessons after every 4 regular lessons, but my DD needed review of words from previous lessons (prior to the most recent 4), and we have to remember ourselves to do that.

 

• how does it compare with OPGTR?
  

 

I haven't used that specifically. I have used Phonics Pathways, which I believe is similar in the sense they are both "sit down with a book and teach reading" sort of programs. Phonics Pathways isn't phonogram based (I don't think OPGTR is either?) in the sense that you don't learn all the sounds of a particular phonogram at one time -- you learn all the short sounds, followed by some blends, followed by the long sounds, followed by some two letter combos, etc. LOE teaches all the sounds of each phonogram. Essentials is a challenging program to teach a new reader all by itself -- you could do it, but you would be on your own to do a lot of supplementing and slow it way down. Foundations would be better suited to a new reader.

 

• how old was the child you used it with?
  

 

I'm using it as primarily a spelling program with my DD, age 8/3rd grade. She is very much a struggling speller, but is a decent reader. We're not doing any other writing program, as she absolutely flips out if asked to write anything containing any words she doens't know how to spell. So we just do the little bit of composition included in LOE and I figure we have plenty of time to catch up in writing after her spelling improves. I aim for a lesson per week with her.

 

I'm also using it as a spelling program and a continuing phonics program with my 5.5 year old K'er. I think foundations might be good for him, but I haven't felt like I had the extra $50 lying around to buy the beta. I went through quite a bit of phonics pathways with him, and I am continuing his phonics via LOE, and whatever he learns to spell is a bonus to me at this point. We also spend 15 minutes a day reading phonics-based easy readers. I plan on a lesson every 2 weeks with him, though sometimes he has made it through a lesson in a week.

 

We are just minimally covering the grammar sections, as I have other plans of grammar materials I want to do with DD starting in 4th grade.

 

• is it a complete LA program? If not, what else do you need?
  

 

I guess I am not sure what is all typically included in a "complete" program. Obviously there is no literature component, which I consider to be a part of the big picture of language arts...but I don't know if that is typically included in a "complete LA program" or not. I think the quantity and type of writing is less than what might typically expected of students in 3rd grade and up...so if you are thinking of using it with a student that age or older and they don't have writing hang-ups like my DD does, you might need to supplement with additional writing instruction or practice of some sort.

 

• if it needs supplementing, what goes well with it?
  
• anything else you can tell me about it . . .
  

Thanks!

 

I am not sure what would go especially well with it. Anything else? I really like the games. I think even if you don't use it for anything esle, the games would make a nice supplement to any phonogram based spelling program.

 

Hope that helps!

[Chrysalis Academy]

My favorite things -- It teaches the rules and phonograms in a way that makes sense to me, it's all "there" (I don't have to make my own flash cards or game cards, there are very detailed lesson plans and even script if I want to use it).

 

 

 

I actually could have done without the grammar -- It's just not what I wanted to focus on. But it's not hard to ignore it either. Overall with the workbook it's bulky, and there are a lot of pages you may or may not use. We didn't care for the paper it's printed on (thin). However, now that you can purchase a downloadable pdf, that solves those problems. If you DC needs a lot of review, you may find yourself needing to implement it yourself. There are review lessons after every 4 regular lessons, but my DD needed review of words from previous lessons (prior to the most recent 4), and we have to remember ourselves to do that.

 

 

 

I haven't used that specifically. I have used Phonics Pathways, which I believe is similar in the sense they are both "sit down with a book and teach reading" sort of programs. Phonics Pathways isn't phonogram based (I don't think OPGTR is either?) in the sense that you don't learn all the sounds of a particular phonogram at one time -- you learn all the short sounds, followed by some blends, followed by the long sounds, followed by some two letter combos, etc. LOE teaches all the sounds of each phonogram. Essentials is a challenging program to teach a new reader all by itself -- you could do it, but you would be on your own to do a lot of supplementing and slow it way down. Foundations would be better suited to a new reader.

 

 

 

I'm using it as primarily a spelling program with my DD, age 8/3rd grade. She is very much a struggling speller, but is a decent reader. We're not doing any other writing program, as she absolutely flips out if asked to write anything containing any words she doens't know how to spell. So we just do the little bit of composition included in LOE and I figure we have plenty of time to catch up in writing after her spelling improves. I aim for a lesson per week with her.

 

I'm also using it as a spelling program and a continuing phonics program with my 5.5 year old K'er. I think foundations might be good for him, but I haven't felt like I had the extra $50 lying around to buy the beta. I went through quite a bit of phonics pathways with him, and I am continuing his phonics via LOE, and whatever he learns to spell is a bonus to me at this point. We also spend 15 minutes a day reading phonics-based easy readers. I plan on a lesson every 2 weeks with him, though sometimes he has made it through a lesson in a week.

 

We are just minimally covering the grammar sections, as I have other plans of grammar materials I want to do with DD starting in 4th grade.

 

 

 

I guess I am not sure what is all typically included in a "complete" program. Obviously there is no literature component, which I consider to be a part of the big picture of language arts...but I don't know if that is typically included in a "complete LA program" or not. I think the quantity and type of writing is less than what might typically expected of students in 3rd grade and up...so if you are thinking of using it with a student that age or older and they don't have writing hang-ups like my DD does, you might need to supplement with additional writing instruction or practice of some sort.

 

 

 

I am not sure what would go especially well with it. Anything else? I really like the games. I think even if you don't use it for anything esle, the games would make a nice supplement to any phonogram based spelling program.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Thank you so much for the thorough responses! My fingers have been hovering over the "buy" button at the LOE site all day . . . My dd6 came in while I was watching the Training videos, and ended up sitting through 2 of the lessons with me, and writing Spelling List 1. I think this will be great for her. I also think I can tweak it to use as a spelling program for dd10, who is a great reader and writer, but a pretty poor speller - and I am starting to notice some phonics issues with her reading aloud, which I think is a result of the "funny phonics" she got in school. I don't want to see her hit a wall with reading advanced books, and was listening to SWB's lecture on preparing a middle schooler for GB study in high school, and she suggested going back through a phonics program with an older child to avoid just this issue.

 

So what is holding me back??? I dunno, guess I am feeling really, really poor right now with dh having 2 furlough weeks just in time for the holidays . . . I guess I'm looking for somebody to cheerlead me across the finish line! Is this program as cool as it looks? I can use it with both kids . . . I can get the pdf . . . should I go for it?

[stm4him]

I know there have been lots of posts about LOE, but the search function isn't working right now and I have been obsessing about it for the last, oh, 4 days! and I need some input. So, if you are using or have used LOE,

• what did you like about it?
  
• I like that it is all there and includes all the pieces and parts I need and it is so open and go. I love that it includes grammar using only words they know how to spell. I also love that it teaches them to ask questions to label the parts of speech like Shirley Grammar but doesn't get them diagramming yet (which I will do in CC's Essentials in 4th-6th grade). I really like that she focuses on how to write a good sentence and that she works on vocabulary development and dictation, which really helps them apply what they've learned outside of the lesson.
  
• what didn't you like about it?
  
• So far there is nothing I don't like about it except that it isn't finished (can't wait for the advanced level to come out) and that the lessons take a long time. We split them up into one day of phonics (phonograms/exploring sounds), one day of spelling, and one day of grammar. When we hit assessment lessons we assess on the first day, play games the second day, and review the third day. Altogether that makes 120 lessons (plus the intro lessons). That is one year of instruction.
  
• how does it compare with OPGTR?
  
• It is different than OPGTR because it is Orton-Gillingham/Spalding based. They need to be able to write to use the program as well. The phonics are more accurate in my opinion. It has more pieces and takes longer, though. I think OPGTR can be used with a younger child and then switch to LOE if one wants to, but I'd start LOE by 2nd grade so you can do the advanced level in 3rd and move on to diagramming and more intense grammar in 4th-6th.
  
• how old was the child you used it with?
  
• I am using it with an 8 year old and a 10 year old but for my younger kiddos I plan to start them at 7 and I think they will do very well.
  
• is it a complete LA program? If not, what else do you need?
  
• I do not add anything for spelling, grammar, or phonics while using LOE. What I do add is composition (IEW Level A book like Fables, Myths, and Fairy Tales or All Things Fun and Fascinating) and handwriting and copywork plus literature and oral reading. We use The Writing Road to Reading to teach manuscript in preschool, then move to LOE's manuscript book in K and their cursive book in first grade. After that they use Classically Cursive from Veritas Press for reinforcing good handwriting and copywork in 2nd and 3rd grades. Next year we will use Pre-Scripts books as well from CC for this. My kids use Veritas Press literature comprehension guides and Bob Books for oral reading in preschool and early K and then switch to McGuffey Readers when they finish those. They read those aloud to me. Before using LOE I use Saxon Phonics starting in preschool and ending at the end of first grade. Then we move to LOE. I may consider using LOE's Foundations instead but I need to see it first. I think Saxon is a good lead into LOE for now because it is very thorough and also based on Orton-Gillingham methods. I also use the Phonics Museum workbooks in K and 1st for more handwriting and reading comprehension, etc. just because the workbook is cute and I like the primers a lot but we only do this after they finish their LOE handwriting book in K and we use the 1st grade book before starting LOE's cursive. Otherwise it is too much writing. After LOE we will be doing the advanced level when it comes out and in the mean time I think we'll use the advanced phonograms and maybe English From the Roots Up and spelling lists from the website or all the extra words in the vocabulary development section. Then in 4th-6th grade they'll do CC's Essentials program which includes Spelling Plus, using what we've learned in LOE to analyze and mark our words, etc. Also, I may supplement that with Hake Grammar and Writing but we'll have to see if we have time.
  
• if it needs supplementing, what goes well with it?
  
• Answered above already.
  
• anything else you can tell me about it . . .
  
• I think it is worth the cost.
  

Thanks!

[BugsMama]

The advanced lists are coming out about once a week- I'll see if I can learn more about them. She is marking them in the videos.

 

I love LOE, I am so happy with the program and the rate at which she is coming out with new materials. I *think* the advanced program is next after the learn to read program- you would go from Logic of English Foundations (learn to read- available as beta now, final publish in the spring... and it's fantastic) to Logic of English Essentials (which I am repeating next year with the advanced list), and then for now, she recommends learning the advanced phonograms with the cards and proceeding to a root word program, incorporating in the same spelling dictation with those words. The spelling rules are all covered in Essentials, so the way I see it, once you learn the process of teaching, and know the phonograms, you don't need much else. (although I will be purchasing the advanced program when it comes out).

 

The website talks about how 400 words are covered, and I really wish they would change that. 400 words are on the spelling lists. BUT- you are reading, and learning so many MORE words than that. I should go through a lesson and count how many are there. Basically the words on the list teach you the pattern, and you can apply it to so many other words. Even the words list has extra challenge words, so that one list has 5 times as many words as she is listing.

 

OP- it's an amazing program. All I feel the need to add is mechanics (like punctuation) and writing instruction. This program covers penmanship (the Foundations level, or purchased as an add on to Essentials), grammar, phonics, spelling, and some writing. It's wonderful.

 

What makes it even more wonderful is the community and people behind LOE. Denise Eide is accessible, helpful, and passionate. I have asked many questions, and all of them have been answered, either personally on Facebook, or in the form of an instructional video on you tube. It's more than a curriculum, it is a teacher education program, and it has improved my confidence in my ability to teach reading and spelling by spades.

 

I love it. (uhh, can you tell? LOL)

[BugsMama]

Oh- And I am using Foundations with an eager 4 year old, and Essentials with a 6 year old. I have friends using essentials with everything from 6-12 year olds- and all of them are loving it.

[Hunter]

 

 

So what is holding me back??? I dunno, guess I am feeling really, really poor right now with dh having 2 furlough weeks just in time for the holidays . . . I guess I'm looking for somebody to cheerlead me across the finish line! Is this program as cool as it looks? I can use it with both kids . . . I can get the pdf . . . should I go for it?

 

Did you buy it?

 

I waffled for so long. There is a lot I like, but I paid a lot to still have to stress so much about what to do next. I like having it. I wanted to see it after months and months of listening to reviews. It's what I am using now for SELF-EDUCATION, but...I'm not sure if I should be using it or not with students, and am not using it with any yet.

 

I'm not telling you yes or no. I'm just curious what you did.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Did you buy it?

 

I waffled for so long. There is a lot I like, but I paid a lot to still have to stress so much about what to do next. I like having it. I wanted to see it after months and months of listening to reviews. It's what I am using now for SELF-EDUCATION, but...I'm not sure if I should be using it or not with students, and am not using it with any yet.

 

I'm not telling you yes or no. I'm just curious what you did.

 

Yes, I decided to go ahead and spring for it - but just the pdf of the TM, for now. I think I will eventually use it with my younger dd, and at that point will probably get the workbook, but for now I am using it for spelling/phonics remediation for dd10. We went through Lesson 1 with the alternative Spelling List 1 today. She really liked it. We watched a couple of the short videos, and went through the phonemes, and syllables, and vowels vs. consonants . . . I will be using it in a very tweaked way for her, probably will use it more "as written" with dd6 at some point.

 

I just feel like I haven't done a good job with dd10 on spelling - random word lists don't really work that well for her (or random anything else, for that matter - she is a kid who likes to see how everything fits together, and why she needs to learn it). We both found Spelling Workout torturous, and I wasn't being consistent enough in doing spelling lists from her writing. As she goes along in WWS, and her writing gets better and better, her very poor spelling is getting more obvious, and I feel like it is holding her back, making her dependent on me for editing more than I like, and I didn't have any systematic plan for addressing it. Now I do!

 

I've also been noticing, as she reads aloud from more advanced works, that she has holes in her phonics knowledge, too. She's one of the intuitive types, so she figured out reading kind of overnight, and never really learned phonics well, which I can see will cause her trouble as her reading level increases. Now I have a systematic way to deal with that, too.

 

I'm so very glad to have found this. I was lucky enough to have been taught phonics well as a kid (Carden Method - the Vowel Chart!) and I've known something was wrong with how the girls have been taught to read, but I couldn't articulate what, exactly, was the problem. When I first started listening to Denise's video lectures, while the Forum was down, I actually cried! Finally, someone was explaining exactly what was wrong, and even better, giving me the tools to fix it!

 

So thanks to Denise Eide and LOE, and to all of you who helped me decide to buy it!

[Hunter]

That's what I have. Just the pdf TM. If the 2nd level comes out soon, I'll be much more enthusiastic and committed to this program, and be more likely to buy the other resources. Right now, I'm just scared to spend the time having an LD student commit to an unfinished product. They trust me to lead them the most efficient way possible to their goals.

 

I can use this as teacher education and then apply it to one of the finished products. I gifted student I would trust to apply the beginning lessons to harder words or a similar curriculum. Not LD students though. I need to be the one applying, not them.

 

And the handwriting. Just...No! Not with LD left-handed students. I doubt I will ever have a use for the workbooks.

 

I'd love to have the grammar cards, but just cannot afford them right now. And I think copying the rules is VERY good for me, so it's all good.

[SnMomof7]

That's what I have. Just the pdf TM. If the 2nd level comes out soon, I'll be much more enthusiastic and committed to this program, and be more likely to buy the other resources. Right now, I'm just scared to spend the time having an LD student commit to an unfinished product. They trust me to lead them the most efficient way possible to their goals.

 

I can use this as teacher education and then apply it to one of the finished products. I gifted student I would trust to apply the beginning lessons to harder words or a similar curriculum. Not LD students though. I need to be the one applying, not them.

 

And the handwriting. Just...No! Not with LD left-handed students. I doubt I will ever have a use for the workbooks.

 

I'd love to have the grammar cards, but just cannot afford them right now. And I think copying the rules is VERY good for me, so it's all good.

Hunter, does the manual you mention include all 83 grammar rules? I want to see them. I'm thinking of incorporating them into out memory work. Shipping is crazy expensive to Canada from LOE :(.