stm4him Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I am actually using Phonics Museum 1 and flying through it with my second child and I am starting LOE in the fall with both of my oldest. When I come across the multi-letter phonograms I am trying to tell my son all the sounds they make and which one that workbook page and/or reader is focused on. Yesterday we came to ie in the Phonics Museum and they were focusing on the long I sound such as in pie. So I pulled out my handy reference chart from LOE and it had only one sound which was long e as in the word field. So then I pulled out my WRTR copy (6th edition) and it had the long e first, then long i and then a short i but in the example it gave (lilies) I didn't hear short i. I have another short resource from Gail Busby of Latin in the Christian Trivium and it also had three sounds in the same order I think but the word given for the short i was brownie, which also makes know sense to me. I did not consult my copy of TATRAS or SWR but I was frustrated that LOE only gave one sound when there clearly must be at least two and also that I don't understand how ie can say short i (at least in the examples they gave). Can anyone clarify this? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 no sense....not know sense....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirstenhill Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Quick reply here... ie says /short e/ in friend ... Not sure if there are other examples? This is in the advanced phonograms in LOE. I think that Pie isn't actually the ie phonogram...it's e making i say its long sound...it's following the pattern of words like pike or pine, there just doesn't happen to another letter between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 The short /i/ sound comes from 'y' saying /i/ in words like â€babyâ€. They used to be said that way. They aren't now. I personally teach 'y' saying /E/ in those words, as that sound is usually spelled 'y' at the end of a multisyllable word, and 'i' in the middle of a multisyllable word. I've never been confused about the sound of /E/ in such words, and I think it adds a layer of difficulty to make kids think to spell words when the spelling is so obvious. I prefer to save think to spell for words that are harder to encode from phonics, such as â€Wednesdayâ€. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 These programs are all similar, but a little different. LOE is the most "improved". Unfortunately the improvements make it more incompatible with the other programs. There is so much I like about LOE, but...it's just too incompatible, for ME to use. Good luck :-) I enjoy listening to people talk about LOE, but so far have no desire to try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 But in her advanced phonograms she has ie as a short e sound for friend and a long e for the word brie (which I don't understand how that differs from the long e sound in field). She has it on a side panel part about how it only says long i in 5 words but I don't know why it wasn't included. There are other examples where there are only a few words that say a sound but it is still included. I don't think it is the same as y at the end of words or the same as a VCE (vowel consonant silent e pattern) word. I think this is different. The only reason I think she didn't include it is that it has only 5 examples. But as I said there were others with only a few and they were included. I'm going to go check her forum and see if she has an explanation. I'll give it to you guys if she does. I'm basically planning to use LOE and substitute jargon or changes I remember and like from WRTR, AAS, SWR and others..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelsi Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 But in her advanced phonograms she has ie as a short e sound for friend and a long e for the word brie (which I don't understand how that differs from the long e sound in field). She has it on a side panel part about how it only says long i in 5 words but I don't know why it wasn't included. There are other examples where there are only a few words that say a sound but it is still included. I don't think it is the same as y at the end of words or the same as a VCE (vowel consonant silent e pattern) word. I think this is different. The only reason I think she didn't include it is that it has only 5 examples. But as I said there were others with only a few and they were included. I'm going to go check her forum and see if she has an explanation. I'll give it to you guys if she does. I'm basically planning to use LOE and substitute jargon or changes I remember and like from WRTR, AAS, SWR and others..... You should post the question on her forum if you don't find it - or use the contact us link on her page. She's personally answered me when I've asked questions previously. I'm curious to hear the answer as well. I'm doing a combo of LoE and WRTR. Basically using the LoE phonograms, games, and writing curriculum (cursive) but following the WRTR style. Well, actually, I'm not doing it yet, but we're starting in 2 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 The short /i/ sound comes from 'y' saying /i/ in words like â€babyâ€. They used to be said that way. They aren't now. I personally teach 'y' saying /E/ in those words, as that sound is usually spelled 'y' at the end of a multisyllable word, and 'i' in the middle of a multisyllable word. I've never been confused about the sound of /E/ in such words, and I think it adds a layer of difficulty to make kids think to spell words when the spelling is so obvious. I prefer to save think to spell for words that are harder to encode from phonics, such as â€Wednesdayâ€. Yes, there are still people who pronounce it that way. That's why there's a standard for spellng: we cannot depend on local pronunciations to drive how words are spelled. :) This is from the Spalding site: Q. Why are baby and other words pronounced with the first (short) sound of i when most people say the second (long) sound of e? A. The Spalding Method teaches children to analyze the written spelling of words. Spelling has remained relatively constant over the years while pronunciations vary among geographical regions and countries. In the English spelling system y and i are used interchangeably, but y and e are not. For example, in the words gym, rhythm, system, we use y to represent the first sound of i. When teaching children to spell, pronouncing the word ba by (short i), helps them to write y, not e. Note that the accent is on the first syllable. When reading the word for speaking, you have a choice: have children pronounce the word as spoken in your region or maintain the original pronunciation which is consistent with the spelling. Children have no problem with the difference. They understand that pronouncing words two ways helps them spell and read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirstenhill Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Yes, there are still people who pronounce it that way. That's why there's a standard for spellng: we cannot depend on local pronunciations to drive how words are spelled. :) This is from the Spalding site: People pronounce baby b-/long a/-b-/short i/ ?? Really? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 People pronounce baby b-/long a/-b-/short i/ ?? Really? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Yes. And other words where the i is at the end (or middle, for that matter) of a word. And also remember why Spalding and its spin-offs use short i instead of /ee/ at the end of a word. Sometimes it's easy to get stuck on how *we* pronounce it instead of the logic behind continuing to pronounce it short i for spelling. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 This is from the Spalding site: Yes, I've read that and disagree with it. The only multisyllable word I can think of that ends in 'e' for a long /E/ sound is epitome, and I will teach my child to think to spell that one word (EP-i-tome is how I've always thought of it), and let the other words end in 'y' if they have a long /E/ sound. The rules for spelling work just fine that way, and 'y' and 'i' are still interchangeable. No need to make things more difficult than they need to be. :) I prefer to have more words follow spelling rules than to have to think to spell a large number of words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm4him Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 Ok, I found in the back of Uncovering the Logic of English (or near the back) that in words like die and tie the e is acting as a silent e. And she explained that when you spell dying and tying you drop the ie and change it to a y. My question then would be which of the 9 reasons for silent e would that be? To make the word longer or for unseen reasons? I'm thinking that it goes with the rule that says English words don't end in i. I will check the forum again and see if there was a response. I don't want to go off on a discussion about the long e at the end of the words. People have strong opinions on that and that is a completely different discussion..... I still don't understand the need to have the basic phonogram of long e for ie for the word field and an advanced phonogram with a long e for ie as well. And I think friend has a short i sound, not short e, but I think that is also regional.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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