Anyone else writing up course descriptions?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Not in our state. Kids can pass the classes with good grades, but we have mandatory external testing to graduate. So even if they pass all of high school they can't graduate if they can't pass the basic tests. I do not believe they are in all subjects (like electives..) but they are basic proficiency tests.

 

Is this the case in your state for homeschoolers?

 

In other words, homeschoolers are required to pass proficiency tests in order to graduate from homeschool, even though they don't get a state diploma?

 

In Virginia, there are many core courses with End of Course (EOC) exams. But because homeschoolers do not receive a state diploma, it does not apply to us. (Some homeschoolers do end up doing EOC exams to get credit for courses if they enter high school after 9th grade and intend to graduate from the public school.)

 

Or am I not understanding something you meant?

[2_girls_mommy]

No, I was actually only talking about our P.S. and accredited schools. I did go back and edit that one to put that in, but I see I edited the wrong post! I will fix that.

[regentrude]

I would think that a course description for a transcript should reflect the grading scale used as well as any "out of the norm" expectations, just as it would differentiate between a standard class, an honors class and an AP class in the same subject.

 

Stating a grading scale is completely meaningless unless accompanied by the actual exam.

I can write a tough exam and use an "easy" grading scale, or I can write an easy exam and use a tough grading scale. The percentages mean absolutely nothing.

Likewise, the syllabus or book means nothing unless the person evaluating the description has seen the exams. There is some standardization via AP test, but for anything else, I can cover the same material but can create vastly different exams that are able to produce any given grade for most students.

[regentrude]

And how does that work for them (and you, as the professor--I think I'm right that you are a university professor) ? Everything I've been seeing in material I've read from college professors is that this is a prime problem with students entering the college system. I consider a dose of reality in this area to be part of my responsibility in preparing her to function adequately in a university setting.

 

It does NOT work for them :)

I state clearly in the syllabus that is handed out at the beginning of the semester that, at the end of the semester, the grading scale is absolute. I do not curve, but assign letter grades for a fixed percentage of totally available points. If the have x or more points, they get such and such a grade. I also state that, unless the student participates in a university sponsored activity that causes him to miss an exam, there are no makeups given for a missed test, but they can drop the lowest test score (in effect, they can use the Final as a makeup for missed or bummed exam, or opt out of the final if they did well on all tests).

Every singe semester I have students who want makeups for tests, or an adjustment of the grade cuts because they missed their letter grade, or an opportunity to earn extra points. they simply do not believe that I will stick to the course policy.

All my colleagues who teach introductory classes report the same.

[regentrude]

The goal is mastery, not a grade. Why not allow your student more time? Personally, I would HATE to have to sit a final exam AGAIN because I did poorly the first time. Who wants to do all the studying again? That is the motivation for doing well the first time. Perhaps the compromise is no do-overs for tests and quizzes, but the Final exam allows for do-overs. Regentrude appears to me to be allowing retakes by calling the first exam a "pretest" but if the student does well on the pretest, it can count as the actual grade. Subtle difference in language can make all the difference to how the student views the grading practices.

 

 

Yes and no. My philosophy is more: is my student ready to conclude a course? I test this readiness with the pretest. If the student is mastering the material perfectly, then I let the grade stand. If the student is not mastering the material perfectly, that tells me that more time is required.

For math, I am shooting for absolute and complete mastery - a grade of A. Since math is cumulative, anything less than an A in a core math course indicates a lack of skills that will become a problem down the line in future math classes (stand alone classes like discrete math are less problematic and I might accept a grade of B). But there is absolutely nothing gained in accepting a low grade in algebra 1 and moving on - what the student needs for success is to spend enough time on algebra 1 to master it.

 

Things may be different for parents whose students are on a tighter time table. My son has taken AoPS algebra 1 in 6th grade- there is no rush. We found that, at the end of 6th grade, he had not covered as much of the material as I had wanted (even though it was more than a typical algebra 1 course) and had not mastered it at the level I wanted to see; so we decided that he needed to spend the first semester of 7th grade on the harder material and full mastery.

I could have gone with a wimpy math program and he would have earned his A easily. Instead, I chose to go with the hardest possible program and give him the time needed to master the content.

YMMV. It all depends on your goals. I completely agree with Ruth's first sentence: the goal is mastery, not a grade.

[Cosmos]

Stating a grading scale is completely meaningless unless accompanied by the actual exam.

I can write a tough exam and use an "easy" grading scale, or I can write an easy exam and use a tough grading scale. The percentages mean absolutely nothing.

Likewise, the syllabus or book means nothing unless the person evaluating the description has seen the exams. There is some standardization via AP test, but for anything else, I can cover the same material but can create vastly different exams that are able to produce any given grade for most students.

 

How do you deal with this issue?

 

I suppose a classroom teacher has a large body of students and over the years collects a lot of data about what is an easy test and what is a hard test. As homeschoolers we have just the one chance. How on earth can we create evaluation standards that are meaningful?

 

We're doing our first exams this year, and I'm grateful that our math curriculum comes with a final exam in the book. I'm a little stymied on how to write science and history tests, though.

[regentrude]

In a nutshell, it's the belief that you bring your best to class every day, and therefore, you are tested on the previous material every day, for a test grade. All things are created equally, and there is no, 20% participation, 10% daily work, 60% final exam. It's all equal, every single assignment.

 

 

Of course that is a valid grading system. As I said before, it all depends on your goals and expectations, and there are many different ones. They may even differ by subject.

I can easily see using a system like this for English, where a constant participation in literature analysis and discussion and writing etc is the main goal of the course, and where it is much harder to formulate the one final "product" of the education.

But I view math as completely different. Because of the cumulative nature of math, it does not matter whether the student is able to work the problems during the week the new concept is introduced and practiced - the only thing that really matters is whether the student is able to apply this concept after months and years. Because that is the whole point of math instruction. In subsequent years, the concepts will not occur in an isolated fashion of one concept per problem, but a mixture of all concepts will be required to solve ONE single problem. Which means the student must have retained ALL concepts. (I feel very strongly about this because I teach physics at a university and deal with math shortcomings on a daily basis)

You may have completely different goals, of course.

When you grade this way you truly separate the A students from the C students. For a student to get an A, they HAVE to be "Excellent."

Sure. But people define "excellent" in different ways. See, for me it means excellent simultaneous mastery and long term retention of every concept from the year. I do not grade soft skills like participation and homework completion, but comprehensive subject mastery alone.

I may have different opinions from most people here because I come from a different educational tradition where subject mastery is what grades are based on and rare tests and comprehensive exams are what determines the grades in public school and university. (Just for comparison: a public school student in my home country has only 6 math tests per year in middle school and 4-5 in high school, and these almost completely determine the grade.)

[regentrude]

How do you deal with this issue?

 

In short: You decide for yourself what your goals and standards are to be.

You can use daily work as a guideline - for example, I write my math exams modeling them on practice problems my student has worked over the course of the semester, and I make sure that every concept I consider important is included in the exam.

 

You can have expectations for the kind of written work you expect your student to produce, for the amount of material you expect your student to memorize, etc.

You can also decide how much weight you assign each skill; whether certain mistakes are so fundamental as to lose all the points, whether some merit a small deduction and partial credit.

In the end, YOU are the one who decides what your student needs to accomplish to deserve what grade.

 

How on earth can we create evaluation standards that are meaningful?

You can use standards developed by the publisher of your curriculum and use their tests. Nothing wrong with that.

Writing your own exams requires familiarity with the material and some subject expertise.

ETA: It is also worth thinking outside the box. You could have your student demonstrate mastery in a totally different way: by giving an oral presentation, writing a long report, participating in National History day or science fair. You do not always need to have a "test" .

[coffeefreak]

(Just for comparison: a public school student in my home country has only 6 math tests per year in middle school and 4-5 in high school, and these almost completely determine the grade.)

 

You make some good points, but this still doesn't separate the excellent students from the average. As a matter of fact, I have a GREAT short term memory, so I would cram for tests the morning of and make an A, but not retain any of the knowledge. As a result, I had decent grades in math, and could not pass a college math course. I guess the argument can then be made that there is no perfect grading method, and there will be loopholes in all of them.:glare:

[regentrude]

You make some good points, but this still doesn't separate the excellent students from the average. As a matter of fact, I have a GREAT short term memory, so I would cram for tests the morning of and make an A, but not retain any of the knowledge. A

 

Ah, but that completely depends on the kind of test!

I can design an exam to test long term retention of concepts by giving problems that require the application of new and old material. I can write the exam so that parts of the problems can not be solved by simple memorization of practice problems and procedures, but only by synthesizing the concepts in a novel way the student has to figure out himself, which only the top students would be able to do. Combining such problems with straightforward problems resembling homework, I would be able to construct an exam that allows for a very fine graduation and separation of excellent, very good, good, and average students.

Cramming and using short term retention without long term understanding would, in such a test, only result in an average grade.

 

Of course, if the teacher is not interested in going to such trouble, one ends up with courses where half the students earn A's.

 

ETA: In addition, the grading scale helps differentiating between good and outstanding students. Back home, the grading is so strict that out of a class of 30 students only 2 or 3 have the highest number grade on any written test. Only one or two students out of 30 would have all A's (their respective number equivalent) on their report card at the end of the school year.

Edited June 8, 2012 by regentrude

[coffeefreak]

Ah, but that completely depends on the kind of test!

I can design an exam to test long term retention of concepts by giving problems that require the application of new and old material. I can write the exam so that parts of the problems can not be solved by simple memorization of practice problems and procedures, but only by synthesizing the concepts in a novel way the student has to figure out himself, which only the top students would be able to do. Combining such problems with straightforward problems resembling homework, I would be able to construct an exam that allows for a very fine graduation and separation of excellent, very good, good, and average students.

Cramming and using short term retention without long term understanding would, in such a test, only result in an average grade.

 

Of course, if the teacher is not interested in going to such trouble, one ends up with courses where half the students earn A's.

 

ETA: In addition, the grading scale helps differentiating between good and outstanding students. Back home, the grading is so strict that out of a class of 30 students only 2 or 3 have the highest number grade on any written test. Only one or two students out of 30 would have all A's (their respective number equivalent) on their report card at the end of the school year.

 

I think that's excellent. The problem with American schools is, they won't allow for that. Hence all the grading curves. In high school, if less than half the class passed the test, they re-gave the test, and if the highest grade on the test was less than 100%, the highest grade became the A, and it pulled everyone else up in points. College was similar. I remember in college I was one of 3 students making an A in a history 101 class. The Dean forced the prof to implement a grading curve so more of the students would be able to pass her tests. She refused so the school allowed all the students that made a C or lower in her class to re-take it the next semester free of charge. She (the professor) was not invited back the next year. Ridiculous.

 

This has been a good discussion!