luvnlattes Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) vs. junior high level? I plan to use Apologia Physical Science next year with both my 9th grader and my 8th grader. Their web site says you can use this text for 9th grade and the private school in my hometown does use it for freshman. We completed Apologia General this year and I plan for him to take Apologia Biology at our co-op in 10th grade (the pre-req there is that the student must be 15 so that is why we're waiting). However, I'm not comfortable with both of them doing the same work and one receiving high school credit. Also, I'm not interested in giving the 8th grader high school credit for this course. So my question would be what would you be sure to include or add that you believe should be required in all high school science courses? I plan to have him do lab reports and they will be graded. We did not consistently do this for General and I did not grade them. I also thought about requiring the module summaries at the back of the book but wonder if they're busywork. I've also considered adding a couple of papers but I don't know if that is typically required for high school science. Or would you treat it as high school level based on the web site and other information, and not worry about the 8th grader tagging along? Thanks for any thoughts you have. Edited May 23, 2012 by luvnlattes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) What makes a course high school level? In my opinion, two things: 1. the amount of material covered, and 2. the depth of synthesis/analysis/problem solving required from the student. I do not consider writing papers a necessity for a high school science class; students in college science courses usually do not write papers either. Labs (and lab reports) are required if you list it as a science course with lab. ETA: I do not like to have my students complete fill-in-the-blank, chapter summaries, study guides etc for credit. I test mastery of material with a few exams (not more than 3 per semester). Edited May 23, 2012 by regentrude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvnlattes Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 ETA: I do not like to have my students complete fill-in-the-blank, chapter summaries, study guides etc for credit. I test mastery of material with a few exams (not more than 3 per semester). Thanks for your feedback. There are tests at the end of each module and I forgot to say that I have thought about giving him a mid-term and a final in addition to the chapter tests. The 8th grader would not do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Speaking specifically of Apologia, I do not award high school credit for General Science or Physical Science. These are general overview courses as preparation for more intensive study later...the prerequisites to the high school level work. Our freshman year here begins with biology or chemistry. I tend to look at what is covered in 1 semester of a freshman level college course taught to non-science majors (Gen Ed Science) and then I cover that material over the course of a year - my definition of regular high school science courses. AP classes, imho, cover prerequisites for science majors that would normally be covered in one semester in college, spread over the course of one year in high school. This is based on my experience with several tier 1 uni's that structure "college biology" or "college chemistry" classes for non-majors somewhat less rigorously than for majors since the former is for Gen-Ed and will likely not be followed up by more indepth study, while the latter is prepping students for higher level material. However, that's just one opinion. I would imagine there is quite a variety of opinion on what constitutes high school vs. not in the sciences. Our local school does give credit for physical science in the 9th grade however most of the students who take this in 9th grade are not in the college bound track and are planning on taking life science the following year and then no science after that. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Faith, So, if I have a student who has done Apologia Physical Science in 9th grade, should I put it on the transcript? I read on the Apologia website that Physical Science can be used as a high school science, but agree that it is on the light side. Dd will be doing Biology, Chemistry and Physics for 10th, 11th, and 12th. Also, can I add to the Physical Science this summer to bring it up to a high school level? We used the Redwagon tutorials, which added some challenge for the tests. Thank you. 1togo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Faith, So, if I have a student who has done Apologia Physical Science in 9th grade, should I put it on the transcript? I read on the Apologia website that Physical Science can be used as a high school science, but agree that it is on the light side. Dd will be doing Biology, Chemistry and Physics for 10th, 11th, and 12th. Also, can I add to the Physical Science this summer to bring it up to a high school level? We used the Redwagon tutorials, which added some challenge for the tests. Thank you. 1togo Given that your student will be taking higher level courses, and not stopping at remedial sciences such as life sciences after physical, but will have higher coursework, it's probably fine to show it on a transcript. I think most colleges are used to seeing that. This is especially true for non-STEM bound students. However, if my child were hoping to enter a STEM related major, I would shoot for getting in a fourth, higher level of science. One idea would be, if the senior year allowed it, to study advanced biology and physics at the same time or add the second level of chemistry along with the first level of physics. Another option is to think outside the box and look for science electives in astronomy, geology, botany, etc. You can use a freshman college level text for this. My sister took a fantastic freshman college astronomy course for non-majors during her first year at uni. She loved it! I had a chance to look at the text and it was an awesome, algebra based introduction to that science. I wanted to use the text with ds, but this has been 12 years now and the information is out of date and I can't find an updated edition - I'm trying to find out if there was a name or publisher change...same authors or what??? - you know...in her book Pluto is still a planet and there weren't any Hubble photos, etc....very out of date! So, a lot is going to depend on the progression post high school. For a STEM student, I would look at trying to have four, fairly rigorous, widely accepted as high school level if not AP level credits in science. But, if we are talking about a future humanities major who will be required to take one Gen-Ed science class in college, then I wouldn't sweat it. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Thanks, Faith. Dd has no idea what she wants to do, and until this year, we hadn't considered STEM. That seems to be changing. Also, we may be moving to state where we will be using a cover school, and their academic track requires 4 sciences, beginning with Biology. Now, I need to rethink the rest of her high school courses. We're going to try to add a 4th science the senior year, so she will be doing courses I planned for the senior during 10th and 11th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I tend to look at what is covered in 1 semester of a freshman level college course taught to non-science majors (Gen Ed Science) and then I cover that material over the course of a year - my definition of regular high school science courses. AP classes, imho, cover prerequisites for science majors that would normally be covered in one semester in college, spread over the course of one year in high school. This is based on my experience with several tier 1 uni's that structure "college biology" or "college chemistry" classes for non-majors somewhat less rigorously than for majors since the former is for Gen-Ed and will likely not be followed up by more indepth study, while the latter is prepping students for higher level material. I use similar guidelines. I find, however, that the content of what I consider high school knowledge is more comparable to two semesters of an introductory science course for non-majors. In physics, for example, and algebra/trig based college course for life science students has one semester of mechanics and one semester of electricity, magnetism and optics, each with three hours of class; both are necessary to get the coverage I would expect from a high school course (or equivalent to AP physics B). Similarly, what we cover in chemistry is taught over two semesters of introductory chemistry at college - I have not seen any syllabus for a college class that addresses all content in one semester. Not even one for majors; they would cover the material in more depth, but still over two semesters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvnlattes Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) Dd will be doing Biology, Chemistry and Physics for 10th, 11th, and 12th. Also, can I add to the Physical Science this summer to bring it up to a high school level? We used the Redwagon tutorials, which added some challenge for the tests. This is our plan as well. 1Togo, I haven't hear of the Redwagon tutorials. I will look in to those. Given that your student will be taking higher level courses, and not stopping at remedial sciences such as life sciences after physical, but will have higher coursework, it's probably fine to show it on a transcript. I think most colleges are used to seeing that. This is especially true for non-STEM bound students. However, if my child were hoping to enter a STEM related major, I would shoot for getting in a fourth, higher level of science. One idea would be, if the senior year allowed it, to study advanced biology and physics at the same time or add the second level of chemistry along with the first level of physics. Another option is to think outside the box and look for science electives in astronomy, geology, botany, etc. You can use a freshman college level text for this. My sister took a fantastic freshman college astronomy course for non-majors during her first year at uni. She loved it! I had a chance to look at the text and it was an awesome, algebra based introduction to that science. I wanted to use the text with ds, but this has been 12 years now and the information is out of date and I can't find an updated edition - I'm trying to find out if there was a name or publisher change...same authors or what??? - you know...in her book Pluto is still a planet and there weren't any Hubble photos, etc....very out of date! So, a lot is going to depend on the progression post high school. For a STEM student, I would look at trying to have four, fairly rigorous, widely accepted as high school level if not AP level credits in science. But, if we are talking about a future humanities major who will be required to take one Gen-Ed science class in college, then I wouldn't sweat it. Faith Thank you for all this info. Right now, I can't imagine this son choosing a STEM field but I don't want to limit his choices if I can help it. Most likely he will be going to one of the state colleges. He has expressed interest in astronomy so I will keep that in mind if we need to double up on science at some point. Edited May 23, 2012 by luvnlattes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) So, a lot is going to depend on the progression post high school. For a STEM student, I would look at trying to have four, fairly rigorous, widely accepted as high school level if not AP level credits in science. But, if we are talking about a future humanities major who will be required to take one Gen-Ed science class in college, then I wouldn't sweat it. I just like to offer a different experience when threads start leaning towards the idea that Physical Sci in 9th will eliminate STEM opportunities. I know homeschoolers sometimes have to "prove" themselves, and if a student doesn't have strong test scores or other things that stand out, then a really "rigorous looking" transcript may be a bit of a help. But my oldest was public schooled in a very low-standard public high school. He had the basic 3 science courses and took no advanced science. He was still accepted at all colleges he applied, as a STEM student. He was sought out by employers long before he graduated and now has a very sciency-career in petroleum engineering (plans and problem-solves for natural gas wells around the midwest). I know one other homeschooled boy in a very STEM track (Ph.D candidate) and he didn't have anything special for high school science. I know this is a small sample, but I also have never read or watched a scientist bio (such as Howard Hughes science videos) that described an advanced high school science track as part of the segue into an actual science career. And our local college-prep public high school (ranked 76th in the nation per the 2011 Newsweek article) does Conceptual Physics in 9th for all students (they call it Physics 9). I never noticed that the transcript meant all that much at the colleges we visited. High school transcripts are subjective and impossible to gauge. For all these reasons, I am very comfortable with Physical Science on my youngest son's 9th grade transcript, even though he also seems to be heading in a STEM direction. That does not mean that I have no standards. That just means that I feel math is much more pertinent to a STEM career, and would rather spend the time there. (Writing is my second focus area, still not science.) It also means that I feel a lot of high school science leans towards the memorize-and-forget (and hate-it-as-you-go) category and that is not what I seek with homeschooling. Just one other way to look at it, Julie Edited May 23, 2012 by Julie in MN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvnlattes Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 Thanks for your perspective and sharing your experiences Julie. I hadn't really questioned having him do physical science in 9th until I decided to have his younger brother do it with him. That made me feel that there should be some differentiation between the two grades, but maybe that's not necessary. They will just be on two different "tracks" I suppose :) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Thanks for your perspective and sharing your experiences Julie. I hadn't really questioned having him do physical science in 9th until I decided to have his younger brother do it with him. That made me feel that there should be some differentiation between the two grades, but maybe that's not necessary. They will just be on two different "tracks" I suppose :) . Why do you need to differentiate? If the younger one is able to do the same as the older brother, I'd just do the same thing for both. Makes the course an easy high school course for older and rigorous jr high course for the younger - no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Why do you need to differentiate? If the younger one is able to do the same as the older brother, I'd just do the same thing for both. Makes the course an easy high school course for older and rigorous jr high course for the younger - no big deal. :iagree: I think there may be some differentiation that comes naturally as you encourage your older to take his testing and his lab reports and such more seriously. I also like your idea of giving the semester exams to the oldest, but I'd let the youngest try them out as well. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Why do you need to differentiate? If the younger one is able to do the same as the older brother, I'd just do the same thing for both. Makes the course an easy high school course for older and rigorous jr high course for the younger - no big deal. I'm in exactly this situation with my older sons. Oldest is a sharp kid but my middle son has had no trouble being right there with him. I finally decided that I would pick a 9th grade science that would be a good pick for the oldest, and just have the younger son do it too. There might be something like a subject test to quantify it for the 8th grader or it might end up as just something great that he did that will prepare him to do the subject at a higher level when he is in the high school grades. So the mantra is to pick what is appropriate and challenging for the high schooler and let the 8th grader just have the advantage of getting one additional year of challenging education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in FL Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 When I went to the HSLDA high school workshop (6-8 hours), they do suggest Apologia Physical Science as a high school science course. They are a GREAT resource for homeschooling high school and they give 2 different college bound tracks (definitely worth looking into.) Also, I went a very competitive HS in the Chicago suburbs with very strong science and math departments. They offered IPS (Intro to Physical Science) as the standard freshman science with Biology as the honors track. I realize times have changed, but when you look at the degree of math difficulty in the Apologia Physical Science curriculum, you'll see it it best suited for 8th grade and above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvnlattes Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 Why do you need to differentiate? If the younger one is able to do the same as the older brother, I'd just do the same thing for both. Makes the course an easy high school course for older and rigorous jr high course for the younger - no big deal. I don't know!!! :tongue_smilie: I just felt like they should be different. ....let the 8th grader just have the advantage of getting one additional year of challenging education. This is how I need to shift my thinking. I'm still stuck in, "This is what we do in 8th grade....This is what we do in 9th grade....blah, blah, blah." Thinking of them being on two different tracks might help me let go of this. My middle son will be doing the same math as oldest next year as well. I've just gotten used to that, which played a part in having them do the same science. I don't want to hold middle son back yet I want to challenge oldest a little as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvnlattes Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 They are a GREAT resource for homeschooling high school and they give 2 different college bound tracks (definitely worth looking into.) I will look into this. It seems as if I'm going to have 2 different tracks for my 2 older boys. Thanks for the suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Speaking specifically of Apologia, I do not award high school credit for General Science or Physical Science. These are general overview courses as preparation for more intensive study later...the prerequisites to the high school level work. Our freshman year here begins with biology or chemistry. :iagree:Same here. ds 17 read apologia bio as a 7th grader and re-took it, with labs in h.s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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