Advice...What would you do?

[Wren5]

Okay, I am trying to decide what to do for LA next year. I have two accelerated students, 1 a 7yr. old girl who will be going into 3rd, 1 a 9yr. old going into 5th, and a slower (on paper- but really smart with hands-on type stuff) 11 yr. old going into 5th. I'm struggling between what I want to use with them (MCT), and something they can do somewhat independently line Essentials in Writing. I keep waffling between something I know will get done with our schedule (that's more independent stuff) or something that I think they would really enjoy and make English more useful to them. (I'm not a grammar person either, so it has to make sense to me or be independent:))

 

MCT - I like the way it is presented, the poetry (not just 1 small unit each year), and the way it looks to instill a love of language (it reminds me of LoF which all my children love)

-I don't like that it looks teacher intensive (my eyes crossed trying to understand some of the level 2&3 stuff:blink:)

 

I would like to do the same level for all 3 if the curriculum is teacher intensive, so..what to do?

 

For reference, my 7dd spells well and can write nice 4-8 sentence paragraphs, neither boy enjoys writing (although the 11ds will produce a really nice 1 pg. personal narrative if he does it by dictating to me), my 9ds is super quick to get things (explain it once and he's got it) but doesn't apply that knowledge to paper in LA very well.

 

We have tried:

R&S (like what it teaches alot, but hard to cull the busywork, and boys have a hard time with all the writing)

PLL (to "light" for my Grammar loving hubby's taste)

CTGE (This is what we are currently using, the boys don't mind the work, but it doesn't seem to be translating into improvement in their work outside of the "workbook", dd does fine but if I change the boys it would be easier to change all of them, and I would like to challenge her more)

 

The boys will have a co-op writing class in addition to whatever we choose, so they don't need extra writing instruction (it covers creative writing and research papers) and they both are in Latin, so I liked the Latin focus of MCT.

 

Any thoughts?

[KirstenH]

I love MCT, but I prefer it as a supplement. I believe that for a motivated parent, it can be an excellent stand-alone program, but that it requires a lot of diligence and hands-on attention to make it so. In our family, it works better to have a good basic LA program as our baseline for making sure we cover everything, and then MCT is gravy and enhancement on top of that. It's just less pressure on me to use it this way, so I don't have to worry about whether or not I'm wringing every last drop of utility out of the program.

 

I'm new to homeschooling, but I'm a professional writer and editor to whom language is very important. Take my opinion in that context, for whatever it's worth.

[Wren5]

Thanks for the input, I guess my main concerns with the MCT is that it will confuse me (the teacher!) and would be so teacher intensive, we wouldn't do it properly and I really need something this next year we can do consistently that will give them a good foundation in grammar and writing.

 

My hubby dislikes asking them questions like "what is an adverb" and them saying :confused:. Or having them write a sentence for him and it being poorly spelled or very slowly done.

 

I have not really pushed grammar with them and he wants that to be more of a focus this coming year (nice handwriting, writing, spelling, and grammar). So, I need something thorough, that I will do diligently with them, that will translate into improvements in daily writing! (I know, why not ask for the moon :D)

[Testimony]

I wondered what was wrong with Rod and Staff. I mean, I have to admit that I just love the way it covers a topic in its entirety. If the topic it verbs, it tells every way a verb is used. You do not have to do the writing part. A lot of people on these boards use something else and skip the writing part. I like it because I think it does a very good job of explaining the parts of a paragraph.

 

What R&S did you do? My older son stepped into Rod and Staff 6. I never did R&S prior to 6. The reason I ask is you stated that it had a lot of busywork. I did not find that with 6,7, and 8.

 

Blessings in your homeschooling journey!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Wren5]

I did R&S 1st through 4th with my two older children. I found that by 3rd grade we were spending 45 min. to an hour on English and still not doing everything in the books. Now some of that was instruction time, but they both struggled with writing ~20 questions out and fixing them each lesson. (to me it is busywork if they have 20 of the same types of questions in one day, maybe to others that is simply thorough) Granted, I could have cut down on the repetition some, but I wasn't sure what to cut and what to keep, so we did it all.

My hubby is not a fan of doing grammar orally and so even though we did some of that also, it still seemed like to much. Since then I have learned more about culling unnecessary things, but I would prefer to use something that I don't have to edit so much. Now, I haven't tried any later years because of my previous experiences, and I do agree that they cover everything well, I'm just not sure how to cut it down to manageable bites, especially for boys that hate writing. Let me know if you have any suggestions :001_smile:

[Farrar]

I'd worry less about the grammar piece and more about just supporting their writing and getting them to write more and enjoy writing more. I assume what you're saying is that their writing is still grammatically weak? If that's true for a child who hasn't had formal grammar or foreign language, then I'd say it's time to do that. But in your case, your kids have had 4 years of a very solid grammar program, plus one of the best languages you can do for grammar. I'd go at it the other way and focus on grammar through editing. But I understand that you may be coming at this from a really different place.

[Aurelia]

Have you looked at KISS grammar? I hear it is very thorough, and challenging. If they pick it up quickly, you can just skip some of the practice exercises.

[Caribbean Queen]

My hubby dislikes asking them questions like "what is an adverb" and them saying :confused:. Or having them write a sentence for him and it being poorly spelled or very slowly done.

 

I have not really pushed grammar with them and he wants that to be more of a focus this coming year (nice handwriting, writing, spelling, and grammar).

I'd use The Writing Road to Reading for spelling, handwriting and some writing. (4-5x a week)

I'd use studied dictation for spelling and writing speed (2x a week)

I'd use Mad Libs for parts-of-speech review (1x a week)

I would not use MCT as my only writng program. Did you read the transendentalist blabber in the samples? :glare: How about Writing Tales 1 for your boys?

 

In our family, it works better to have a good basic LA program as our baseline for making sure we cover everything, and then MCT is gravy and enhancement on top of that.

 

I'm new to homeschooling, but I'm a professional writer and editor to whom language is very important.

What are you using? :bigear:

[5LittleMonkeys]

Something that might work in order to get your dc to apply their grammer knowledge to their writing would be the Killgallon books. Do a search here and you'll find lots of discussion.

 

I agree with farrarwilliams that if they've had 4years of R&S and are not able totell you what an adverb is or apply grammar skills to their writing, you probably need to come at it from a different angle.

 

I definitely would look for applied grammer methods and editing opportunities. You also might want to look at Analytical Grammer if you are looking for a more streamlined way of studying .

[Wren5]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear... I have 5 children, my older two did R & S and because of the overwhelmed feeling with it, I didn't use it with my 3 younger children. I have only used pll and CTGE with the younger three.

 

My boys are 1/2 way through Latina Christiana I, and I do see it translating into their work, so I am hoping as we go along in that it will help.

 

All three write (they recite and I type :) -they even will say "capitalize this letter or put a comma or period in here" when reciting, it's more of a motor skill issue that I take dictation for) fairly well in the sense of using grammar properly, they just can't explain what they are doing or explain the parts of speech.

 

I would not use MCT as my only writng program. Did you read the transendentalist blabber in the samples? :glare:

:001_huh: I didn't see that!, where was it, I definently don't want my kiddo's learning that.

 

getting them to write more and enjoy writing more.

:iagree:Actually, I love the writing teacher that my older 3 use. She has really gotten some wonderful essays/poems out of them. I sit in on her class and have gotten some good ideas to help them enjoy writing more, but we only see her in the spring, and so I only get those good ideas then!

 

Thanks for all the ideas of curriculum to look into.

 

*KISS-- I did look at the website, but it seemed complicated, has anyone put together a easy plan of how to use it?

 

*Writing Tales-- I can't get the link for sample pages to work :confused: I was also a little concerned about the use of fairy tales, we don't do "magic" or fairy tales, regular fiction, "tall tales" type stuff would be fine, but I don't know writing tales phylosiphy

 

The others I don't know much about, guess I'll have to look into them, thanks!

[KirstenH]

 

 

What are you using? :bigear:

 

WinterPromise LA 3. It is a bare minimum and doesn't teach anything stupid, which is exactly what I wanted. I can easily build on good and basic. It's much harder to work around a program that tries to do too much and fails to do it right.

 

I use MCT for a supplement. We enjoy it.

[Caribbean Queen]

:001_huh: I didn't see that!, where was it, I definently don't want my kiddo's learning that.

Essay Voyage sample page 7

I think the orginal transendentalists were awful writers. (not to mention wrong.)

I don't know much they are covered in MCT.

 

*Writing Tales-- I can't get the link for sample pages to work :confused:

Me neither. I remember the samples had Aesop's Fables. I am not sure if it has fairy tales in it.

 

WinterPromise LA 3. It is a bare minimum and doesn't teach anything stupid, which is exactly what I wanted. I can easily build on good and basic. It's much harder to work around a program that tries to do too much and fails to do it right.

I didn't know Winter Promise had Language Arts. I surely can't afford it. I don't need to look at the website...no... :auto:

[Rosie]

I have two accelerated students, 1 a 7yr. old girl who will be going into 3rd, 1 a 9yr. old going into 5th, and a slower (on paper- but really smart with hands-on type stuff) 11 yr. old going into 5th.

 

If you do use MCT, Island would probably work for all three of them and you could get great discussions going that way, rather than splitting them up.

 

I'm struggling between what I want to use with them (MCT), and something they can do somewhat independently line Essentials in Writing. I keep waffling between something I know will get done with our schedule (that's more independent stuff) or something that I think they would really enjoy and make English more useful to them. (I'm not a grammar person either, so it has to make sense to me or be independent:))

 

If you did MCT Island with all of them, that would take up less time than doing 2-3 separate levels.

 

MCT - I like the way it is presented, the poetry (not just 1 small unit each year), and the way it looks to instill a love of language (it reminds me of LoF which all my children love)

-I don't like that it looks teacher intensive (my eyes crossed trying to understand some of the level 2&3 stuff:blink:)

 

For us, it is teacher intensive in terms of TEACHER TIME, but I don't have to prep at all and we just do it when we have some extra time on our hands (I guess that means we use it as a supplement?) so there's no pressure. And the time spent actually feels WORTH IT, not a waste (like a workbook program would feel to me personally).

 

Are you guys the type of family that likes to do read-alouds and sit around having discussions about what you read? If so, MCT may be a good choice.

I would like to do the same level for all 3 if the curriculum is teacher intensive, so..what to do?

 

Island!

 

For reference, my 7dd spells well and can write nice 4-8 sentence paragraphs, neither boy enjoys writing (although the 11ds will produce a really nice 1 pg. personal narrative if he does it by dictating to me), my 9ds is super quick to get things (explain it once and he's got it) but doesn't apply that knowledge to paper in LA very well.

 

It actually sounds like WWE would be a good fit for your boys (and maybe your dd, too!). It would help them get pencil to paper, at least. You could possibly do WWE 3 with all of them, too. That would save time as well....

 

Thanks for the input, I guess my main concerns with the MCT is that it will confuse me (the teacher!) and would be so teacher intensive, we wouldn't do it properly and I really need something this next year we can do consistently that will give them a good foundation in grammar and writing.

 

What exactly do you mean by "teacher intensive?"

 

As far as it confusing you, I am learning along with my girls. I actually had thought that I'd had a good grammar education. Um, no. A lot of the stuff in Island is new to me. I'd never heard of a subject complement before! I'd just memorized a list of prepositions, didn't know those words could be used in other ways besides being prepositions, etc., etc...

 

It really hasn't been too bad at all for me. You go over and over and over the stuff so it eventually sinks in. I like the Practice Island book because it is just a LITTLE bit of work, but doing it once per week is helping to solidify what we have been learning.

My hubby dislikes asking them questions like "what is an adverb" and them saying :confused:. Or having them write a sentence for him and it being poorly spelled or very slowly done.

 

Does your hubby know that it's pretty normal for that age group to spell poorly and write slowly? It's also normal for kids who have not been introduced to the formal names of parts of speech (you did PLL, right?) to not know the formal names of parts of speech. I guess that's why your looking for something more formal, though, right?

 

I have not really pushed grammar with them and he wants that to be more of a focus this coming year (nice handwriting, writing, spelling, and grammar). So, I need something thorough, that I will do diligently with them, that will translate into improvements in daily writing! (I know, why not ask for the moon :D)

 

Even though I like MCT, I don't know if I believe it will translate to improvements in daily writing. I'm not one that thinks grammar instruction automatically improves writing. I think reading lots of great literature is much more likely to do so (or something like Killgallon like another poster suggested).

 

But if your husband believes grammar instruction will improve writing, and your kids like LoF, then I think MCT might be a good choice.

 

I think WWE would do more to improve handwriting (if you insisted on them doing it neatly), writing, and spelling.

 

My hubby is not a fan of doing grammar orally

 

MCT is a lot of oral grammar. The Practice book is written. And the "Writing book" has writing assignments, but we mostly just discuss or play around with those. We only actually write out 1-2 assignments per chapter.

 

HTH!

[Wren5]

Rosie,

Thanks for the specific advice :-)

 

I was thinking that if we went with MCT that we would use the island level and we do like to sit around and read (sometimes we don't get anything else done, if I don't watch the clock :001_smile:) But I am getting the impression that I would probably need to supplement to get the results we are looking for.

 

 

Does your hubby know that it's pretty normal for that age group to spell poorly and write slowly? It's also normal for kids who have not been introduced to the formal names of parts of speech (you did PLL, right?) to not know the formal names of parts of speech. I guess that's why your looking for something more formal, though, right?

Exactly! He was very good in English/grammar/handwriting (it's textbook perfect:001_huh:) and so his expectations are high in my opinion, but he's really just looking for the effort to improve and not perfection :)

 

something like Killgallon like another poster suggested)

I looked at this on amazon and it seemed more complicated than what I am looking for, or maybe it is one of those that looks complicated to implement, but when you get it home and use it, it's not?

 

What exactly do you mean by "teacher intensive?"

I want something open and go, not where I have to read lots in the teachers manual each day or plan out everything for each day. It's not as likely to get done in our house if I have to spend that time. I don't mind some of that but if I wanted to do that I would go with something like BJU English, because I like their program, but I'm not willing to put in that kind of time on 1 subject each day.

 

I will look more into the WWE for my guys. Thanks again for all the feedback. It helps to get real life opinions on this stuff.:)

[Rosie]

For us, MCT is pretty open-and-go. Once we get to the end of a chapter in Sentence Island, I sometimes put a few of the writing assignments on our schedule for the next week... but I'm also just as likely to do them orally right after we read. So,really, there's not much planning happening. We just sit down, decide which book we want to read from, and read and discuss until we feel like we want to stop.

 

I think maybe Killgallon would work best after doing some grammar in MCT or another program. So maybe that would work for the year after next? It's more for stylistic purposes, I think. I have it, but haven't used it yet. We'll be using it next year.

[Another Lynn]

Please forgive if this was already mentioned, but have you looked at First Language Lessons? I bet all three would do fine in either FLL 3 or FLL 4. You might want to start with 3 just so you can use 4 next year. You would still have to find something else after using level 4 (maybe go to MCT Town then?) It is open and go. But it does require you to get the lesson done. You could do all of them at once IF you were just they were all understanding. The lessons are scripted, so if you have one that's likely to hang back and ride the coattails of a sibling, you might have to teach that one separately which would, obviously, take more time. I don't mind FLL3 with one student, but I would begin to feel rushed if I had to use it with more than one student in separate sessions. (I tried R&S this year thinking it would decrease my teaching time, but like you I don't like wading through TMs trying to decide what to do and what not to do!)

 

If you decide to go with MCT, maybe you could add in a daily review workbook of some kind (Daily Review Language Arts, or Daily Grams, etc.) to help with usage, mechanics, and "what is an adverb" type information.

[chepyl]

Did your older two retain what they learned woth r&s? If so, I would go back to that for the younger three. It is very open and go for us. We do all of of orally right now and my son os retaining it very well.

 

I have not seen a page with 20 written samples yet, maybe that is the older books. You can get the worksheets to cut some writing, and just have them do the odd numbered sentences, or do the first 6-9 orally, each child taking a turn, then write two, of they get them correct, done; if they miss, do the next two. That would be good motivation for my non-writer to focus.

 

I have books 2-5 and don't see much busy work, there are portions meant to do orally and then just a few written questions in each lesson unless it OS a composition assignment.

 

Have you taught them keyboarding skills yet? Maybe you could do that and let them.start typing their writing assignmemts. For kids who have handwriting, this might help increase theor output and writing level.

[Wren5]

but have you looked at First Language Lessons?

Yes I did. I really liked the way WWE looked but again, we don't do magic, so all of the stories it was referencing in WWE3 in the sample I looked at(snow white, etc.) I would have to edit. Anything like WWE that doesn't have alot of magic?? (I could work with one or two assignments, but there seemed to be a number of ones I would have to change in WWE, which is a shame for me because I did like it)

 

 

Did your older two retain what they learned woth r&s? If so, I would go back to that for the younger three.

They did well with it but this was years ago, maybe the newer one's are different. I'll have to look into them.

 

Have you taught them keyboarding skills yet?

They are all working through typing lessons, so they can all type some but not fast yet. We do use the computer for some of their writing, but I have 1 computer and 3 kids, so I would have to let each one work separately!

 

Thanks for all the thoughts:)

[Testimony]

I did R&S 1st through 4th with my two older children. I found that by 3rd grade we were spending 45 min. to an hour on English and still not doing everything in the books. Now some of that was instruction time, but they both struggled with writing ~20 questions out and fixing them each lesson. (to me it is busywork if they have 20 of the same types of questions in one day, maybe to others that is simply thorough) Granted, I could have cut down on the repetition some, but I wasn't sure what to cut and what to keep, so we did it all.

My hubby is not a fan of doing grammar orally and so even though we did some of that also, it still seemed like to much. Since then I have learned more about culling unnecessary things, but I would prefer to use something that I don't have to edit so much. Now, I haven't tried any later years because of my previous experiences, and I do agree that they cover everything well, I'm just not sure how to cut it down to manageable bites, especially for boys that hate writing. Let me know if you have any suggestions :001_smile:

Sorry that I seeing this late. I was sick and my children all had the flu. I had originally asked the question because I only did R&S 6-8. I never used it prior to those levels. Since you did it in the lower levels, you have a better view of that area then I do. The reason I felt it was thorough was because it would tell you all aspects of a topic like a verb and all that it does. I would never use the examples in the book. My sons would use the workbook after reading from the book. I would only go back and do the lessons in the book if they did not do well in the workbook. The lessons in the workbook are usually cross outs, multiple choice, etc. The only time they really have to write is for writing assignments. Many moms on these boards say they use something else. So, those are tips for that curriculum.

 

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony