Feeling like I am approaching a crossroads

[redsquirrel]

I am feeling like I need to make some decisions as we approach the high school years. Next year my eldest is going to be a 7th grader so I figured this summer would be a good time to start to get ready for high school.

 

I have always assumed while the first 8 years have been very WTM based I would have to abandon that for the last 4 years of school. I have every reason to think my sons can reasonably apply to competitive colleges. They will both by 3rd generation ivy league legacies. So, IF they can make the academic cut, they stand a good chance of getting in. 'If they make the cut' being the important part of that sentence.

 

So, this past winter I took a crash course in AP tests and PSATs. I have spoken to homeschooling parents who have helped their kids get into competitive schools. They tell me similar things, that in order to get in as a homeschooler, your kid has to look a lot like the other kids. You can't be too different or they don't know what to do with you. You had better take those APs and as many as possible etc, etc.

 

At the same time, I am a classical girl at heart. Teaching this way has been wonderful for my kids. Honestly, they are a joy to teach, so if it works for me then it works for them. And so far, this method has always steered me right.

 

So, I sat down with my new 3rd edition WTM and read the entire rhetoric stage section. I had purposefully avoided it when I only had grammar stage kids. It overwhelmed me so I just didn't read it. Well, as I read I was struck with one thought, that I can do this. I get this. Logic stage has been a struggle for me to grasp. That's ok, because I think my kid feels the same way. But the rhetoric information made sense right away. 2 hours a day reading, talking and writing about literature and history? Sounds good! Having my kid read ancient Greek plays? He will love it! (Ok, I am wondering about that whole self directed rhetoric study. Has anyone's kid actually done that? Can you tell me how it went?)

 

My DH says we didn't decide to home school to turn out kids who are like everyone else. We decided to home school because we could do things differently, give our kids what they need to feel challenged. But, I am nervous. How do I do this, but not make it be too 'out there'? I know I can make a transcript that meets any basic requirements. But, I can't embark on a Great Books oriented plan and still get ready for APs.

 

I have read every thread I can find about teaching great books and what that looks like. It feels very realistic to me. But I am worried about what happens later. And I hate making decisions based on fear.

 

So, thanks for reading this far. I always so thankful I have this place to ask these sorts of questions.

[regentrude]

2 hours a day reading, talking and writing about literature and history? Sounds good! Having my kid read ancient Greek plays? He will love it! (Ok, I am wondering about that whole self directed rhetoric study. Has anyone's kid actually done that? Can you tell me how it went?)

 

...I know I can make a transcript that meets any basic requirements. But, I can't embark on a Great Books oriented plan and still get ready for APs.

 

Why not?

First of all, while I agree that some outside tests are a good validation for mommy grades, I do not think the goal needs to be "as many APs as possible".

Second, why not Great books? We do English+History combined, very close to the suggestions of TWTM. We go in chronological order, read the Great books, discuss and write about them. At the same time, while we are not doing AP, DD has been taking college classes in foreign language and physics.

Of course something has got to give. We have chosen not to study Greek and Latin but rather put more emphasis on science which, IMO, is a very weak area of WTM rhethoric stage (the level of recommended science studies is nowhere near the level they aim for in for humanities)

 

A Great Books focused education and AP tests do not have to be mutually exclusive.

I also do not agree that Great Books is "so out there",; it looks pretty normal on paper when you write "English 9" and "World History- Ancients".

[redsquirrel]

Why not?

First of all, while I agree that some outside tests are a good validation for mommy grades, I do not think the goal needs to be "as many APs as possible".

Second, why not Great books? We do English+History combined, very close to the suggestions of TWTM. We go in chronological order, read the Great books, discuss and write about them. At the same time, while we are not doing AP, DD has been taking college classes in foreign language and physics.

Of course something has got to give. We have chosen not to study Greek and Latin but rather put more emphasis on science which, IMO, is a very weak area of WTM rhethoric stage (the level of recommended science studies is nowhere near the level they aim for in for humanities)

 

A Great Books focused education and AP tests do not have to be mutually exclusive.

I also do not agree that Great Books is "so out there",; it looks pretty normal on paper when you write "English 9" and "World History- Ancients".

 

Thank you so much for your reply.

 

I was thinking that making high school more classical in focus would rule out an AP sort of education because I know the AP tests require lots of specific practices. My friend's kids were chanting historical facts and dates, authors and poems, practicing writing specific sort of essays, reviewing lists and lists of facts, it took a lot of time. But they both got lots of 5s and full scholarships to college. I also know that each was able to find the time to dig in deep with certain subjects so maybe it isn't impossible.

 

I am planning to really bump up science and math. We already do. If you were to look at where I put my financial resources and time, you might think I was more of a STEM homeschooling mom, when I am really, really not. The classical method for history and language arts flows enough for me at this point that it allows me to focus on the math and science portion of our day.

[JennW in SoCal]

How do I do this, but not make it be too 'out there'?

 

I have a few thoughts to share about your concerns and uncertainty, and I have no qualms sharing them as I've just finished a successful year of the college admissions game!! Happily finished!

 

First, I'd first recommend you define what you mean by "competitive college". After spending 12 years of your life educating children to not be like all the others do you expect them to be happy at a college surrounded by all those "AP drones"? To help you think about this I highly recommend 2 books by Loren Pope, 40 Colleges That Change Lives and Looking Beyond the Ivy League. There are 100s of colleges in this country, many of which are wonderful liberal arts schools that value the unique and intellectual education our kids are getting. Many liberal arts schools also have good STEM or arts programs -- so keep an open mind as to what kind of college to look for.

 

Second, remind yourself often that APs are not the holy grail of high school education. Your goal as a home school mom is to show outside evidence of your child's education and to do this you can choose AP tests, SAT II subject tests or community college courses. My ds never took an AP or SAT II exam, but he spent the last 2 years getting A's in his community college courses, including Spanish, Chemistry and Calculus. He didn't apply to any schools that required AP or SAT IIs, (some do) but those were schools that wouldn't have been right for him any way.

 

Third, colleges will want to see how your teen took advantage of his unique homeschool situation. Did he volunteer, work, explore some project in depth? Aside from a Great Books education, what else makes your child unique? Document everything, find good mentors who will write glowing recommendations for your teen. Not every college values this, but many excellent schools are thrilled to add unusual students to their mix of standard public schoolers.

 

Fourth, you are wise to think about this now, but your current 7th grader has a lot of growing and maturing to do before you start your year of applications, and the college that seems perfect in your eyes may not be the right fit for your 18yo. Stay true to your own Great Books inclinations and add in what ever standardized tests you want as the time gets closer. Visit colleges in 10th or 11th grades so your ds can get an idea of what this college search is all about.

 

Finally, you won't get through the application process without major angst and huge bouts of self doubt about your homeschool choices. Sad but true! All my worries and angst just melted last week as we realized, during a visit, that a school he applied to at the last minute is actually a wonderful school and the perfect fit. I can't imagine him anywhere else.

[serendipitous journey]

...

 

I was thinking that making high school more classical in focus would rule out an AP sort of education because I know the AP tests require lots of specific practices. My friend's kids were chanting historical facts and dates, authors and poems, practicing writing specific sort of essays, reviewing lists and lists of facts, it took a lot of time. But they both got lots of 5s and full scholarships to college. I also know that each was able to find the time to dig in deep with certain subjects so maybe it isn't impossible.

 

... The classical method for history and language arts flows enough for me at this point that it allows me to focus on the math and science portion of our day.

 

Am eagerly :bigear:, because I'm looking ahead to the high school years and working back.

 

I had some AP concerns similar to yours, and ran them by DH, who took AP classes at his excellent high school (my own high school memory is a blur of family dysfunction). He points out that AP History, for example, basically requires a really good understanding of history. Boardies here have confirmed that after studying for an AP History, you really know history.

 

Math & science also strikes me as a good use of AP in the classical context. Calculus is a no-brainer as a choice, since you are starting your planning so early and aiming for a competitive college anyhow. I want Button to get familiar with statistics & economics, which I think are important intellectual training and which are really passed over in WTM, and there are APs for those too. I think statistics, economics, and a solid grasp of evolutionary theory/genetics are important elements of a modern classic education, but this is a controversial view so I will just toss it out and not argue it here :). But since these sciences are not treated esp. rigorously in WTM, boosting them via AP seems sensible and wouldn't mess up the WTM treatment of anything. Except for the time involved.

 

Am curious what people think about the foreign language APs ... the Vergil-based Latin, and the Spanish literature, seem the most classical to me.

 

Are you considering trying for an AP early-ish, to free up high school time later? someone recently posted about doing a two-year history study for AP World History with her (accelerated) 13-yo.

 

Finally: it does sound like you want an actual Ivy, with the family legacy, and you're clearly thinking about things deeply; I do not want to hijjack, I'd be interested in hearing more about how you are thinking about your preferred schools. DH & I are leaning toward discouraging the proper Ivies for undergrad, since our experience has been that the non-Ivy Ivies (so to speak :D) have better teaching, better access to the professors, and often a healthier peer assortment. Plus we're sort of assuming postgrad education for any career where education caliber is extremely important. Am curious about other perspectives ... but if this is too off-topic, please say so and I'll edit this and maybe bring the question up in a different thread.

 

:bigear:

Edited April 13, 2012 by serendipitous journey

[redsquirrel]

I want to thank everyone for reading. I have had a lot going on today and haven't been able to process. I will be back tomorrow.

[Colleen in NS]

:lurk5: redsquirrel, I loved reading your OP. :bigear:

[LNC]

I want both - and may be crazy but we are planning on trying!

 

-Great books lit and history from a Christian worldview for grades 7-10

AP Eur. 11th and APUS 12th

AP Eng/Lang 11th and AP Eng/Lit 12th

 

-similar for AP science, math, Latin, and AP electives.

 

I would like to total with about 10 APs for each child. SAT subjects also for high school level courses.

[Nan in Mass]

Let me just start by saying I have no idea how to answer your question, but I do understand your question. I had to make similar decisions about how much to stay with TWTM and more experimental science versus a more traditional STEM route for my youngest, who is headed for engineering school. I also understand about family tradition. If you are looking at ivy league schools, I am quite sure you are wise to start NOW making a plan. Also, the colleges we have spoken to, even the more alternative-y ones, have wanted all those alternative/different things on top of the regular things, not instead of the regular things. I did not speak to any ivies and my sample size is pretty small, so take that with a grain of salt. So, keeping in mind that we decided not to go the AP route and I probably don't know what I am talking about...

 

Can you find out from colleges whether senior year AP classes are useful? When I was first planning high school, I ran across a very nice college admissions person who pointed out that if I was planning on counting on community college classes to show universities that my son was able to do college-level work, my son needed to take them JUNIOR year, not senior year. It may be that you need to fit the AP tests into the first three years of high school.

 

How different is TWTM approach to literature from the AP approach? One place that they might conflict is the timing of when things are read. TWTM approach is chronological, so you won't get to any modern literature until the last year. If your child has to take the AP test in May of 11th grade, this is going to be a problem. Perhaps you can search for an AP syllabus onlline (or maybe the collegeboard site will tell you) and determine which works are going to be covered, and work on covering those, WTM-style. You probably need to check to see what sort of essay-writing is required, also, and consider doing that type for the project/paper TWTM requires for each work. In other words, with some flexing, perhaps TWTM would work for AP prep? (Remember, I don't know - all I'm doing is trying to help you think of questions to ask.)

 

For math, I think there is less conflict between TWTM approach and the AP approach. For this, you need to ask when people usually take the calc AP - at the end of junior year or at the end of senior year. If it is junior year, then you need to cover calculus junior year, which means you either need to double up geometry with the algebra/precalc sequence or you need to cover algebra well in 7th grade. Doubling up might be easier. But that will take time. And time is going to be your biggest problem.

 

Science will take some scheduling, as well. TWTM science options are not very good, so doing AP sciences probably would not be in conflict with the AP route, except for the amount of time involved.

 

History is the thing that is the most different, I think. History as part of great books, TWTM-style, is not the same thing as AP history. Unless your child remembers dates and names that they read once or twice, this is going to be different. I suspect this is going to be one of your biggest problems.

 

Foreign language AP requires years of language. Again, unless you are bilingual, you will have to start early if you want to take the AP before junior year. It would be worth looking at a syllabus and thinking about what skills are involved. There might not be time to do two - Latin and something else, if you are starting now? Or if you have already done quite a bit of language, this might turn out to be one of the easier places to aquire AP scores.

 

TWTM, as written, covers government but it might cover it in a very different way than AP government. This might not be an easy one to combine with TWTM, either.

 

How many APs does your child really need? How is it done in prep schools? I would do a search of a number of prep schools and see how they schedule their students. Have you considered IB instead (so far not an at-home or on-line option but perhaps it will be by the time your children get there)?

 

Do you need to have all three sciences? If not, then I would not do all three. That will be very time consuming.

 

How many histories do you need? How long do students typically study for government, econ, geo? These might be easier if they are one year courses without anything leading up to them. It seems like (again-I havent'done this) each science takes two years, foreign language five years, math many years, and I have no idea about the English APs but I suspect those are not one year prep classes, either. Perhaps the longer ones look more impressive than the shorter ones so you need fewer of them? I have no idea.

 

I think your biggest problem is going to be time. You are going to have to choose wisely and schedule carefully.

 

Maybe you have thought of all this already. Just in case you haven't, though, I thought I'd chime in.

 

About your general decision - I made a decision sort of like that for my youngest STEM child. I chose to concentrate on TWTM and writing (weak) and math and loose exploratory sciences when he was in 9th and 10th, then switch to community college for math and science for 11th and 12th and back way off on everything else (in other words - abandon TWTM in 11th and 12th). It was a very sad decision, but as of now (at the end of 11th), it is going well. He is loving his cc chemistry class, despite its being very textbooky. It may be that you stay classical for part of high school and then abandon it for APs the last half. Or perhaps senior year, you can return to it. It might not be all or nothing...

 

Nan

[redsquirrel]

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I do appreciate it. I didn't expect my first foray into highschool planning to be so existential. I was thinking that I would spend a couple years immersing myself in the method, which is what I did in preparation for the logic state. I am not sure I have the logic stage method, but as I mentioned before, I think it is a muddle for my son as well so we'll call it even. I am starting to suspect that these middle years are all about the tangled ball of string.

 

Family tradition. Le sigh. I want to say right up front that my SONS are in the drivers seat on that one. If my kids don't want to attend a particular college, my FIL can go stew. I should also mention that my husband works at the same university. I can see it from my backyard. Talk about growing up in the shadow of the tower..... So, right now my kids are all "when I go to school there I will eat lunch with daddy every day." :lol: Yeah, that's gonna change.

 

It is true that many colleges expect to see both from home school students. They expect some unique approach to study, and they want the student to be quantifiable. I have a friend who worked in admissions (no help to me, she doesn't like to talk about it) and she was pretty clear that APs are expected. And, I have already been warned by other parents than it needs to happen in years 10-11.

 

Part of my concern is teaching an AP type of course. I know I can do it online, but that is spendy. So, it will cost in time. In fact, it will take more of my time to prepare than doing it in a more classical fashion. I have already read many of the great books and wouldn't have to do as much prep. I am also thinking I need to perhaps split my lit from my history in a solid way, rather than having them blend. I might have to have an AP history course and also have a Great Book study, and just read fewer books during the year.

 

The more I think about it, the more my head spins. And, every time I accept the reality of things like AP tests, the further away my ideal becomes. It makes me feel like a sell out. But, I always said that my goal was to provide my kids with open doors. I have told them that college etc are up to them. If they want to do something else or try a different path, we will support them in that choice. But, I don't want doors closed to them because of my mistakes. My kids are academic enough that they should have a lot of options after high school. I have to figure out a way to keep those options open.

[Chez J]

I wasn't going to reply since my child is only a rising 7th grader. But...

 

I have been wrestling with this for the past two years. Yes, I started planning in 5th grade because there are so many pre-requisites to make things happen. To take AP Physics C in 12th grade, dd must take AP Calculus in 11th grade, which means algebra 1 in 7th grade. So, 5th grade wasn't too early to start in my dd's case. :001_huh: I was not rushing her mind you, but I knew that if there was an ability and readiness on her part, that this is the schedule I needed to keep in the back of my mind. Fortunately, she is great at math and science, so it hasn't been an issue.

 

History actually is the part that has been tying me in knots every year for the reasons you outline - AP and Classical don't mesh too well.

 

I purchased some AP test prep books and took a look at what is expected for a student in APUSH. It does not really align with my goals for my student. I haven't looked at the one for AP Euro history yet. So, I am planning to forgo the APUSH test.

 

Just in the last few weeks I had a moment of clarity. I have been wanting to use Omnibus for our upper school studies. I finally figured out how I will schedule and give credit for upper school classical history. 7th grade will be our last year of ancient history, and we will skip the ancient history volume IV. Then, she will receive .5 credit each year from 8th to 11th for european history and .5 during the same period for American history for a total of 2 credits in each. These will also accrue 2 credits for American literature and European/British literature (.5 credit each year combined with composition and language). Then, 12th grade will be world history with world literature component. As part of our history course, she will also receive .25 credit each year for world geography - 1 year on Europe, 1 on Asia, 1 on the Americas, 1 on Africa and Australia (not necessarily in that order). This is a total of 6 credits in history, so 2 will have to count as electives. (Or I can just not count 8th grade, but then the credits aren't "tidy".)

 

So for us, I've decided AP will be mostly math and science: AP Chem, Physics B, one Physics C, Calculus, Statistics, French, and at least one English. Maybe I'll try to tackle government. But, 6 to 7 AP courses seems like plenty. More than she would get at our local public school. :lol:

 

I hope that this covers the "must do what everyone else does - plus take advantage of unique opportunities."

[JennW in SoCal]

The more I think about it, the more my head spins.

 

First of all, :lol: to the above! Head spinning is an Olympic-level sport for us homeschool moms.

 

Second of all, I apologize for completely missing in your original post the whole legacy issue. Literally living in next to the legacy, too, is quite something! I attended the university where my dad taught, but I transferred out after a few years, having never once had lunch with him on campus!!

 

But third of all, the point I'd really like to make. The AP exam, and score earned on that exam, is the only thing that matters. You can design the course however you want it, present it in the style that suits your family, then have your teen take the exam. And he doesn't have to go into the exam cold -- there are lots of AP prep books lining the shelves in your neighborhood Barnes and Noble. I did this with high school biology -- I had the SAT II prep book on hand and made sure that we covered every topic on the exam. My ds wound up not taking it, but he would have been prepared even though his coursework was somewhat atypical.

 

Also, your ds doesn't have to take AP History!! There are so many others to choose from! Economics, sciences, languages, Calculus, English literature. I know the Econ AP includes an essay in addition to the standardized scan-tron section -- a friend of mine spends a week or two every summer helping to grade them. In other words good thinking and writing skills ARE an asset in taking and scoring well on these exams.

 

One more point about the college application process. You get to explain your philosophy to the admissions committee through the homeschool supplement part of the Common Application. Or if the school isn't on the Common App, your course descriptions will illustrate your Well Trained Mind/Great Books approach.

 

You've got time to think about all this. You CAN homeschool the way you want, have your dc take APs and still keep doors open. If your teen has the kind of personality that would thrive in an IVY, then it won't be up to you to play the admissions game, he will be chomping at the bit, wanting to take those exams. And take a peek at the college board. There are many smart, talented, academic kids going to wonderful schools and thriving -- a WTM education can work!

Edited April 17, 2012 by JennW in SoCal

[serendipitous journey]

OP, your dilemma makes good sense to me, now that I understand the legacy + the children's drive to attend the school.

 

Here's a thread containing a post RE early AP in history, which I'm thinking of for us, to open things up in high school.

 

I think that, regarding being "different", the right sort of different is highly desirable by Ivies but the wrong sort is deadly. :) You want a transcript and an academic record that shows the child is excellent academically and is also very likely to succeed in university life outside the classroom. The APs and the standardized tests help for academic excellence, particularly in the absence of recommendations and grades from the good high schools the university is familiar with. I imagine you will have some sort of extracurricular achievement that showcases the child's initiative and maybe leadership abilities? or achievement outside home academics? If that is in place, and you have APs for, say, calculus, a language, one or two sciences, and a history OR an English exam, might that be sufficient? on top of standardized test scores.

 

Also, if the children are able, would you consider accelerating their math coursework so that they hit calculus a bit earlier? Maybe they are already accelerated on that end. I just know that's one thing we're working on here, but we are also dealing with particularly strong math talent.

 

What I am imagining here is that you could pick a great books focus -- say, history-cycle Great Books a la Well Trained Mind. Now you have a sense of what you don't want other concerns to touch: maybe you don't to be sidelined with a World History AP, but doing US History over two years as an extra course would be okay; or no histories but maybe an English; or get the history AP done at the end of middle school, take advantage of the great knowledge accumulated as you move into the high school Great Books Course. Do the Latin AP if possible, that's Vergil, straight-up Classical. Calculus, skip the AB test if possible 'cause it's incorporated into BC. You've shown the child can study & write, knows math, and has stuck with one course of study (language) over many years to develop mastery. Add a science, there are good online support options. Would that not be enough AP classes? maybe with a second science? And still room for a strong Great Books program?

 

am so curious if this sounds feasible, it's the plan I'm roughing in here. Just don't know exactly how we're going to get to the AP Latin :).

Edited April 17, 2012 by serendipitous journey