Tragic accident....

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Do you even know for a fact how well/poorly this kid generally drove compared to the average driver, how long he was at the wheel (there were other licensed drivers aboard; why would they not take turns); or whether even the best, most mature driver available would not have had the same accident under the same conditions? No. But what I'm pretty sure of is that the mother has been punished enough.

 

As far as I know, everyone in that van was either old enough to make his own decision, or had his parents there to decide for him, whether to be in that situation with that driver at the wheel. So I guess this family could not have hurt YOUR child since you would not have let your kid be in the situation in the first place. Kudos to you! To be honest, I probably wouldn't either.

 

Were other drivers on the road endangered by this particular driver? I don't know, but if that is the case, maybe it needs to be illegal for ANY 17yo to drive on the freeway. Or anyone, for that matter, since fatal highway accidents have occurred with all kinds of drivers.

 

Why are some of you so angry? You lost nothing to this accident. The person you are condemning has lost more than you can imagine losing. So like I said before, I really don't understand this thread. When was the last time this kind of condemnation of a bereaved mother ever made a positive difference?

 

Here's what we do know:

--They had a 17-year old driver driving a large vehicle with a trailer on the interstate, a situation for which he had no formal training.

--There are some questions as whether or not his driving the vehicle was legal or not in Kansas.

--The same vehicle had FIVE tire blowouts on this trip, which would tell anyone with an ounce of sense that there may be something unsafe going on.

--I disagree with Aelwydd in that I believe that if the 17 year old should not have been driving, charges are warranted against the mother or whomever was in charge of the vehicle. I don't excuse negligent behavior simply because one is related to the victims.

 

If a mother was texting while driving and caused an accident, would the response simply be "well, she made the choice for her kids"?

[BatmansWife]

April, I think you're taking my comment the wrong way. I wasn't saying it like you had to explain yourself. I didn't take your post the same way some others did, and so I didn't find it offensive. However, I don't feel I should interpret your words to someone else, when you are perfectly capable of doing so yourself!

 

Yes, I know Rebekah. Maybe I shouldn't have quoted you. The "explaining myself" was for other people. You're cool. :001_smile:

 

You know, some (if not all) of your kids are going to get into car accidents after they start driving. And some of those accidents are going to involve other people.

 

There are a lot of sad things members here post about that can easily be traced to their own bad choices. Somehow we manage to be compassionate about those things. But a mom who has lost so much apparently deserves no compassion, only scathing criticism. Why the difference? Could it be that deep down, we realize that we aren't perfect nor in complete control over our kids' safety, and we don't like realizing that we too could lose our kids?

 

They mentioned she was a homeschooler - I sure hope she's not a member here.

 

Oh, and by the way, I think maybe there should be a WTM subforum for perfect parents. You know, the ones who have never made a mistake that could lead to tragedy. Because apparently there are a number of parents like that on this board. I've never met one in real life, but that doesn't prove anything, right?

 

As for the first bold part.....nobody ever said they don't have compassion for this woman and her family. Here are some quotes:

 

I feel very sorry for this family

I'm so sad for these people

 

At the very same time a person can question what the thinking process was that could have contributed to this tragic outcome. What's wrong in just discussing it? I guess any time something controversial comes up we should all just not speak and never discuss it. Or...maybe we should just let you discuss it and share your feelings because you aren't judgemental (which is what I, and others, are being accused of by just discussing bad decisions....which I don't think really even equals being judgemental).

 

As for the 2nd bolded part: puleeze! :001_rolleyes:

 

Do you even know for a fact how well/poorly this kid generally drove compared to the average driver, how long he was at the wheel (there were other licensed drivers aboard; why would they not take turns); or whether even the best, most mature driver available would not have had the same accident under the same conditions? No. But what I'm pretty sure of is that the mother has been punished enough.

 

As far as I know, everyone in that van was either old enough to make his own decision, or had his parents there to decide for him, whether to be in that situation with that driver at the wheel. So I guess this family could not have hurt YOUR child since you would not have let your kid be in the situation in the first place. Kudos to you! To be honest, I probably wouldn't either.

 

Were other drivers on the road endangered by this particular driver? I don't know, but if that is the case, maybe it needs to be illegal for ANY 17yo to drive on the freeway. Or anyone, for that matter, since fatal highway accidents have occurred with all kinds of drivers.

 

Why are some of you so angry? You lost nothing to this accident. The person you are condemning has lost more than you can imagine losing. So like I said before, I really don't understand this thread. When was the last time this kind of condemnation of a bereaved mother ever made a positive difference?

 

I don't think any of us are angry. You seem to be, though.....which I don't get. No one is condemning the mother.

Edited April 4, 2012 by ~AprilMay~

[Aelwydd]

Yes, I know Rebekah. Maybe I shouldn't have quoted you. The "explaining myself" was for other people. You're cool. :001_smile:

 

Awesome. :)

 

 

As for the 2nd bolded part: puleeze! :001_rolleyes:

 

I wanted to say, well no chance of me becoming a card carrying member of such a forum. Not I just shared on the other thread how my inattention nearly led to my son being drowned. My Perfect Parent cover is blown forever!

[BatmansWife]

I wanted to say, well no chance of me becoming a card carrying member of such a forum. Not I just shared on the other thread how my inattention nearly led to my son being drowned. My Perfect Parent cover is blown forever!

 

:001_smile: I wouldn't be able to enter such a forum either. I know for a fact I am not a perfect parent. I'm not a perfect WTM forum member either.....I always end up starting a thread that turns into something crazy and controversial. The last time I did that it was about baby shampoo. Who would have thought?? :001_rolleyes:

[SKL]

As for the first bold part.....nobody ever said they don't have compassion for this woman and her family. Here are some quotes:

 

I feel very sorry for this family

I'm so sad for these people

 

At the very same time a person can question what the thinking process was that could have contributed to this tragic outcome. What's wrong in just discussing it? I guess any time something controversial comes up we should all just not speak and never discuss it. Or...maybe we should just let you discuss it and share your feelings because you aren't judgemental (which is what I, and others, are being accused of by just discussing bad decisions....which I don't think really even equals being judgemental).

 

As for the 2nd bolded part: puleeze! :001_rolleyes:

 

I don't think any of us are angry. You seem to be, though.....which I don't get. No one is condemning the mother.

 

Sorry, I think you should go back and re-read the thread while pretending to be an outsider. Frankly the majority of it is very uncharitable. If the intention was a PSA to convince readers to never have 20 unrestrained people in an RV while driving on the freeway with a 17yo driver, or a proposal for legislative action, it sure didn't come across that way. The addition of kind terms such as "stupid" didn't help clarify that intent, either. ETA: and you did say you were "mad."

 

Controversial topics are going to get push-back by definition. However, in my opinion, it's sad that the attitude toward a bereaved mom is "controversial" in the first place. I didn't feel that nasty toward Andrea Yates. But maybe I'm the crazy one here.

 

PS, how do you define "judgmental" if deciding someone was stupid and irresponsible and going on about it for two days isn't?

Edited April 4, 2012 by SKL

[Aelwydd]

I didn't feel that nasty toward Andrea Yates. But maybe I'm the crazy one here.

 

 

I don't have any "nasty" feelings toward this mother, only a sort of detached bewilderment. My first thought reading the article wasn't, "How could that mother have allowed this?!" It was, "What led up to all the other older adults deciding to have a 17 drive this thing? Why did they deem it safe despite the tire blow-outs?"

 

Ok? The mom didn't even factor in my initial thoughts, except it was tragic she lost some of her kids.

 

Frankly, "nasty" is a judgmental word for you to label others' feelings here. April did use the word "stupid," but she also conditioned that statement with the fact that she feels bad for the mom. That's not a sweeping condemnation of the mother.

 

The language I deal in: possibly negligent, poor judgment, questionable legality.

 

Those are words that do convey criticism, but not the kind of vitriolic emotion in your posts. If you disagree with me or someone else, that's one thing.

 

But making sweeping statements about how we apparently think ourselves perfect, or that we have "nasty" feelings--those are YOUR judgments, based upon a biased reading of others' words. You're not making an argument against mine, you're just insulting me.

 

I find it offensive that I am answering to charges that are based not on what I have said, but one what you seem to think I'm saying. And when I ask pointed questions about your comments, you ignore them, and insult me some more.

 

And finally, as a last bit of logic, Andrea Yates was not accountable for her actions because she suffers from severe schizophrenia, and also had post-partum psychosis. I hold no ill feelings towards her, only pity.

 

I don't expect sound judgment from unsound minds.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Aelwydd

[Thea]

I don't have much to add and this thread is huge---

 

I was so sad to hear about this accident and have nothing but sympathy for the driver. I can't imagine the guilt he is going to have to live with. And Mom. The guilt will eat at them and hurts my heart.

 

The legalities of it all will come out and, for his sake, it is my sincere hope that all was well on that front.

 

Having driven 8600 miles cross country and back in a 30 ft Class A RV pulling a car, I was immediately drawn to this story and just have a few things to add.

 

*Yes, 80ft is illegal to pull in a motorhome BUT this was a converted semi and was probably classed differently.

 

*All the Class A's I've seen have passenger seat belts. Not 16, but ours has a total of six belts. Our RV is older, a '99.

 

*The issue with seat belts in RVs is that only Winnebagos bolt the furniture to the frame soooo the seat belts we have in our Fleetwood are only good if the furniture remains stable (ie, minor, not major accident)

 

*Statistically speaking, RV accidents are rare. I tried to find a study to link, but couldn't find one in my quick search. I will say that our insurance for our RV is a mere $25 a month.

 

*The only times we had issues on our trip was with other drivers, especially semis and other RVs, not accounting and compensating for the wind that hits the back of the rig as you are passing or someone is passing you.

[SKL]

Frankly, "nasty" is a judgmental word for you to label others' feelings here. April did use the word "stupid," but she also conditioned that statement with the fact that she feels bad for the mom. That's not a sweeping condemnation of the mother.

 

The language I deal in: possibly negligent, poor judgment, questionable legality.

 

 

I agree. I am judging some of the choices made in this thread. I openly admit it. I don't think it compares to calling a grieving mom "stupid," but you can disagree with that.

 

Not every criticizer said "stupid" here, but I saw it at least 3 times in this thread and honestly, that hurt me. And if you didn't say it, fine (I didn't say you did), but you keep ratifying it and beating this dead horse. Also, you aren't the only person I'm talking to / about, so you needn't take my every word personally.

 

Finally - we don't know the mom's mental state before, during, or after the accident. I can understand saying "what was she thinking" but that's as far as it should go, and it doesn't need to be repeated 100 times IMO. It's called kicking a person when she's down.

[Trish]

What you deem 'common sense' they may not. It does no one any good to second guess and lay guilt at this point. States have different laws about seat belts, car seats, and the type of vehicle they are necessary in. Those that were of an age to be in car seats were ok, according to the article linked. I just don't get why we feel it's ok to discuss and place guilt in these types of situations. It's horrible and this family doesn't deserve recriminations. At least, I don't think they do. I'm sure the surviving family members are placing enough guilt on themselves without strangers adding to it.

 

I think what we discuss here is very different than what we would say to a family member involved, or anyone who knew them. The usefulness (as I see it) is that if it was something that was avoidable, perhaps a lesson can be learned by those reading here to prevent such a thing from happening to someone else in the future. (another example: today's story on the toddler who climbed into someone's top load washing machine and drowned) I certainly have no interest in laying an additional burden of guilt on anyone, however I think the survivors will have those feelings regardless.

 

If a life is saved due to the publicity/discussion of this incident, it is well worth it, IMO.

 

I am also sorry for your loss. I can't imagine.

[BatmansWife]

Sorry, I think you should go back and re-read the thread while pretending to be an outsider. Frankly the majority of it is very uncharitable. If the intention was a PSA to convince readers to never have 20 unrestrained people in an RV while driving on the freeway with a 17yo driver, or a proposal for legislative action, it sure didn't come across that way. The addition of kind terms such as "stupid" didn't help clarify that intent, either. ETA: and you did say you were "mad."

 

Controversial topics are going to get push-back by definition. However, in my opinion, it's sad that the attitude toward a bereaved mom is "controversial" in the first place. I didn't feel that nasty toward Andrea Yates. But maybe I'm the crazy one here.

 

PS, how do you define "judgmental" if deciding someone was stupid and irresponsible and going on about it for two days isn't?

 

It never started as a controversial topic. Strangely, it became so. I really don't know how. Oh...yes, I know. My choice of one word that was inappropriate, which I've already commented on. My initial post about being mad was more..."Ugh! What were they thinking!?"...not real anger.

 

I think the majority of people who have commented on this thread, or at least read it, know what we have been talking about and it isn't all the twisted things that you claim it to be.

 

I could choose to be mad at you or laugh. I choose this: :lol:

 

SKL, I'm going to try to say this nicely (although I am quite certain it will come off differently to you).....I don't know what's gotten into you. You must have a bee up your bonnet....and I think you need one of these: :chillpill: .

 

You don't need to respond to me because this should just be the end of it. I'm not going to keep responding to your comments because it's just pointless. :willy_nilly:

[SKL]

SKL, I'm going to try to say this nicely (although I am quite certain it will come off differently to you).....I don't know what's gotten into you. You must have a bee up your bonnet....and I think you need one of these: :chillpill: .

 

Simple. I was hurt and offended. I do think you know exactly why. I agree I need a chill pill and this will be my last comment on this thread.