Joan in GE Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) Hi All, This is a thread about another potential lack I've discovered...:) We read lots of literature aloud in English and while my dc listened to a fair number of story tapes in French and have heard natives reading aloud, some of them still have trouble reading aloud in a natural way in French... I've seen this happen for 2nd maternal tongue French speakers as well where learned from a parent....(I don't count my dc as 'maternal' tongue French) So this is just an encouragement to get kids exposed and practicing at young ages.... And if anyone has any suggestions about how to ameliorate reading aloud...I'm interested....I've proposed trying to read the phrase instead of just word by word... Joan Edited March 28, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momof2cm Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 My kids were raised in Dutch, listened to stories and books in Dutch, and spoke only Dutch. They did hear lots of English, but didn't start speaking it until they were 3 or 4 years old. That is also the age when they started attending play groups etc. When they started kindergarten, their schooling was done in English, but they still spoke Dutch at home. Both are fluent in Dutch, but they cannot write the language, not are they fluent readers. In fact, they read with a horrible accent, which they don't have when they speak. I am thinking this has to do with the fact that they have to think about what and how to read the words, just like they once did in English. Unless your kids learn to read in both languages at the same time, or the second (which in our case used to be our first!) language is practiced (reading, writing and speaking) intensely, it will always be less fluent than the first language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Uhm... keep on keeping on? :D I was VERY surprised with the positive effects of going back to the read aloud method (which for native languages we ditched quite early because the girls prefered reading on their own) in foreign languages. It does get better, they just need to practice a lot. It also helps if you take turns when you read (if you can read "authentically" yourself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 In fact, they read with a horrible accent, which they don't have when they speak. Yes, this is the thing! I'm trying to understand what is happening in the brain. Mine have been reading in French almost as long as in English - by one or two years difference only. And they have read a lot in French over the years - but silently. When it comes to reading 'aloud', they don't sound native. I am thinking this has to do with the fact that they have to think about what and how to read the words, just like they once did in English. Maybe it is just a matter of practice, but I was also trying to see if there is anything else to take into account... (and wanted to alert people to the need to do reading aloud in all languages) Uhm... keep on keeping on? :D I was VERY surprised with the positive effects of going back to the read aloud method (which for native languages we ditched quite early because the girls prefered reading on their own) in foreign languages. It does get better, they just need to practice a lot. It also helps if you take turns when you read (if you can read "authentically" yourself). Perhaps it is unstressful situations - reading aloud at home with just the family - a lot, which helps make it better - before reading aloud in public. Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 My family read aloud quite a lot, but my husband's family did not. When we were in college, we went back and reread aloud together all my childhood favourites - Pooh and Wind in the Willows and Lord of the Rings. Then we moved on to reading things my husband liked, like Sherlock Holmes and Jeeves. When we first began reading, my husband sounded like a 2nd grader. By the time we graduated, he read well enough to impress my English professor grandmother (who was losing her eye-sight). No foreign language was involved. It was just a matter of practice. At the time, I had had enough experience with trying to get various friends to read aloud to me while we did a boring job that I took it for granted that reading aloud is something that one has to learn how to do (unless one has never stopped doing it). Otherwise, it is very halting and some words get started wrong, making it stuttery. Weird though it seems, reading aloud and reading silently are apparently two very different skills. If that is any comfort to anyone... Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 While I agree that reading aloud and silently are two different skills, I must say I have not noticed any difference in my kids regarding those two skills. In fact, last year, my son was the only one willing to be the narrator at the church's Christmas Play. All parts were silent parts, except for the narrator. So he basically read his text from the beginning to the end, the only French native in the whole group. And he did quite well. My daughter's the same, her English reading-aloud is a match for her French reading-aloud. I'm not sure why I'm not seeing a discrepancy with my kids when you all seem to with your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Your daughter and son are still children, and they are reading aloud. I don't think my husband read anything aloud from the age of 7 through 20. I think that is the difference. My children read aloud well because they have never stopped reading aloud. It isn't a "baby" thing in my family. In an effort to make sure my son was differentiating between -é and e, I made him read some of his history aloud and then we sort of kept doing it, so I have never noticed a difference between his French reading aloud and his English reading aloud, other than the fact that his French pronounciation isn't perfect. It is the same as his pronounciation when speaking, though. It looks like I might have accidentally prevented what Joan noticed in her children. Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'm not sure why I'm not seeing a discrepancy with my kids when you all seem to with your own. I do not see a discrepancy between native languages (well, the native language & the "de facto" second native language) - but I do see with foreign languages, because it often takes a while to pick up the correct intonation and "flow"... and if you have a different script there, it gets even more interesting, because even though children can read it silently with an adequate speed, reading it aloud at the same time they are decoding it mentally can interfere a bit, I think they are always a bit slower with that unless they consciously practice - that is where I saw the improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted March 29, 2012 Author Share Posted March 29, 2012 (edited) When we first began reading, my husband sounded like a 2nd grader. By the time we graduated, he read well enough to impress my English professor grandmother (who was losing her eye-sight). ... If that is any comfort to anyone... It is a comfort Nan! While I agree that reading aloud and silently are two different skills, I must say I have not noticed any difference in my kids regarding those two skills. Maybe you are giving yours a better example than I gave mine....:) ETA - well, my one dc reads aloud better than the other so in rethinking, maybe it is partly a difference in amount of practice - as I gave them both the same example... I'm wondering if it also has to do with character...some of my ds's are the quiet types - sometimes it might be the first time they are actually saying some of the words aloud....but I don't think that is true for at least one other person maternal tongue I know...hmmm...but I haven't heard that person read aloud in their really first mother tongue... I made him read some of his history aloud and then we sort of kept doing it, so I have never noticed a difference between his French reading aloud and his English reading aloud, other than the fact that his French pronounciation isn't perfect. It's great that you are keeping at it Nan! but I do see with foreign languages, because it often takes a while to pick up the correct intonation and "flow"... and if you have a different script there, it gets even more interesting, because even though children can read it silently with an adequate speed, reading it aloud at the same time they are decoding it mentally can interfere a bit, I think they are always a bit slower with that unless they consciously practice - that is where I saw the improvement. Thanks for the encouragement from this... Joan Edited March 30, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 Someone PM'd me with a response which I think might be helpful for others...she had this in her French school growing up and her children get it now in school... "Read the sentence or passage out loud to your child and have him or her read the same bit over to you correcting for pronunciation, punctuation, emotion, etc. Of course this only works if you speak French fluidly yourself. If not, get an audio book and a copy of the actual book and use those two in concert." Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 "Read the sentence or passage out loud to your child and have him or her read the same bit over to you correcting for pronunciation, punctuation, emotion, etc. Ah ah! That may be why I'm not seeing a problem with my own kids. Most of our read-alouds are in English. So while I don't have them repeat after me, they do hear the text, as they follow over my shoulder. (well, technically, under my shoulder :D ) And when my kids started reading in English, they had an audio tape to go with their first few books, so they could hear it (almost like training wheels). They ditched the audio whenever they were ready (one book for DS, two for DD) I didn't plan it that way, but I guess I stumbled on a solution, without knowing there was a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 Interesting.....I'm trying to think now, how much time I actually spent reading aloud in French...and mine certainly weren't looking over my shoulder either...that's a very interesting observation... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mabelen Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Interesting discussion. Both my girls are very good natural readers in Spanish too. I don't know if I have done anything special for this to happen, honestly! Compared to other bilingual children we know, my kids read much better that others their age. I don't think I can pinpoint the reason why; those kids also come from similar educational, cultural and social backgrounds. The only thing I can think of is that I have and still do read aloud to and with them often, even now that they are 8 and 15 years old. Edited April 4, 2012 by Mabelen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 Just found (refound) the part in the Well Trained Mind about "Oral Reading" in the Grammar stage and thought that it applies here too.... In the 3rd edition p 63 she discusses it. An important point that hasn't been mentioned in earlier posts is that you should: practice only on passages that are easy for the child. She has other points too and I'll let you read them... Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 It would be somewhat laborious, but you could get an audio book and the corresponding text, then read each sentence aloud, unpause, listen, pause, read the next sentence, unpause, listen and assess, pause, ... I am not a native speaker, but I can tell when my son doesn't pronounce the accented e's at the end of verbs, for example. I'm not sure how one would do this for oneself. Nan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 while my kids were in learning mode, I relied on audiotapes. Before they were ready to read, I didn't mind reading out loud to them. My oral English is valid, but not 100%. I figured it was really important when they were learning to read, to hear proper pronunciation. Now, I don't care much again. We're back to mommy reading, which the kids prefer anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garddwr Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Yes, this is the thing! I'm trying to understand what is happening in the brain. Mine have been reading in French almost as long as in English - by one or two years difference only. And they have read a lot in French over the years - but silently. When it comes to reading 'aloud', they don't sound native. Maybe it is just a matter of practice, but I was also trying to see if there is anything else to take into account... (and wanted to alert people to the need to do reading aloud in all languages) Perhaps it is unstressful situations - reading aloud at home with just the family - a lot, which helps make it better - before reading aloud in public. Joan Thanks for the reminder, Joan. It sounds like your children do read aloud silently in French, and if their accent in spoken French is good I imagine it is the same accent when they read silently. But--there seems to be something else that happens when reading aloud, and it needs to be practiced to be fluent. We lived in France for several years when I was young, and after we left I kept up my French by reading silently, and by speaking when I had the chance. My accent is native enough that French speakers tend to peg me as a native speaker but from a different region. Anyway, when I had children I decided I wanted to read to them in French, and I acquired a collection of French children's books to read to them. I discovered that while my spoken French was still fluent (I regularly used it with my French neighbor) my read-aloud French was awkward and stilted--it was as if my brain just didn't know how to process the language for reading aloud. I persisted, and now several years later I can read aloud fluently--but it took time and practice. Apparently there really are different brain processes and skill sets involved in speaking and reading aloud fluently in a language. --Sarah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 It would be somewhat laborious, but you could get an audio book and the corresponding text, then read each sentence aloud, unpause, listen, pause, read the next sentence, unpause, listen and assess, pause, ... I am not a native speaker, but I can tell when my son doesn't pronounce the accented e's at the end of verbs, for example. I'm not sure how one would do this for oneself. Yes, this is my first thought AND I'd add that even better would be to 'tape' yourself on each sentence, then listen to yours and compare to the audio book. I find it hard to really "hear" how I sound. (Right when I thought I said something 'sans accent americain' my children will tell me that I sound so American). How do you know if you are reading aloud well? I recorded myself and was able to pick out 1 mistake (I said une instead of un). But as far as flow and pronounciation and what-not, if you are not a native speaker how do you evaluate yourself?? Another idea would be to get a native speaker to listen to your recording, or read the text first for you if you don't have an audio book... my read-aloud French was awkward and stilted--it was as if my brain just didn't know how to process the language for reading aloud. I persisted, and now several years later I can read aloud fluently--but it took time and practice. Apparently there really are different brain processes and skill sets involved in speaking and reading aloud fluently in a language. Sarah it's really valuable to have your testimony. Humans are so varied and the more testimonies there are, the more people can match their experience to the testimony that fits their situation/experience. I take from yours - "time and practice" and don't give up. :-) Thanks all, Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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