Reasonable expectations

[choirfarm]

I just have a hard time figuring out what is reasonable and what is not for my youngest. My older two went to ps, so they were used to sitting and working. She is not. She is in 4th grade and will be 10 in a few weeks. Another problem is that she had vision problems and had to have vision therapy 1st/2nd grade. However, she is doing great now. Too well. All she wants to do is read. She easily reads Boxcar children books in about 30 minutes. She is reading 6 or more books a day. She recently discovered the Hardy Boy books. But she acts like sitting down to do 15 minutes of school is torture. I got so mad today that I took away her Hardy Boy books and she doesn't get them back until tomorrow. I MADE her work for an hour. This is what we did:

 

Rod and Staff- We learned how to diagram commands. She whined after 5 of them and begged to do the rest later. I refused. Total time: 10 minutes.

 

Math- I gave her the Horizon test ( 110) though I don't treat it like a test. It is just another worksheet. Whine.. I can't do this... Finished the first side in 8 minutes.

 

Theory- 5 minutes drawing sharps on one line and labeling the name of notes on another line

 

Daily Grams- 5 minutes for her to do the lesson

 

I read Make Way for Sam Houston for 10 minutes which went over A LOT of what we saw in the movie The Alamo last night.

 

All About Spelling- Spent 10 minutes...turns out I'm missing 17 pages of the teacher's manual ( I'm winging it. Plus, she already knows all of level 1. Level 2 and 3 are on their way.)

 

Violin- Practiced for her recital for 15 minutes

 

I was going to let her take a break and clean her room and she said she would rather just do school.

 

Finished half the crossword puzzle in Zoology 3 notebook- Spent 20 minutes doing this completely independently.

 

Cursive copywork- 5 minuts to copy 2 sentences

 

Math test- Did the other page of the test in 8 minutes

 

We worked on adding the IEW elements to her paper together for about 10 minutes.

 

Then she did decide she wanted a break. She got a long one because I had to help my older two. She then practiced her violin for another 15 minutes.

 

This is all she has left: 1/2 of another Horizon lesson. Since she is still in 3rd grade, I'm trying to catch up. I just changed to trying to do 2 lessons a day. I mean, if each worksheet only takes her 20 minutes..... ( Now long multiplication or subtraction do take her longer.) She also has x-tra math. So probably 20 more minutes of math today.

 

She will finish adding dress-ups and correcting the IEW rough draft. (She will copy it tomorrow.) Maybe 15 minutes.

 

She will then do some kind of a notebook page for Texas history, probably about the Alamo. I'm guessing this will take 15 minutes

 

It just doesn't feel like much. I'm tired of the crying/whining. Pulling her hair like she can't do it. But then it taking her 10 minutes if she wants to do something.

 

I'm keeping her Hardy Boy books until tomorrow.. GRRR

[Haiku]

Maybe you are doing too much and spending too little time on each. The sheer number of things on your list that you did/still need to do was a bit off-putting to me. Even if it's not actually a lot of work, the constant shifting to something new might feel like there's a lot to do.

 

I'm also confused because you said she was in 4th grade, then you said she was in 3rd grade. Since she's my dd's age, I'm guessing she's in 4th grade. Honestly, at that age I think kids need to spending more time on the subjects you listed. Sixteen minutes for math isn't enough. Twenty minutes for science isn't enough.

 

Perhaps you could regroup what she's doing so all the math goes together; all the language arts goes together; all the writing goes together. It's probably a personality thing, but if I were transitioning so frequently, it would drive me nuts.

 

Tara

[julikins]

Way to go, mom! She shows that it's attitude and nothing else by being able to get the work done quickly when she sets her mind to it. She needs to learn that working hard and persevering through things we don't want to do are part of life and you are teaching her valuable lessons. We don't ever as adults get to do only what we WANT to do. We have to work and, so often, just with an attitude adjustment, we can enjoy our work too. And the experience the joy of completing our working and doing it well. If you don't teach her this now, she will be a grumpy grown-up who hates life because she doesn't believe she should have to do anything she doesn't want to. Consistency and perseverance on your part are necessary and maybe even a little conversation with her explaining you expectations concerning her completing her daily work without complaining or bad attitudes. Maybe even telling her that she can't read her beloved books until she finishes her first hour of school WITH A GOOD ATTITUDE. Then she can take a break and read for a little while. Then this much more school before you do any more reading. Just an idea, but it can serve as a motivating factor for her.

[justLisa]

Switching gears is the hardest thing for us. Not just for me, for the kids. I could spend a full hour (not that we do) on math, language arts, and then read aloud and it would seem like e hardly worked. However, if I were to cram every subject in to every day and only spend 10 minutes on each, it would be torture!

 

I also have a beefier M-W because thursday we go to the library for our science books and have less book work Th and F

[choirfarm]

Maybe you are doing too much and spending too little time on each. The sheer number of things on your list that you did/still need to do was a bit off-putting to me. Even if it's not actually a lot of work, the constant shifting to something new might feel like there's a lot to do.

 

I'm also confused because you said she was in 4th grade, then you said she was in 3rd grade. Since she's my dd's age, I'm guessing she's in 4th grade. Honestly, at that age I think kids need to spending more time on the subjects you listed. Sixteen minutes for math isn't enough. Twenty minutes for science isn't enough.

 

Perhaps you could regroup what she's doing so all the math goes together; all the language arts goes together; all the writing goes together. It's probably a personality thing, but if I were transitioning so frequently, it would drive me nuts.

 

Tara

 

Well, she is the one that doesn't want to work on math for longer than that. The confusion is that she is 4th grade. BUT, I switched from Saxon 3 last spring to Horizon 3. So... we were only on lesson 40 or so when we started this school year. We are on Horizon 3 lesson 110. I have Horixon 4 and we have done a couple of lessons and those lessons are MUCH longer. Plus, I thought I should finish 3. So I decided to basically start doing 2 lessons every day. HOWEVER... they are throwing so many new concepts out there, I'm not sure that will work. But I thought shooting for 45 minutes total of working on math would be good. But she is the one that wants to break it up and thinks doing more than 15 minutes is FOREVER!!!!!!!

 

Plus, the time thing... I can't wrap my head around it. Time vs. amount covered.

[choirfarm]

Ok.. I don't get how you spend more time on the subject. I quickly read ( 2 minutes maybe) the RS information on how to diagram the command sentences. She had to diagram 10 of them... All of that took the less than 10 minutes. I should go on and cover anothe subject??? Tomorrow the worksheet for it covers commands, questions and statements, I think. The worksheet will take her 5 minutes. So what else would I add for grammar????

[choirfarm]

I have everything laid out on the table that she has to do. She picks the order. It also may be that I read quickly aloud. I read 5 small print pages of Make Way in 10 minutes today. But she can tell me exactly what happens. Sometimes we do WWE as well, but not today.

[freesia]

I had a lot of crying/ complaining from my first when he was in first grade. I completely understand your frustration. We have always homeschooled but that was the year that I told my dh I was afraid we'd have to put him in school bc I just could not deal with a new baby, 2 others and all that complaining. However, instead I used a "trick" I learned on another forum:

 

We bought a votive candle (if you check the bottom you can see how long they burn.) I told ds that he was in a bad habit of complaining about doing his work. I told him I knew that the work was not too difficult for him and that I am always there to help, so there was no need for complaints. I told him that to get out of the habit we were going to use a candle. When the candle burned all the way down he could get a prize (we used a Bionicle but it could be pizza for dinner.) We would light the candle when he started (or restarted after a break) his work. At the FIRST complaint it was blown out for the day and not relit until the next day. It took us 3 weeks to get through a 10 hour candle BUT the amount of dramatics in our house dramatically reduced.

 

I only do that sort of behavioral mod occasionally and as a one shot deal. I had thought I would continue the candle with screen time privileges earned for more candles but I didn't.

 

Anyway, just an idea that worked for one fourth grader,

Anne

[go_go_gadget]

Maybe you are doing too much and spending too little time on each. The sheer number of things on your list that you did/still need to do was a bit off-putting to me. Even if it's not actually a lot of work, the constant shifting to something new might feel like there's a lot to do.

 

I'm also confused because you said she was in 4th grade, then you said she was in 3rd grade. Since she's my dd's age, I'm guessing she's in 4th grade. Honestly, at that age I think kids need to spending more time on the subjects you listed. Sixteen minutes for math isn't enough. Twenty minutes for science isn't enough.

 

Perhaps you could regroup what she's doing so all the math goes together; all the language arts goes together; all the writing goes together. It's probably a personality thing, but if I were transitioning so frequently, it would drive me nuts.

 

Tara

 

I think that the OP's DD is in fourth grade, but is doing third grade math. Also, the OP said there would be an additional 20 minutes of math later, so a total of 36 minutes, I guess? I do agree, though, that doing so many subjects for such a short time each wouldn't suit my family very well. It's hard to develop an interest in, much less passion for, a subject that you only work on for ten minutes at a time. It would be for me, anyway. Maybe you could try block scheduling?

[J'etudie]

.

[Caribbean Queen]

We buckle down, focus, and get our lessons done quickly too. I don't think that is too long for a 4th grader to focus. Perhaps your daughter's hands get tried? I notice that my 8 year old gets tired of writing quickly. I don't assign a lot of seatwork. He does a little typing, and he does some things orally, so that helps too.

 

When the candle burned all the way down he could get a prize (we used a Bionicle but it could be pizza for dinner.) We would light the candle when he started (or restarted after a break) his work. At the FIRST complaint it was blown out for the day and not relit until the next day.

 

Cool idea.

[freesia]

 

Cool idea.

 

Thanks, like I said, I got it from a forum.:)

 

The best thing was it was visible and non-verbal. My first is very verbal and takes after my brother, the lawyer. I just blew out the candle and did not have to say a word.

[duckens]

Would it help for your daughter to see where she is in her accomplishments for the day vs. what is expected?

 

Workboxes have been good for some families.

 

In our family, I aim for 10 lessons/day for dd. I know this sounds like a lot. It could be as much as a Saxon Math 1 lesson (meeting book + lesson + 3 pages in WB + +/- flashcards) or as little as 1 page of Explode the Code.

 

I put rows of 10 squares (a little smaller than one-inch-square) on a piece of paper. The squares are numbered 1-10. Also in the same row, but unattached are a square with a P for Piano; and three squares with R20 for Read 20 Minutes.

 

As dd finishes lessons, I hand the paper to her to color another square. She always knows where she is for accomplishments, and she knows when she will be done.

 

Some other details:

--We don't always complete all 10 lessons. FTR, at dd's age (she will be 5 next week), we are not in much hurry about stuff.

--We always do the hardest/longest stuff first. Math or Phonics is first in line. ETC is at the end of the day.

--Dd has built in rewards of tv and $ in our household. If she doesn't have tv or $, she knows what she needs to do to remedy that situation. With the coloring squares, she knows when she can ask for more tv.

[Haiku]

I have everything laid out on the table that she has to do. She picks the order.

 

If this works for her, cool. But if there is a lot of complaining and crying, it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe what she wants and what she needs are different things, ya know?

 

Maybe you could just tell her what she's going to do instead of letting her choose.

 

Maybe you could set the timer for a certain amount of time (15 minutes at the absolute minimum, but at that age I'd say at least half an hour eventually) and tell her that if she works diligently for that amount of time with NO COMPLAINING (that's the key), then she can have a small break to read or do whatever she wants.

 

My kids are in 3rd and 4th. We start our day with 40 minutes of math. Then one does 30 minutes of reading and about 15 minutes of independent work while I do language arts with the other. We spend about an hour each on language arts. The kids get a 15-minute between one kid's LA and the other. Then we have lunch. We work from 9:00 until about 12:00. At 1:00 we start up again and do 20 minutes of memory work, 30 minutes of Spanish, and 1 hour of science or history. We finish up around 3:00. So my kids can work for around 1 1/2-2 hours without a break. I'm not saying you have to do it like I do, but I certainly think it's reasonable to expect your dd to work for at least half an hour, and probably longer, without needing a break.

 

I don't get how you spend more time on the subject. I quickly read ( 2 minutes maybe) the RS information on how to diagram the command sentences. She had to diagram 10 of them... All of that took the less than 10 minutes. I should go on and cover anothe subject???

 

Were it me, I would. If you are satisfied that 10 minutes of grammar is enough, then don't worry about it. We use FLL4 with my dd and it usually takes 20-25 minutes or so. If it's a short lesson, I start the next one.

 

Tara

Edited December 7, 2011 by TaraTheLiberator

[choirfarm]

My kids are in 3rd and 4th. We start our day with 40 minutes of math. Then one does 30 minutes of reading and about 15 minutes of independent work while I do language arts with the other. We spend about an hour each on language arts. The kids get a 15-minute between one kid's LA and the other. Then we have lunch. We work from 9:00 until about 12:00. At 1:00 we start up again and do 20 minutes of memory work, 30 minutes of Spanish, and 1 hour of science or history. We finish up around 3:00. So my kids can work for around 1 1/2-2 hours without a break. I'm not saying you have to do it like I do, but I certainly think it's reasonable to expect your dd to work for at least half an hour, and probably longer, without needing a break.

 

 

 

Tara

 

That is a very similar schedule to what I did with my boys. We normally worked for an hour to an hour and a half and then they had a break. Plus they didn't whine that they couldn't do it without me. She wants me to sit right beside her THE ENTIRE TIME. I may not help her and most of the time, don't but she wants me right there. i have so much to do... We've compromised so that if she is working on the table in my room then i hang up clothes, clean the bathroom, etc. If she is working in the kitchen then I unload/load the dishwasher, put dinner in the crockpot, etc. Or I bring my budget or receipts to work on.

 

Plus I need to help my older two...though mainly my middle one. Yesterday I helped my oldest with "Jury of Her Peers" and a paper. We also went over ACT writing. My middle one and I pulled out our hair over Geometry. I discussed his Scarlet Letter assignment with him.

 

Plus, yesterday we needed to get her school done by 1 as it was piano, children's choir, AWANA, dress rehearsal for choir performance, etc. We arrived home last night at 9:30. Boys have their Spanish final at cc today.

 

When the boys were her age, I would read science for 20 minutes or so and then they would do independent work on science for awhile. Then they would do Sonlight Core 5 work. Then they might take a break. They could work a lot longer, but as I said they both went to ps, so they thought they had so much freedom. She couldn't believe that I made her sit in that chair for a straight hour yesterday.

 

She hates school partially because she hates being alone. She is the most social creature. She enters the sanctuary for church and speaks to every single adult, teen and child that she knows. She was doing speech at co-op ( which is on a break until January.) in October and that is one of the few classes that she loves. She came home with the assignment and chose to do the battle of Gettysburg. Good grief. She worked on that for HOURS. We got out my 10 books or so on the Civil War and looked up information. We wrote the introduction ( which included part of The Gettysburg Address) one day and she memorized it, then a body paragraph each day and she memorized it, then the conclusion with more of The Gettysburg Address. She had the whole thing memorized the next week and gave her 5 minute talk without using her notes. She got a perfect score. There is no way the boys could do that. She practices her piano and her music without complaining. She spent over an hour yesterday practicing the songs she and i will sing in a couple of weeks at a Christmas luncheon. I've honestly considered sending her to ps, just because she would love visiting with all the people...

[choirfarm]

We buckle down, focus, and get our lessons done quickly too. I don't think that is too long for a 4th grader to focus. Perhaps your daughter's hands get tried? I notice that my 8 year old gets tired of writing quickly. I don't assign a lot of seatwork. He does a little typing, and he does some things orally, so that helps too.

 

 

 

Cool idea.

 

Oh, yes. She would do school orally for hours.. Part of it is her perfectionism. If she is doing copywork/cursive, then she thinks it looks terrible. She never makes a mistake copying and her handwriting is just fine...so much better than the boys were at her age. I even showed her their workbooks at that age and she was appalled. But she thinks she is stupid if she spells one word wrong. She wants me to spell EVERYTHING for her.