Can someone compare TOG with MFW?

[athomemom]

I love MFW, but I am looking around for high school. I am undecided whether or not we'll stay with MFW next year. I have looked around the TOG website, but it's difficult for me to tell what's what exactly and just what I have to buy vs what's optional. MFW is pretty cut and dry. :tongue_smilie:

 

How do you like TOG's writing/lit?

 

I don't really want to go a 'traditional' route for hs. My guys really love literature and learning without textbooks. (I know we use some textbooks with MFW, but they aren't our main source.)

 

Is TOG worth the money? It seems quite pricey...How do you choose which books to buy?

 

HELP!

[matilda]

I have not used MFW, but I do use TOG, so I can answer some of your questions.

I have looked around the TOG website, but it's difficult for me to tell what's what exactly and just what I have to buy vs what's optional.

Have you downloaded the sample week? That is pretty much what you get. If you are looking at it for older grades, then just look at the pages with green or blue at the bottom corner. Those are the pages directed to older grades. For the extras, you would be fine with just the year plan and nothing else to start with. I have MapAids, and I know that others use some of the other add-ons. You could search on the boards and get opinions on each of the add-ons.

 

How do you like TOG's writing/lit?

The regular year plan has suggested writing assignments, but they are minimal. I use WWE/WWS instead, but you could also get WritingAids for more help here. For the lit, you have lots of reading suggestions, and then a worksheet to go with it or sometimes discussion help.

 

Is TOG worth the money? It seems quite pricey...How do you choose which books to buy?

This will depend on how you use it. If you are just looking for a list of books to assign, then probably not. I love it because everything is right there for me. I have the books for all of my different levels of kids and worksheets to go with the books, if I want them. My favorite part is the discussion outline and teacher's notes. They really help me to know what I am teaching my kids and the discussions are by far our favorite part.

 

I don't buy very many of the books. I did get some of the ones that you use for lots of weeks, but if you have a good library system with interlibrary loan, then you would need very few books. You can go on the Tapestry store and look at the list of books for any particular year and level. That might give you an idea of what books are needed.

 

I do wonder if I could just replicate the parts of TOG that I use without the cost. I bet that I could come up with a pretty good list of books on my own, and find activities to do. Then I could read the books that I find and take notes so that I could do the discussions. But the problem is that this would take so much of my time that I don't think I would do it consistently enough. So that is why TOG is worth the money to me.

[Candid]

I love MFW, but I am looking around for high school. I am undecided whether or not we'll stay with MFW next year. I have looked around the TOG website, but it's difficult for me to tell what's what exactly and just what I have to buy vs what's optional. MFW is pretty cut and dry. :tongue_smilie:

 

One of the things I do for curriculum that are not textbook based but book based is to go look at the book lists for them. Right now the easiest way to do that with TOG is to go to bookshelf central and fill in the little chart at the top of the page: http://bookshelfcentral.com/ "Find Books for Tapestry of Grace."

 

Since you indicate you are interested in high school start by looking only at the R level books from one year plan. And since you are looking at MFW which also included lit and history then go ahead and look at all subjects.

 

I've done that with MFW and found Tapestry's choice at a much higher level. I was astounded to note that a book MFW use at high school level was used two levels below at the UG level by Tapestry (an Usborne Ancient History book).

 

My MFW friends will tell me that MFW provides additional reading whether that will make a fair comparison to Tapestry I don't know and I imagine depends on you. In Tapestry they will give you scripted talks in history and lit every week (and in some weeks philosophy, church history, geography, art and music). So for their included books you have full support. I assume that the add ons for MFW do not include full support (student questions and help for you to hold a Socratic discussion). But you will already know this for sure since you've been using MFW.

 

How do you like TOG's writing/lit?

 

I'm not a big fan of it, but I think I'm going to flail around with almost any writing plan. That said, I really like SWB's A Plan for Teaching Writing talks and I would recommend the middle and high school talks to anyone with older children. I've mostly been able to implement them at our house (I struggle with giving good feedback on writing).

 

I don't really want to go a 'traditional' route for hs. My guys really love literature and learning without textbooks. (I know we use some textbooks with MFW, but they aren't our main source.)

 

Tapestry does not use standard text books. They do you two Norton Anthologies of lit but those are just anthologies no text book teaching.

 

Their lit for R level is difficult but having read through much of it myself in my first pass through using Tapestry and now teaching it, I am absolutely enthralled by their materials.

 

 

Is TOG worth the money? It seems quite pricey...How do you choose which books to buy?

 

HELP!

 

Yes!!! As I note above the scripts for high school level really are well worth it. Being able to bring in younger children is just gravy on the side (and it gets even better because the Dialectic scripts are also great).

 

For books, the ones that come up at Book Shelf central are the ones I would go with. I would not at the high school level cut back unless you know that your students won't be able to read everything. What you can do is use your library and buy used to make your overall cost lower. The two Norton anthologies are very pricey, but you can find used copies all over the internet and if you happen to have a college nearby you might find used copies there as well.

[athomemom]

Thank you, Ladies.

 

I am mulling over your responses. My boys with be in 8th grade next year. I am considering making a change before hs. Next year we would have done MFW 1850 to Modern.

 

I am also looking at Winter Promise.

 

I love that MFW is so open and go. I am going to list what we are using this year and hope that you all can help me make a sound decision for the future. It's hard to change when something works well. MFW hs is going to be different though. (I think)

 

MFW Exploration to 1850

ABeka Science (this too needs to change)

TT

Writing Strands

Easy Grammar

ABeka lit and Any Novel Study Guide

Spelling Wisdom (this doubles as our dictation)

God and the History of Art

 

I like that MFW has everything for me: Bible, Art, Music, WS, etc. It's all laid out, easy to use and inexpensive compared to most curriculum. I also like MFW's godly focus. It's one of the main reasons I have used it.

 

How do WP and TOG compare with the above. Do they have music and art in their programs as well? I am not a planner! I love open and go...

[Julie in MN]

I've done that with MFW and found Tapestry's choice at a much higher level. I was astounded to note that a book MFW use at high school level was used two levels below at the UG level by Tapestry (an Usborne Ancient History book).

 

This is a few days old, and I'm not sure my reply is even helpful to the original poster, so I've been trying to let this go... But the word "astounded" is just running through my head today :tongue_smilie: So I'm coming back to reply, just in case this post is read by others in future centuries, and ripples of fear and shock result from that astounded part :)

 

"A much higher level" just feels very vague and arbitrary. Not only can we learn from materials at all levels, but what really matters is how something is used... how many pages constitute an assignment, how many other things are done alongside, how the information is digested, etc.

 

We used the Ancient Encyclopedia last year in 9th, and frankly it was a LOT of reading, 400 pages done in one year. The format helped bring a nice balance, with things like the Usborne book and the timeline figures (each having illustrations and shorter blurbs) alongside a textbook (Notgrass) and some of the more lengthy literature (Homer, GA Henty, the long chapters in the New Answers Book, and of course the 39 books of the Old Testament). I also thought the Usborne book helped kept a sort of running timeline of historical facts, as well as adding in extra details that textbooks and even literature can't always cover. Textbooks can run through tons of facts, but that can be really hard to avoid zoning out on sometimes. Whereas, a heavily illustrated supplement can keep them in mind more easily, I think.

 

I haven't used TOG, so I did a quick search to see how actually this book is used compared to MFW. I think it looks pretty age-appropriate in each instance, with the book as a focal point in TOG's middle school, vs. a support book in MFW 9th grade. (And after all, 9th is just one tiny step above middle school!)

 

page 12

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/sample/gotoegypt/samples/plan/GTE_UG_wk1.pdf

 

page 10

http://www.mfwbooks.com/inc/pdf/ahlsample.pdf

 

 

Hope that helps any random reader who worries about being "astounded" by a single book used in one program that is "two levels below" another program.

 

Julie

P.S. The "additional reading" concept in MFW is probably referring to book basket, which we love due to my son having his own taste in books, but it is only used in 2nd-8th grades.

[Candid]

I haven't used TOG, so I did a quick search to see how actually this book is used compared to MFW. I think it looks pretty age-appropriate in each instance, with the book as a focal point in TOG's middle school, vs. a support book in MFW 9th grade. (And after all, 9th is just one tiny step above middle school!)

 

 

Actually this isn't quite correct, in Tapestry this book is a UG book which is upper grammar. They also have a Dialectic level which most folks consider middle school. My oldest did Dialectic in fifth grade, but he was an older fifth grader and an accomplished reader. My youngest had this same book the same year as a UG student, he was in third grade. We did it together since the amount of reading was beyond him.

 

As to whether what Tapestry uses are "textbooks." I don't think so, but rather books that could be used in college level classes. Here's a link to the Rhetoric level history books at that level: http://bookshelfcentral.com/index.php?main_page=resources&year=1&units=all&LR=on&subjects=some&S1=on&type=BSC I suspect that they are more likely books written by college professors to be sold to adults who are interested in a subject, but many are university press books. As such they are likely to be much more interesting that anything used in a classroom.

 

I am confused by the MFW sample you posted, I don't see anything in the sample you posted that is anything like the Tapestry Dialectic and Rhetoric discussions. Here's a sample that shows both: http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/sample/gotoegypt/samples/weekplans/GtE-3-TeachersNotes.pdf

 

The week 11 of the MFW sample has more discussion than week 10, but week 10 has "As you read, remember that most history books, including Encyclopedia of the Ancient World, do not

have a young earth perspective. For example, today’s reading includes this: “Around 40,000 years

ago, the first inhabitants started moving into the area.†Which strikes me as pretty short. Is there more not shown in the sample?

[HiddenJewel]

The teacher helps in TOG is awesome. I loved the history but the rhetoric literature was too advanced for even my dd who is strong in language arts. It seems higher than a high school level to me. I even tried to scale it back like suggested in the material but it just wasn't a good fit. I really liked the dialectic literature for middle school though.

[Julie in MN]

Actually this isn't quite correct, in Tapestry this book is a UG book which is upper grammar. They also have a Dialectic level which most folks consider middle school. My oldest did Dialectic in fifth grade, but he was an older fifth grader and an accomplished reader. My youngest had this same book the same year as a UG student, he was in third grade. We did it together since the amount of reading was beyond him.

Okay, edit my response to say "upper grammar" instead of "middle school" -- not a big difference?

 

As to whether what Tapestry uses are "textbooks." I don't think so, but rather books that could be used in college level classes.

I don't think I speculated at all about what books Tapestry used. I was simply sharing what MFW uses for 9th grade, in addition to that "astounding" Usborne book :)

 

I am confused by the MFW sample you posted, I don't see anything in the sample you posted that is anything like the Tapestry Dialectic and Rhetoric discussions.

You're right, MFW does not include the extensive quotes from World Book Encyclopedia. We own a World Book set and use it quite a bit, but it is not in the MFW manual. Nor does a MFW manual include the extensive discussion questions with detailed answers -- MFW manuals tend to be pretty concise. And I also see MFW as not directing a family's interpretation of what they read (both historically and Biblically) as much as the TOG sample.

 

I really don't think the two programs have the same goals or methods. In comparing that sample to MFW, I guess I think MFW has adequate coverage of the topics but neither the parent nor the child will be spending as much time on Egyptian mythology. Honestly, I can't see MFW ever requiring students to chart out each individual Egyptian god/goddess with 8-10 comparison points, then chart out the Nile Hymn points, then chart out the 10 plagues, and then a "story" chart, all while still in one section of Egyptian history. However, the topics on that TOG sample were covered using MFW materials except maybe the Hymn to the Nile, which I don't remember studying -- but I'm okay with that.

 

In MFW, you read about ancient Egyptian beliefs and do some comparisons to the Bible such as the 10 plagues. MFW chooses to spend more time in Egypt on the Pharaohs than the myths, and comparing the Egyptian pharaoh chronology to the Kings in the Bible (using the Pharaoh book). Other historical details are studied (using Notgrass, Usborne, timeline, etc.), but there is more comparison to ancient Greek/Roman beliefs. In the end, my son's essay on Greek mythology made similar points to those I'm reading in the TOG sample on Egypt -- the gods/goddesses are more human than godly, and rather childlike. But he didn't have to do the same thing with each form of mythology, and each god/goddess, that we came to in ancient history. And it was up to ds to choose his thesis, supporting topics, and a few representative details, rather than following a prescribed set of answers. Then we moved on. The Smarr questions were even a little much for our taste, but fortunately not every book in AHL had that kind of coverage, only a select few, so it was probably good for ds to dig into those few.

 

So questions are answered, essays are written, and there are occasional charts and projects (there is a chart to fill out on the Kings of Israel, for instance). Then there is time scheduled in each week for a parent discussion (we do more together at our house, but not everyone is able to do that). MFW does have some discussion in the manual (e.g. for the Iliad) and parents can discuss the student's answers to questions in other materials (Notgrass quizzes, essay questions, Smarr thinking points, Bible daily questions). At my house, I also take note of just the general topics of the day and chapter titles, so I can easily ask, What did you learn about X today?

 

TOG and MFW are not the same, so asking "where is this" in either program might not apply. They spend time a little differently. But again, the use of the Usborne Encyclopedia does not mean that MFW is spending its time giving a 5th grade education to a 9th grader :confused:

 

HTH,

Julie

Edited December 7, 2011 by Julie in MN

[Another Lynn]

Thank you, Ladies.

 

I am mulling over your responses. My boys with be in 8th grade next year. I am considering making a change before hs. Next year we would have done MFW 1850 to Modern.

 

I am also looking at Winter Promise.

 

I love that MFW is so open and go. I am going to list what we are using this year and hope that you all can help me make a sound decision for the future. It's hard to change when something works well. MFW hs is going to be different though. (I think)

 

MFW Exploration to 1850

ABeka Science (this too needs to change)

TT

Writing Strands

Easy Grammar

ABeka lit and Any Novel Study Guide

Spelling Wisdom (this doubles as our dictation)

God and the History of Art

 

I like that MFW has everything for me: Bible, Art, Music, WS, etc. It's all laid out, easy to use and inexpensive compared to most curriculum. I also like MFW's godly focus. It's one of the main reasons I have used it.

 

How do WP and TOG compare with the above. Do they have music and art in their programs as well? I am not a planner! I love open and go...

 

My first two thoughts.... 1) It's a little hard to jump into TOG mid cycle because the time periods don't line up. TOG's year 3 is 1800 to 1900 and year 4 is 1900 to now. 2) While there are many wonderful things to be said about TOG, "Open and Go" is NOT one of them. I own two and a half year plans and have never been successful longer than a few weeks. That doesn't mean you won't be able to use it successfully! But you should know that TOG gives you tons to choose from every week. The fog that many speak of is how overwhelming the decision making is (or at least it was for me). I would recommend printing the three week sample and implement it.

 

Lastly, I think that because I began with Ambleside Online I still tend to think of our history studies this way: one or two major spines for the year with other books (biographies, etc) that come and go. I realize most people adapt better to change than I do, LOL, but everything else I try to use, I get frustrated if it doesn't conform to this pattern that's established in my mind.

 

Just wanted to give you more food for thought.

[Candid]

Okay, edit my response to say "upper grammar" instead of "middle school" -- not a big difference?

 

I think 3rd grade and 9th grade is a huge difference not so much in time, but in ability. I think we must be approaching this differently.

 

 

I don't think I speculated at all about what books Tapestry used. I was simply sharing what MFW uses for 9th grade, in addition to that "astounding" Usborne book :)

 

I'm sorry I guess when I read this in your previous post:

Textbooks can run through tons of facts, but that can be really hard to avoid zoning out on sometimes.

I made an assumption that since we were comparing two programs that the counter example would be to the other program. I'm sorry I misread you.

 

 

 

TOG and MFW are not the same, so asking "where is this" in either program might not apply. They spend time a little differently. But again, the use of the Usborne Encyclopedia does not mean that MFW is spending its time giving a 5th grade education to a 9th grader :confused:

 

HTH,

Julie

 

No, but I do think it is good to compare the book and required reading lists to compare programs. In the OP's original post she said her child liked to read so this is a good thing to look at.

 

Is my pull out one book an illustration of a difference between the two programs? When I look at the whole list found here: http://www.mfwbooks.com/products/M50/50/5/0/1 and the list at the botton of this page: http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/year1/

I can't help but see that in other areas Tapestry does more. For instance in literature, Tapestry and MFW both read The Iliad and The Odyssey, but Tapestry also reads a book of Ancient Egyptain poetry, another of ancient Sumerian poetry, The Aeneid, and six ancient Greek plays. This is along with another book dealing with the Bible as literature (which is one of two books they use to guide Bible studies). To me that just feels a whole lot more.

[Candid]

I'm glad Julie posted, I had missed this question of yours, let me try to address the last bit of it:

 

I like that MFW has everything for me: Bible, Art, Music, WS, etc. It's all laid out, easy to use and inexpensive compared to most curriculum. I also like MFW's godly focus. It's one of the main reasons I have used it.

 

How do WP and TOG compare with the above. Do they have music and art in their programs as well? I am not a planner! I love open and go...

 

Tapestry does include Bible in the first year with Ancient History, but in successive years, they do not include a formal Bible study. That would be something you would need to add on. I always suggest folks simply read the Bible in those years with older students. The National Survey of Youth and Religon found that the thing that correlated with ongoing church attendance in young people is whether they read the Bible themselves while they were teens, not any kind of formalized study.

 

On the other hand Tapestry is always looking at events and asking what would God's people do in this situation? Does this match what was actually done? How did those people's different world views cause a difference in response. And of course they study major religious events like the Reformation, but they also include books on Revivalism which I rarely see covered and the theology of the Civil War area folks. I can't wait until we get to those books and topics.

 

You will find art in all four year plans. Music does not really come into play until the second year plan when we have actual music left from the time periods studied.

 

They also include hands on projects for most weeks of the year so if you have actual artists in your home you'll find something to satisfy you there as well.

 

 

I love that MFW is so open and go. I am going to list what we are using this year and hope that you all can help me make a sound decision for the future. It's hard to change when something works well. MFW hs is going to be different though. (I think)

 

I formally used Sonlight which is also an open and go program. I found my transition to Tapestry was pretty smooth. I did plan over the summer of my first two years carefully choosing craft supplies to do various projects over the year. However by year three crafting had somewhat waned at our house so I did less of that over the last two years. This year I am in a very small coop and someone else does crafts.

 

The big difference is there is the mom's reading assignment each week. That usually takes less than a half hour, and I've never had it take more than an hour. Then for older students there are the Socratic discussions. I had a fairly easy time leading this with my oldest four years ago when we started. This year I'm leading a higher level one with other students. I've found that more difficult, but mainly because I don't know them as well and I've had to slowly learn how to ask questions to get them to break down some of the larger questions Tapestry sometimes asks. That's a really hard skill and it so much easier just to provide answers, but Tapestry wants you to get your children to think.

 

You will need to break down weekly assignments for younger children, but for both mine who are now at the D and R levels, I just give them the assignment and they are responsible for deciding when to do what. People often talk about wanting their children to work independently, this is a great place to further this goal, by having them learn to break down a week's worth of work and arrange it in a way that makes sense for them and their schedule.

[HiddenJewel]

Okay, edit my response to say "upper grammar" instead of "middle school" -- not a big difference?

 

 

There is actually a difference between upper elementary student who is still thinking in straight facts and a dialectic student who is starting to think more logically.

[Julie in MN]

Kim, I only hope our sidetracked conversation here can be helpful to you in some way! Oh well, conversation does sidetrack :tongue_smilie:

 

I think 3rd grade and 9th grade is a huge difference not so much in time, but in ability. I think we must be approaching this differently.

I'm not sure if we're approaching this differently, maybe so. But I do think we're communicating differently.

 

I originally said, "I think it looks pretty age-appropriate in each instance, with the book as a focal point in TOG's middle school, vs. a support book in MFW 9th grade."

 

I can change that to, "I think it looks pretty age-appropriate in each instance, with the book as a focal point in TOG's elementary school, vs. a support book in MFW 9th grade."

 

To me, my meaning comes out the same... using this "astounding" book as a whole day's assignment in 3rd or 5th or 8th... vs. using it as one piece of the picture of a culture in 9th... seems age appropriate and similar to **me**.

 

I didn't want to be critical, but honestly 400 pages of Usborne was more than my 3rd grader would have needed, enjoyed, or absorbed; MFW uses more like a 100-page Usborne at that age, and again alongside other materials so can't be judged on its own.

 

I'm sorry I guess when I read this in your previous post: I made an assumption that since we were comparing two programs that the counter example would be to the other program. I'm sorry I misread you.

No problem. MFW uses the textbook by Notgrass as one piece of the picture; I don't know what TOG uses.

 

No, but I do think it is good to compare the book and required reading lists to compare programs. In the OP's original post she said her child liked to read so this is a good thing to look at.

 

Is my pull out one book an illustration of a difference between the two programs? When I look at the whole list found here: http://www.mfwbooks.com/products/M50/50/5/0/1 and the list at the botton of this page: http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/year1/

I can't help but see that in other areas Tapestry does more. For instance in literature, Tapestry and MFW both read The Iliad and The Odyssey, but Tapestry also reads a book of Ancient Egyptain poetry, another of ancient Sumerian poetry, The Aeneid, and six ancient Greek plays. This is along with another book dealing with the Bible as literature (which is one of two books they use to guide Bible studies). To me that just feels a whole lot more.

You are right, they are different programs. I don't know enough about TOG to know whether every student reads all of that literature or whether families pick and choose. What you list is more than we would need in ancient literature, so it wouldn't be a good fit for us, but it sounds like lots of interesting info for you and a good challenge for your children. My only problem is when you imply that you are (or would be) doing 9th grade work and we are not. My local public school only has kids go through 2 or 3 books in a year, and those are often along the lines of Tuesdays with Morrie. My oldest went through that program and is now an educated, working engineer. Folks of old were sometimes educated better than folks today using just one book -- the Bible -- and MFW schedules the complete Bible in 9th-10th grades, so there is that literature, too (and no small accomplishment).

 

So anyways, yes, the literature my son read for his English credit in 9th included the list you show (Gilgamesh, Henty's Bubastes, Bulfinch, Iliad & Odyssey, and a biography of Eric Liddell, not counting sections of the Bible counted as literature credit). Three of those were studied in depth and 3 more lightly. The in-depth ones were a step up for my 9th grader and took some effort, even though he is an able student. And at our house, we added Oedipus (just the one book, not the series of 3), while paring down the Odyssey. For the rest of his 9th grade reading, so that he was reading something daily, there was room for making some of his own choices, with history-related suggestions in the manual if desired. My son is in a boys' book club and did his extra reading with them, which was not history-related and he was happy about that :)

 

There were also many other things being digested by my son in AHL, but I don't know why I'm typing all this out except to try to answer what you've asked more clearly than I seem to have so far. TOG and MFW are different, and that's okay. But MFW high school is not a 3rd grade program. I can't tell you all the differences -- MFW possibly has pared down the many choices you have in TOG, or possibly there are other differences in how time is spent, but I don't know TOG enough to be specific. I just know that, having raised 3 kids who are now 27, 24, and 16, using public schools and homeschools, and having put a son through college and attended college myself (both of us with honors), MFW 9th grade is an appropriate option, even a good, developmentally-appropriate, and faith-enhancing building block in a life's education. It does not deserve to be referred to as at an astoundingly low level just because it isn't the same as something else :001_huh:

 

Julie

[Blossom'sGirl]

Thank you Julia for your clear description of AHL. I have been seriously considering this next year for my upcoming 9th grader who will be going back to Ancient History while his younger 3 brothers will be doing the 2nd half of American History. I think TOG is just too much information for me. I have free access to World Book online to look up information as needed.

[Julie in MN]

There is actually a difference between upper elementary student who is still thinking in straight facts and a dialectic student who is starting to think more logically.

 

Yes, but neither exists in a vacuum.

[Julie in MN]

Thank you Julia for your clear description of AHL. I have been seriously considering this next year for my upcoming 9th grader who will be going back to Ancient History while his younger 3 brothers will be doing the 2nd half of American History. I think TOG is just too much information for me. I have free access to World Book online to look up information as needed.

 

Thanks, Michelle, I'm glad my meandering conversation last night (while waiting for the dialysis machine to finish its cleaning cycles) ended up making sense to someone :)