Horses....if I didn't love them so much,

[Live2Ride]

I'd sell the stinkers!

 

So we have been riding Jeaux fairly regular. Obviously part of this involves standing tied for periods of time. Jeaux is buddy sour. That's all there is to it, but mainly when tied. Put him under saddle to work in the field and he's fine. Take him out on his own and he'll call a bit, settle and then be fine. But take him out with his best bud, Goldbar, and if Goldbar walks off without him...the stomping and hissy fit starts. It's not terrible, but irritating. I've worked with him a lot over the last 10 years and he's much better than he used to be...but still.

 

Fast forward to this week.

 

He has been down right bratty about being tied when the other horses leave the barn. Gets all stompy, whinnying, swinging from side to side to look around. Knocked me over and got in swift trouble for that.

 

He's been relearning the art of standing quietly. A couple of days ago, he felt he had enough of it and decided to attempt to jump out of the stall, over the pipe bars that separate the stalls from the walkway...It was not pretty. He's not as tall or acrobatic as he thought. Front pastern has a gash, back leg is torn up from pastern to hock from thrashing around and from the gate. Gate was wrecked...ugh.

 

His wounds are mostly superficial. Amazingly enough there has been very little swelling that I've noticed and the wounds look good. I did hose, medicate and pressure wrap that leg right away so that did help. Hasn't been lame at all on it.

 

But much to his dismay the less than impressive display of his jumping skills that day have not stopped his lessons (although untied, he may have done quite well, and his leg tuck was quite nice :glare:). Today he threatened to start popping up again on the walkway side where he was tied...a nose chain came out and after tossing his head up, he decided that wasn't worth it to try again. Then we moved out to a large tree...I was working outside on fencing and needed to keep an eye on him. He made himself quite a half circle of trampled earth, pulled back one good time-did not repeat that one, and after several hours decided to calm down...stubborn boy.

 

Tomorrow will be the same...unfortunately for him...poor fella. He's got to learn. I can't take him to places acting like that. Totally unsafe. My best friend just never had the time to really work with him on it as she wasn't home enough for a long enough period of time.

 

And then there is Charmer...that boy is something else. Heaven forbid you ask him to do something and he decides he doesn't want to. That's a fight in a half. A ditch was our nemesis this week...he had to be dallied to my friends horse and 'encouraged' with a bit of force to go across. Took a couple of times and then we did it alone ourselves a few more. Funny thing is he walked back on his own the first time, but had to be pursuaded and led again back over it the second time...goofball.

Edited November 6, 2011 by CountryGirl2

[Remudamom]

Clinton Anderson methods.

 

Stick to your guns. My Khemosabi Arabian yearling decided the other day that he couldn't remember how to lead. Took FORTY FIVE STINKING MINUTES before he remembered. I wanted to shoot him by the time it was all over.

[livingnlearning]

They can drive you crazy! They're extremely complex and though I would put our horses out there to anyone there would be the caveat... this one doesn't like this, this one paws in the trailer...

 

I always try to remind myself that they spend 24/7 out there with each other and then we come to interfere...

 

Really they're a blessing in psycological research-if I can figure out what is motivating a horse I can surely figure out what is ticking with a person! Have you seen the Buck documentary?

 

A good buddy of mine calls that the "patience tree": when you're tied you're tied and we'll come get you when we're ready for you. Very good for them!

[Live2Ride]

I like Clinton Anderson...he just makes rational sense. I don't want to play games with my horse. He's not a dog. I just want to train him to be accepting, to trust me, and to rationally think. He teaches that.

 

I've owned Charmer since he was a yearling. I'm the only one who has worked with him and he is now starting to head out on trail rides...he's done great except for a few things and then the feet are planted and it's a great big, "I don't think so". He's coming along though.

 

Jeaux is seriously impatient...the 'patience tree' is a good lesson for him!

[livingnlearning]

Clinton has some good ideas but in general is not viewed as a real high quality trainer. He overfaces his horses, pushes and overwhelms them. He pushed a colt at RTTH so hard the colt attacked him!

 

Trainers like Buck, Stacey Westfall, Ray Hunt, Jon Ensign, Martin Black, and their people are much more respected by the horse community.

[Jackie in NE]

Clinton Anderson methods.

 

Stick to your guns. My Khemosabi Arabian yearling decided the other day that he couldn't remember how to lead. Took FORTY FIVE STINKING MINUTES before he remembered. I wanted to shoot him by the time it was all over.

 

You know what they say.... "Never carry a pistol while training a horse or a dog!"

I have stuck to that rule and it has saved many animal lives! :lol:

[Jackie in NE]

I'd sell the stinkers!

 

So we have been riding Jeaux fairly regular. Obviously part of this involves standing tied for periods of time. Jeaux is buddy sour. That's all there is to it, but mainly when tied. Put him under saddle to work in the field and he's fine. Take him out on his own and he'll call a bit, settle and then be fine. But take him out with his best bud, Goldbar, and if Goldbar walks off without him...the stomping and hissy fit starts. It's not terrible, but irritating. I've worked with him a lot over the last 10 years and he's much better than he used to be...but still.

 

Fast forward to this week.

 

He has been down right bratty about being tied when the other horses leave the barn. Gets all stompy, whinnying, swinging from side to side to look around. Knocked me over and got in swift trouble for that.

 

He's been relearning the art of standing quietly. A couple of days ago, he felt he had enough of it and decided to attempt to jump out of the stall, over the pipe bars that separate the stalls from the walkway...It was not pretty. He's as tall or acrobatic as he thought. Front pastern has a gash, back leg is torn up from pastern to hock from thrashing around and from the gate. Gate was wrecked...ugh.

 

His wounds are mostly superficial. Amazingly enough there has been very little swelling that I've noticed and the wounds look good. I did hose, medicate and pressure wrap that leg right away so that did help. Hasn't been lame at all on it.

 

But much to his dismay the less than impressive display of his jumping skills that day have not stopped his lessons (although untied, he may have done quite well, and his leg tuck was quite nice :glare:). Today he threatened to start popping up again on the walkway side where he was tied...a nose chain came out and after tossing his head up, he decided that wasn't worth it to try again. Then we moved out to a large tree...I was working outside on fencing and needed to keep an eye on him. He made himself quite a half circle of trampled earth, pulled back one good time-did not repeat that one, and after several hours decided to calm down...stubborn boy.

 

Tomorrow will be the same...unfortunately for him...poor fella. He's got to learn. I can't take him to places acting like that. Totally unsafe. My best friend just never had the time to really work with him on it as she wasn't home enough for a long enough period of time.

 

And then there is Charmer...that boy is something else. Heaven forbid you ask him to do something and he decides he doesn't want to. That's a fight in a half. A ditch was our nemesis this week...he had to be dallied to my friends horse and 'encouraged' with a bit of force to go across. Took a couple of times and then we did it alone ourselves a few more. Funny thing is he walked back on his own the first time, but had to be pursuaded and led again back over it the second time...goofball.

 

Agreeing with Remuda Mom. Stick to your guns. He'll either get better or get sold!

[Remudamom]

Clinton has some good ideas but in general is not viewed as a real high quality trainer. He overfaces his horses, pushes and overwhelms them. He pushed a colt at RTTH so hard the colt attacked him!

 

Trainers like Buck, Stacey Westfall, Ray Hunt, Jon Ensign, Martin Black, and their people are much more respected by the horse community.

 

Them thar's fighting words. Stacey Westfall is high on my list, but I've used CA methods for years and on more horses than I care to count. Mine and others that people have had me train for them. Started horses, retrained horses, raised horses......Qhs, Arabs, Welsh, crosses.

 

If his methods are followed as shown on his training tapes the results are fantastic.

 

As for "the horse community"? Give me a break. Who exactly are you referring to? Dressage? H/J?? One of our area's biggest and most sucessful dressage divas uses CA and has the ribbons and titles to prove they work. She also has a good relationship with her horse.

 

I also know a few cowboys and cowgirls that have learned not to cowboy their horses because of CA.

 

So maybe the horse community you know is on a high horse over CA, but the one I'm familiar with is smart enough to take what works from each program.

[livingnlearning]

Sorry, but the horsepeople at the high levels of horsemanship do not give CA a lot of credence. He's a couple steps behind Parelli. You sound like you've bought the koolaid but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

 

He's too hard on horses, has a heavy hand, no sensitivity or feel.

 

Give me a break if your training knowledge and skills don't go beyond CA. You've stopped way short of higher horsemanship if you haven't gone past watching his tapes. You're discrediting yourself if you are only drawing from CA and discounting any other trainers!

 

By horse community I'm talking about Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman, Martin Black, Lendon Gray, as I said. Horsemanship, not horse training. There's a difference. Across discipline lines. Regardless of ribbons.

[Remudamom]

Yes, you're probably right. I know nothing about horses, training, riding, working, jumping, halter classes, teaching, cutting, reining, driving, starting under saddle, producing horse after horse that gets glowing reports.

 

Gee, I've never heard of Ray Hunt, Buck, Martin Black, Lendon Gray. Who are those fellas?? Scratching head in confusion.

 

I guess I'll just go out and whip my horses around a bit. Where er my spurs?? Belch.

 

eta- I'm not discrediting myself. My horses speak for themselves.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Remudamom

[Live2Ride]

I don't care for Parelli... But that doesnt mean he doesn't have some stuff to offer. we need y to be constantly reading and learning many different things. All horses are not created equal and some things may not work for some. The more tools we have under our belt the better prepared we are to make our horses better citizens and partners.

Edited November 6, 2011 by CountryGirl2

[Live2Ride]

I had a bit more to say earlier, but messaging on a phone is not always that easy, lol,

 

I've seen some things that trainers have done that made me scratch my head, but none are perfect.

 

You take what you can use and toss the rest...no worries.

 

Today I took Jeaux out and we had a long lesson on stopping his feet when I asked and being patient. He found it was much better to stop his feet than try to back up to avoid actually having to stand still...I surely wasn't understanding his logic there, but he finally understood mine, lol.

 

Then horror of all horrors to him, he was allowed only to walk home. :tongue_smilie: Not that I've ever let him do anything but walk home, but he didn't remember that. You think he'd have been too tired to do anything more, but I swear that boy is the energizer pony! :glare:

[Happy]

Never heard of Ray Hunt????

 

I'm truly sorry. He is the best of the best of the best of the horse 'whisperers.' I've trained with him and learned more about my horse and myself than I thought possible. And the things I could apply to my kids, oh my. Priceless.

 

Ray Hunt's best quote is this 'Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.'

 

Then there's 'Observe, remember, compare' and 'feel, timing, and balance.'

 

If you can just do one thing with your horses (kids, business, MIL) it's make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.

 

Those of you who've never ridden with Ray, see if you can find a workshop he is giving. The man isn't getting any younger, and he's the best. (Did I mention that already?)

[Live2Ride]

Never heard of Ray Hunt????

 

I'm truly sorry. He is the best of the best of the best of the horse 'whisperers.' I've trained with him and learned more about my horse and myself than I thought possible. And the things I could apply to my kids, oh my. Priceless.

 

Ray Hunt's best quote is this 'Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.'

 

Then there's 'Observe, remember, compare' and 'feel, timing, and balance.'

 

If you can just do one thing with your horses (kids, business, MIL) it's make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.

 

Those of you who've never ridden with Ray, see if you can find a workshop he is giving. The man isn't getting any younger, and he's the best. (Did I mention that already?)

 

I believe Remudamom was being sarcastic. :tongue_smilie:

 

I've read things about them too. I've never lived in a place to see any of them work.

[Guest submarines]

Ray Hunt died on March 12 2009.

[Remudamom]

I believe Remudamom was being sarcastic. :tongue_smilie:

 

I've read things about them too. I've never lived in a place to see any of them work.

 

I am never sarcastic. Ever. EVER. :lol:

 

Hey, us hicky cattleman people only know how to spur our horses and throw em. Scuse me while I scratch.

 

CA uses Hunt's quote all the time. All. the. time. Guess he's smart enough to learn from others too. How about that, CA quoting Hunt.

 

And yeah, Hunt's been gone for a while.

 

I still stand by and use CA's methods, especially for groundwork and starting colts. I've sold horses to the hunter/jumper group, in fact I'm pleased to say that a nationally known jumper owns one of my geldings ( and another h/j lady who says the little 100% CA trained mare she got from me is the best horse she's ever owned) and some of my former babies are currently being trained in dressage.

 

Yes there are higher levels. But you don't get there without a good solid foundation first. My horses are soft and responsive, supple. They can move off leg pressure and stop when I shift my weight. They can whoa on command and back up either from voice or a silent signal. Side pass. Stand quietly. Load nicely. Head a steer. Open gates. Whatever.

 

And my horses seem to like me. Except that one big mare...........oh wait. We sent her off to be trained.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Remudamom

[Remudamom]

Yes, I'm feeling snarky. I guess it's time to change back to my horse avatars. I think I'll go with my Arabians this time around. RTR anyway.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Remudamom

[Live2Ride]

I knew Hunt was gone...I was just speaking in general terms. It never failed when I'd be moving from an area, one of them would be holding a clinic somewhere nearby. I know they do training things down at LSU, but now I'm too busy to take on anything else...

 

My husband says I can be quite sarcastic and snarky...must be from all the years of dealing with his sarcasm, :glare: :lol:

 

Remudamom, I might have to send ol' Charmer out to you (the one below)! You can put some ranch work on him. He'd probably kiss the ground I walk on when he returned, the brat. He's not used nearly enough here to make him appreciate the down time he does have. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ooooh and I love the Arab pics. Jeaux is a saddlebred/arabian/QH cross. He's in rare form with the weather change and me requiring him to actually work now. He hasn't been ridden good in over a year. My BFF was too busy and then too sick. She left them to me after she passed and now it's back to business. Plus I have to get him tuned back up for my daughter. He can be very bratty when something isn't going his way. He's finding out that it's not a good idea to act like that.

Edited November 6, 2011 by CountryGirl2

[Remudamom]

Yes, it's amazing what a little hard ranch work can do for their attitudes. My mare KB was a city girl when I got her although she bred out the nose for cattle work. She was terrified of cattle. It was a hoot. We turned her out with them for about a week and she figured out they were more afraid of her. But for a while there I had to hold on tight, and goodness forbid one would get behind her and sniff.

[livingnlearning]

Yes, you're probably right. I know nothing about horses, training, riding, working, jumping, halter classes, teaching, cutting, reining, driving, starting under saddle, producing horse after horse that gets glowing reports.

 

Gee, I've never heard of Ray Hunt, Buck, Martin Black, Lendon Gray. Who are those fellas?? Scratching head in confusion.

 

I guess I'll just go out and whip my horses around a bit. Where er my spurs?? Belch.

 

eta- I'm not discrediting myself. My horses speak for themselves.

 

Maybe you should work on writing for clarity. You asked, I answered, you got snarky.

 

I'm sorry to discredit your hero, I didn't discredit you at all. You did that, and now continue to do that in my opinion because you flew way off the handle instead of calmly discuss what is and isn't valid about Clinton Anderson's training philosophy. You asked for names and I gave you names. I rode in one of Ray's clinics years ago, I happen to personally know people that are on that list and I am telling you that CA is not given much credit in their world. You asked, I told you.

 

You're just being crabby b/c I disagree with you and you're being really obtuse about it. I don't know what your deal is with your cowboy references, if you think you're some sort of cowgirl and I'm not in the ranch world you're sadly mistaken. You don't know much about me nor did you ask with any respect or open mind.

 

Overreact much?

[Guest submarines]

I knew Hunt was gone...I was just speaking in general terms.

 

 

Someone upthread mentioned to catch a workshop with him while he's still alive. :)

[Live2Ride]

Someone upthread mentioned to catch a workshop with him while he's still alive. :)

 

Musta missed it :D

 

We can be fairly passionate people when it comes to who we like when needing help. I think many of them have a lot of things to offer. I think if we can go about it in a calm and rational manner, then our horses will trust us. I don't want my horse afraid of me, but I definitely want him to respect me and other humans.

 

Now I'm off to repot a plant, work on a little fencing, move some sheep to another pen and work a couple of horses...then if I have time I might do some more granny squares for my son's Christmas blanket..oh, and somewhere I've got to grade the kids papers from last week...ugh :tongue_smilie:

[Remudamom]

Maybe you should work on writing for clarity. You asked, I answered, you got snarky.

 

I'm sorry to discredit your hero, I didn't discredit you at all. You did that, and now continue to do that in my opinion because you flew way off the handle instead of calmly discuss what is and isn't valid about Clinton Anderson's training philosophy. You asked for names and I gave you names. I rode in one of Ray's clinics years ago, I happen to personally know people that are on that list and I am telling you that CA is not given much credit in their world. You asked, I told you.

 

You're just being crabby b/c I disagree with you and you're being really obtuse about it. I don't know what your deal is with your cowboy references, if you think you're some sort of cowgirl and I'm not in the ranch world you're sadly mistaken. You don't know much about me nor did you ask with any respect or open mind.

 

 

Overreact much?

 

CA is one of the trainers I like. I went into my reasons in another post. Now if you don't like him that's your deal. You don't have to jump in and crap about him, no one asked you your opinion on him. Any questions I might have asked you, and I don't think I did, were purely rhetorical.

 

As for the cowgirl stuff I wouldn't call myself a cowgirl or my dh/sons cowboys. How embarrasing. Yes we are ranchers, and there is a good chance that I've been a rancher's wife since before most of the ladies on this board were even born. Simply pointing out I'm not a dressage diva.

 

What I'm also not is pompous enough to jump on someone else's choice of training methods. Not even the point of the post. Surely you could recommend a different trainer or method without bashing someone else's comments? Apparently not.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Remudamom

[Live2Ride]

Clinton has some good ideas but in general is not viewed as a real high quality trainer. He overfaces his horses, pushes and overwhelms them. He pushed a colt at RTTH so hard the colt attacked him!

 

Trainers like Buck, Stacey Westfall, Ray Hunt, Jon Ensign, Martin Black, and their people are much more respected by the horse community.

 

I've seen colts attack even when they aren't pushed...they are colts. They are mouthy, moody, and green to handling. Just because a colt attacks him does not make him a bad trainer. A trainer that's never had a horse come at him probably hasn't been training long. Any of them could tell you that there are horses that do not respect boundries and will lash out at times.

 

I have a horse here that knocked me down the other day...he is normally a very sweet boy, but he was not happy about something and swung his body around while standing tied and caught me off guard while I was grabbing something. It doesn't mean I did something wrong at that time towards him, but my response to what he did is what mattered. Teaching him not to do that again.

 

People can pick apart any situation, but we're all human and not everything works the way we want all the time.

 

I find all those competitions to getting a horse ridden in a day or a few days is rediculous. I think rushing an unbroke horse to ride in a very short amount of time is not the way to go about it, but that's just me....

[ma23peas]

I have read and followed many natural horsemen/women...I do not adopt one particular method but listen to my good sense in finding help for my horses...I personally do not like Clinton Anderson, he is arrogant and hot headed...I saw him at the Road to the Horse (have tix for this next year's event as well) and he refused to give his horse a break...they were required to give 15 minutes per hour of work session....he never gave a break and the two other clinicians were much more reasonable and got a much better response for giving the horse their time. I have also had a friend attend one of his clinics and he became so angry at the horse that he hooked it to a tractor and dragged it...with me nothing about his style is natural..just dominance. He also cursed and was very unprofessional towards the other two horsemen...not my kind of leader.

 

Now, as far as your horse...I have five tips...but they do take time, this is not a 15 minute a day fix...I have done the following with my very buddy sour horse that did the same thing as yours 2 years ago, today his propensity for being sour being alone has gone from a 10 to about a 2. It is not completely gone, but he is very manageable and can not imagine him trying to jump through the stall today...it is all about building his confidence and giving him tools to cope and know you're the leader...

1. Control your responses...when they go to that emotional response...sometimes we mirror them..it's at this time that your emotions need to be managed and reasonable....they need a leader who is calm not reactive.

2. When I would be cleaning out the stalls, I would put him in his stall, give him some body massages/clean his feet, anything to be 'doing' something for him..leaving my other two out to roam...I kept his focus on me not them...then I would leave him in the stall while I cleaned the others and give good feedback when he stayed calm...if he went nuts, I would go back in the stall with him and get his head relaxed/eyes soft before letting him out....at first, it may take me an hour to get him to think rather than react...take the time it takes...

3. When I worked groundwork with him I would keep my other two horses in the same pasture at all times, as long as he could see them, he was fine, if they went around the barn, he went nuts...I would simply lead him to an area (not to them) but where I knew he would be able to see them and continued my work.

4. After about 2-3 weeks, I started moving the other two to a pasture next to him (he could still see them but could not get to them)...did the same thing...

5. Eventually, I worked up to doing a full hour with him without them in his sight...really, this took a year for him to be the 'new' horse he is now...I never leave my horses tied anywhere for any length of time, I will put them in the stall...removing their ability to move builds instant anxiety in these types of horses...in the stall they can still move their feet...

 

Horses need a job, for him it was the series of games and activities we did for that hour...he looked forward to it...it has built his confidence and this horse that was a badly abused walking horse that took a very experienced and natural farrier 4 hours to trim just the front two feet, is a completely new horse....it has been almost 3 years and it's been an amazing journey..

 

Take the time it takes, keep your expectations low but have a goal each time you go to work with him...and keep your reactions in check...it helps that I just watched "Buck" on Netflix..his style mirrors much of my communication...I was so motivated I went out to work with our latest rescue..had to reset my goal...ha! But, made some if little progress! :)

 

Good luck! They are amazing partners!

[Remudamom]

I have read and followed many natural horsemen/women...I do not adopt one particular method but listen to my good sense in finding help for my horses...I personally do not like Clinton Anderson, he is arrogant and hot headed...I saw him at the Road to the Horse (have tix for this next year's event as well) and he refused to give his horse a break...they were required to give 15 minutes per hour of work session....he never gave a break and the two other clinicians were much more reasonable and got a much better response for giving the horse their time. I have also had a friend attend one of his clinics and he became so angry at the horse that he hooked it to a tractor and dragged it...with me nothing about his style is natural..just dominance. He also cursed and was very unprofessional towards the other two horsemen...not my kind of leader.

 

 

I've heard this too. This is the part of his technique I choose to pass over. His fame has gone to his head, but I still like his stuff. Apparently he doesn't always practice what he preaches.

 

Just because he has a temper doesn't mean he's all wrong.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Remudamom

[livingnlearning]

:confused::confused: