Embarrassed, but will someone look at our first outline of a chapter in history and

[mcmom4]

answer something for me? We outlined a chapter in history and I wonder if I am supposed to have a paragraph for every alphabetical letter? I am thinking that the whole paper is on Roman Numeral I. and should be the title? Then each paragraph would be the alphabetical letters with the numbers being the supporting ideas. Then my kids should add some details for the numbers/supporting ideas. Am I seeing this correctly? Thanks for your help!

 

I. The First Americans

A. The Differences in American Indians

1. Indian Homes

 

2. Appearance

 

3. Transportation

 

B. Indian Games

 

C. The Indian’s Way of Life Changes

 

D. Missionaries to the Indians

 

1. John Eliot

 

2. David Brainerd

 

3. Roger Williams

 

4. John Wesley

 

E. People Worth Knowing More About

 

1. Sequoyah

 

2. Jim Thorpe

 

F. Something Worth Finding Out

[tinkgumby]

I'm sure someone knows the official answer to this, but my instinct would be to start with numbers first:

 

1.

2.

3.

 

and then indent with lowercase alphabet:

 

1.

a.

b.

 

and Roman numerals after that, with another indent:

 

1.

a.

b.

I.

II.

III.

 

etc.

 

(Darn it, my indents don't work!)

[Colleen in NS]

The Roman numerals are to state the main topic of a paragraph. If you have 6 paragraphs, you will ideally have 6 Roman numerals. Under each Roman numeral come capital letters - sub-ideas that support the paragraph's main idea. Under each capital letter come minor details, if available (labelled 1., 2., etc.), that support each sub-idea. Here is how I'd do what you have:

 

The First Americans

 

I. The Differences in American Indians

A. Indian Homes

1. detail of homes

2. detail of homes

B. Appearance

1. detail

C. Transportation

1. detail

 

II. Indian Games

 

III. The Indian’s Way of Life Changes

 

IV. Missionaries to the Indians

A. John Eliot

B. David Brainerd

C. Roger Williams

D. John Wesley

 

V. People Worth Knowing More About

A. Sequoyah

B. Jim Thorpe

 

VI. Something Worth Finding Out

 

EDIT: oh yeah, those indents don't work - argghhhhh! Anyway, indent the capital letters under the Roman numerals, then indent the numbers for minor details (1., 2., etc.) under the capital letters.

[Chris in VA]

One minor point to add to Colleen's outline--if you only have one point under a heading, it goes beside the heading. You never have just one detail alone--think of the parts that go under things as having at least two parts, because you are splitting up the above heading.

Clear as mud.

[Paula in MS]

Chris is right. I was always taught that you can't have a 1 without a 2. You can't have an A without a B. (Although sometimes it seems more organized to me to do it the other way.)

 

Paula

[Rhondabee]

But, this is a "rule" that both WTM and R&S-7 can be broken - especially when outlining someone else's materials.

[Colleen in NS]

But, this is a "rule" that both WTM and R&S-7 can be broken - especially when outlining someone else's materials.

 

I agree. That's why I set up the outline the way I did. Even if there is only one supporting detail (no matter what level of the outline), I think it should be listed separately on a sublevel, so that you can **see** that it is a supporting detail. It helps to organize the thoughts of the paragraph in the mind.

 

I had learned the "rule" in school, too, but then the explanation in WTM about this made much more sense to me. I think the outline should serve the reader who is trying to analyze the writing, not the reader serve the outline form - at least when outlining someone else's material.

[mcmom4]

for all your suggestions. Colleen, your outline makes more sense. I was thinking that there should have been another Roman numeral if I had one.

So I was originally thinking that I would have them write one long "thing" when we finished reading the chapter, with them taking notes as they read. But now I'm thinking that perhaps they should write one paragraph as we finish up one Roman numeral, according to Colleen's outline?

This way they will be narrating their history and practicing their writing? Does this sound good or do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks so much!

[Rhondabee]

May I ask how old your dc are?

 

Really, I think creating a 2-level (and 3-level as Colleen posted) is too much for just starting out - unless your kids are in 7th or 8th grade. Or if you are writing it with/for them as you guide their narration discussion, and then they are using your outline to help them write their summary report.

 

There are so many different ways to do it, and I'm sure whatever you do will be fine! Your outline looks like your chosen spine covers much more than Kingfisher (which we use) - but I would just be careful not to overload them with writing.

 

I do think it would help not to write "one long thing" at the end of a chapter that contains as much info as your outline suggests. So, I guess I would maybe do the outline together, but then choose *one* part of the outline to write about (especially if they would have time to do extra reading to fill in extra details - such as on one of the missionaries).

 

Hope that makes sense.

Rhonda

 

PS -

fwiw, my 5th grader will be writing one sentence per paragraph from KingfisherIHW next year then writing two additional paragraphs about a topic of his choosing from additional reading. He will outline every Kingfisher article because one sentence per paragraph is only about 3 or 4 sentences per outline. All told for the week, that's only about a page to maybe a page and a half each week.

 

My 8th grader will be doing a 3-level outline on *one* Kingfisher article, and just reading any other(s) that are scheduled that week. Then, he will write between 2 to 4 pages of summaries/reports on his additional reading. That will probably average about 4 pages a week? But, he is writing very fluently now; I wouldn't expect that if we were just starting out.

 

Best wishes!

[mcmom4]

I have a 11 ds who writes ALL the time. He has notebooks and notebooks filled with his creative stories...usually pirate battles, etc. And I have a 12dd. Neither have done a whole lot of paragraph writing.

 

We are studying history chronologically, however, during the summer I wanted to do some "light" American History. I happened to have an A Beka 4th grade history text which I have been supplementing with videos, etc. Rather than use a writing program (just because I am pretty sure I wouldn't use it during the summer), I wanted to just try to focus on outlining and narrating (writing) from other's writing.

 

So right now I am simply trying to get pen to paper along with some instruction of writing a main topic sentence and then include supporting sentences.

 

What I did today was work with them on outlining the chapter (which I am now going to switch around some per Colleen). I typed and printed their outline out, leaving plenty of space. I thought that as we read through the chapter, I could help them take notes of what they read, going along with the outline, and then finish up by writing paragraph(s) per the outline. I wasn't going to be over picky this first time, as far as sentence structure or making it more interesting. I just wanted to get them started writing.

 

I feel so behind in this area....along with others due to me having to work a job this past school year. I have since quit and am stressing! :willy_nilly:

I appreciate your thoughts (and anyone else's!!).

Please keep them coming! :bigear:

[Colleen in NS]

for all your suggestions. Colleen, your outline makes more sense. I was thinking that there should have been another Roman numeral if I had one.

So I was originally thinking that I would have them write one long "thing" when we finished reading the chapter, with them taking notes as they read. But now I'm thinking that perhaps they should write one paragraph as we finish up one Roman numeral, according to Colleen's outline?

This way they will be narrating their history and practicing their writing? Does this sound good or do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks so much!

 

The idea of rewriting from the outline so that they write about their history and practice writing skills is good. I'd just echo Rhondabee's post - how you go about it depends on their ages and writing experience so far.

 

Maybe something like, have them outline (to whatever depth of outline level they are ready for) their history chapter once a week. Pull out the outline on another day that week, and have them rewrite from it (again, using part of the outline, or the whole thing, whatever they are ready for as Rhonda said). This is my basic plan for the next few years.

 

hth!

[Colleen in NS]

I feel so behind in this area....along with others due to me having to work a job this past school year. I have since quit and am stressing! :willy_nilly:

I appreciate your thoughts (and anyone else's!!).

Please keep them coming! :bigear:

 

Oh, it sounds like you are doing just fine with them! :)

[Rhondabee]

OK - I think I understand better.

 

So you used the headings in the book to create your outline topics *before* you read; and, then, you'll really be taking notes/outlining in *one* step while you read? (Before, I was thinking you were reading & outlining, then re-reading & taking notes - sorry!)

 

That sounds like *great* practice for learning to use textbooks efficiently. SOTW-4 AG also has outline helps included. They usually list the Main Topics, then give blank lines for the details. Sometimes the first few words are included, sometimes not. Later stories give the complete outline, and have students write from that. So, what you're doing sounds very similar.

 

When you're giving them the blanks to fill in, that makes the outline much easier, so please don't worry about my saying the 2 or 3-level outline would be too hard. As Colleen said, you're doing great!

 

=)

Rhonda

[mcmom4]

thoughts, suggestions and encouragement! hopefully this will work for now.

Colleen, you mentioned that this was what you are planning on focusing on for a couple years. You dc are younger than mine, but I had thought of the same thing....focusing on this for a while...depending on how quickly they catch on.

I was curious what your plan after that is going to be? I had considered to add Writing Strands either in the fall or at least by January...again just depending on them.

I am interested also if you or Rhonda have any suggestions on where to go from here?

Again, I appreciate you taking time to comment.

[Colleen in NS]

thoughts, suggestions and encouragement! hopefully this will work for now.

Colleen, you mentioned that this was what you are planning on focusing on for a couple years. You dc are younger than mine, but I had thought of the same thing....focusing on this for a while...depending on how quickly they catch on.

I was curious what your plan after that is going to be? I had considered to add Writing Strands either in the fall or at least by January...again just depending on them.

I am interested also if you or Rhonda have any suggestions on where to go from here?

Again, I appreciate you taking time to comment.

 

Yes, my kids are younger than yours and I hesitated to even reply - hope that was OK! :) It's just that I've been thinking this all through for myself the last few months, in preparing for next year.

 

I read the WTM and listened to SWB's Writing Without Fear CD, so that is where my plan comes from. Basically, in 5th grade I plan to teach ds to do one level outlining (just the main idea of each paragraph - the Roman numeral level). In 6th, 2 level outlines (supporting details of the main idea - the capital letters), in 7th, 3 level outlines (adding the numbers further supporting details to the capital letters). This is all very general, it will depend how quickly or slowly he catches on, but I'm in no rush to teach 3 level outlining in 5th grade. We'll keep up outlining all the way through 8th grade so he can get plenty of practice in taking someone's writing apart to examine how it works, and to extract the details of history or science. Who knows, maybe he'll be ready for 3 level in 6th, or won't be ready for it until 8th grade. But my overall goal is 3 level outlining by 8th grade sometime, and to be rewriting from 3 level outlines by the end of 8th grade.

 

Somewhere in there, whenever I think ds might be ready to try, we will try rewriting from an outline. I might start from a one level outline, two level, three level - one paragraph, more than one paragraph......I don't know yet. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. But that is the general idea, sometime over the next four years or so. :)

 

EDIT: Oh, and we'll use outlining in science and history. For other writing instruction, we use Rod and Staff English.

 

hth

[mcmom4]

Colleen. That is exactly how I came up with my plan....reading SWB conference notes, part of the chapter on Why Writing Fails on PHP website and listening to her cd. I finally decided to let go of trying to find the right curriculum and just focus on one or two things. Since my kiddos are a little older, I thought they may be capable of doing more even though they have had minimal writing.

So my plan is going to be to do lots of outlining using our history text and then perhaps attempt to rewrite a paragraph here and there according to that outline. I have CW sitting on my shelf and thought I would pull it down to use to rewrite some of the stories in there without doing ALL the things they work on.

I guess I just need to calm down as far as being behind the schedule SWB lays out and just get moving with what I can right now, moving forward as they progress.

Thanks again!

[Rhondabee]

Dittos to Colleen!

 

My kids are older (now in 5th and 8th), but my older ds was in 5th when we pulled him out of public school. There were MANY gaps that needed to be filled in, so that first year (year and a half) were really stressful. I know there are other ways of homeschooling out there, but WTM was just so complete. I just had to constantly be aware of where we were, and where we were headed, and *try* to get there in a reasonable amount of time, without being too concerned if it was taking longer than I hoped.

 

If you plan to do cross-curricular writing, then everything I would say is in WTM. It doesn't really matter if you choose R&S or ABeka w/Writing STrands (or Wordsmith) - or whatever. It is more a mind-set of always looking for how to apply the writing (and grammar) to your other subjects than any particular program.

 

Although, if your 12yo will be doing 7th grade work next year, and doesn't have much grammar and writing under his belt, I would probably choose Abeka 7th and a separate writing program. Their 7th grade book is the foundation for their high school program, so it's a good starting point. (Also, WriteStart is very popular here on the boards, and gives a lot of hand-holding for mom - especially in evaluating writing.)

 

What really matters in writing is focusing on *one* thing at a time to improve. Praise, praise, praise and then work on that *one* thing. I let my writing program dictate what to teach and when to teach it. Magic Wand had a great post about this:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29101

 

Also, here is a review of Wordsmith from SWB that you might find interesting:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/wordsmith.html

 

Hope some of that helps! (Sorry, I am mostly a parrot of WTM, so...)

Rhonda

[Colleen in NS]

(Sorry, I am mostly a parrot of WTM, so...)

Rhonda

 

Rhonda, you are just killin' me with laughter up here in the north!!! I'm pretty parrot-y, too! I so wish I could meet you.