Copywork for dysgraphia?

[Love_to_Read]

Am I crazy for considering copywork? If you have a student with dyslexia/dysgraphia, have you found copywork to still be beneficial? Or is it one of those things that you reduce/eliminate? I plan on modifying it to work with shorter passages than normally used at her grade level, but do you think it will actually remediate anything, or just be a chore?

 

Speaking of modification...

 

 

• Would you have it done by hand, or typed?
  
• Would you stick with really good literature, or the best phonics readers you could find in order to make sure the spelling patterns are familiar?
  
• How long do you think it would take to get used to?
  

 

Dd is a rising 5th grader, and relatively new to homeschooling.

[RamonaQ]

Eliminate. I don't see what the point is for a dyslexic student. Dictation, otoh, is helpful especially when working on spelling patterns.

[NCW]

Personal opinion, copywork is especially important for kids with dysgraphia. In fact, I used it more than any other kind of writing - since writing is weak, copywork is a supportive method to help learn/master it. We did YEARS of oral composition, I wrote it down, and dc copied it. I still use it with our 8th grader, although less and less. FWIW, our dd who was once labeled "dysgraphic" is now doing fine in high school copying notes and doing tests - she does complete all her writing assignments by keyboarding, but that is sometimes part of the assignment.

[Dobela]

Personal opinion, copywork is especially important for kids with dysgraphia. In fact, I used it more than any other kind of writing - since writing is weak, copywork is a supportive method to help learn/master it. We did YEARS of oral composition, I wrote it down, and dc copied it. I still use it with our 8th grader, although less and less. FWIW, our dd who was once labeled "dysgraphic" is now doing fine in high school copying notes and doing tests - she does complete all her writing assignments by keyboarding, but that is sometimes part of the assignment.

I agree to a point. It would depend on how severe the dysgrahia is. And, even if I required copywor, I would have already begun a typing program.

[Love_to_Read]

So, what do you use for writing curriculum?

 

I'm curious about copywork because I like the idea of Writing With Ease...and I can't quite decide whether it would be good for her, or a nightmare. So, I'm curious what others think...

 

As for severity and type, dd's dysgraphia shows up in spontaneous work. Copying is accurate, though it is tiring. Handwriting is quite legible. Still working on retraining some awkward letter strokes for comfort, but legible. Typing has begun.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Love_to_Read

[momtotkbb]

For oldest we didn't require it - he did a zaner-blosser handwriting in school and I wrote everything out for him until he could type.

 

DD isn't dysgraphic but LD in written expression - copywork and narration have been very helpful for her. In the beginning I tried to follow WTM suggestions and copywork/narration was from her literature. Then we found Queen Homeschool supplies when she was in middle school and we now use their LA program which has copywork/narration built in.

 

Middle ds is the most severe w/ dyslexia/dysgraphia and we are sold on Queen's LA for him. He also types - but his dysgraphia isn't just the component of handwriting it's loss of thoughts when a pencil is in his hand and loss of ability to recognize when something needs to be capitalized, punctuation, etc. Through VT and copywork he's starting to improve and he'll be in 7th this next year. He used HWT for years but it didn't transfer to his remembering the shape of the letters. This past year we switched to Queen's cursive primer and he LOVED it - no more complaints - it's beginning to stick too. Since he's a lefty he does tend to write more up and down like the HWT cursive - but it's beautiful. We don't use as much narration for him I'm hoping to transition to more but right now his spelling skills are still weak.

 

Little guy hasn't been formally evaluated but has been to some OT for SPD - we are using the Queen's material for him too.

[PeterPan]

So, what do you use for writing curriculum?

 

I'm curious about copywork because I like the idea of Writing With Ease...and I can't quite decide whether it would be good for her, or a nightmare. So, I'm curious what others think...

 

As for severity and type, dd's dysgraphia shows up in spontaneous work. Copying is accurate, though it is tiring. Handwriting is quite legible. Still working on retraining some awkward letter strokes for comfort, but legible. Typing has begun.

 

Lovetoread, I was going to comment about your dysgraphia comments in another thread, but I'll put them here, in yours. I think it's easy to take a label (dysgraphia, whatever) and assume it explains everything. You're seeing the SYMPTOMS, but you may need to dig a bit deeper on the causes. For instance, is the hand tiring because of the brain (neurological problem, expressive language difficulty) or is it actually tiring because she is low tone and has hand strength problems? You can have BOTH. We ended up doing OT, and in just a couple months got a big turnaround on that fatigue with writing thing. Some kids' hands tire because of how they're holding the instrument or because of the strain, holding it so hard as they try to think. That's the kind of thing an OT can help you sort out. So that's one track to pursue.

 

Next, the handwriting itself. Hmm, how many angles can this have? Well in our house VT made a HUGE difference. I have befores and afters that are quite dramatic, all from a few months of VT. We would try to do handwriting pages, and she couldn't close the O's properly. She couldn't remember letter formation, and yes this was when she was in 5th grade! A few months of VT, and those things were improving. If you're seeing double or fuzzy, no wonder you can't she couldn't get the letters to look like we needed! And no remembering the letter formation, well that was visual memory, something they assess as part of the eval.

 

More angles to handwriting? There's the term dyspraxia that OT's use, which is the motor control aspect. So they do things like Callirobics to work on it, doing motions to music. Frankly, it's very, very, VERY hard for my dd, to the point that we finally gave up. I had someone counsel me to have her do the same types of motions, only calling it doodling, and do it without the music. The music is probably drawing on the working memory. In any case, put together it was too hard for right now.

 

And of course you have that whole thing of how their brain draws information out. If you're getting lots of errors, even with copywork, I'd go back and look at the eyes.

 

Oh, you mentioned wondering whether she's dyslexic. Well it seems some practitioners are dropping that label (except to mean reading disorder) and changing to identifying the parts. There is the idea of stealth dyslexia, which you might like to google if you haven't yet. As you say, it explains why you can have a dc who reads and is so bright but is just not quite right.

 

Now here's also why I think you might get divergence of opinion on the copywork. It has nothing to do with whether it's valuable. One, if your kid's eyes aren't working right, making the copywork physically hard as the eyes go back and forth and refocus, then they're going to buck. Two, if they're very smart they're going to ask why they're doing this. So while it might be a nice idea, it might be a hard sell. Alternately, you could put work on the board for her to copy. That makes it more romantic for some kids, and it's great visual work (if their eyes can do it). Our VT wanted us to do more of that. And that is definitely a life skill, as they're going to want to copy diagrams and problems in science and math classes in college.

 

WWE is very valuable, but it is mostly oral, not sure what your connection is here. By all means do it. But it's not like you do one or the other. You should do WWE *and* copywork *and* dictation *and* narrations. You want to do the tasks, see where she hits snags, then work on figuring out why and filling in the skills. But nothing says it has to be torturous. You can be kind of sneaky with the smart kid, kwim? Like with my dd I have her copying recipes from our family recipe box to put into her own, personal box. Now is that school or something she's doing for fun? ;)

 

Oh, you wanted a writing program. Think short but mighty. Personally, I would focus on getting these basics in order and not get distracted. The Jump In writing prompts in the tm were great for us this past year. The Unjournaling ones are a bit shorter and might be a nice place to start for 5th. I really like Writing Tales. If you're coming off a bad stretch with writing, I'd look at WT1 this year, to keep the models shorter, keep building your skills, and do WT2 for 6th.

 

There are also some good ebooks you can get from Scholastic. They just had their dollar days, so you missed that. I like the one on paragraphs, and another poster here on the boards recommended the Tara McCarthy books, which I just got but haven't used yet. Right now I'm going back with my dd and doing again the models we used in Writing Tales but doing them in a new way, with the CW Homer skills. Then I have CW Diogenes Maxim in the wings. We'll see how that goes. Nothing seems to go straight for my dd. I just keep going back and focusing on the basics, re-doing things till they're EASY and looking for the glitches and hitches when I can't get the skills to be easy for her. If the problem is hand strength or working memory or visual memory or whatever, we have to improve those to go forward, kwim?

 

My dd has things inside to say that are worth getting out in writing, and I think this is often the case for dyslexics. It's worth it to take the time to build these skills and help them get there.

Edited June 15, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[merry gardens]

Lovetoread, I was going to comment about your dysgraphia comments in another thread, but I'll put them here, in yours. I think it's easy to take a label (dysgraphia, whatever) and assume it explains everything. You're seeing the SYMPTOMS, but you may need to dig a bit deeper on the causes. For instance, is the hand tiring because of the brain (neurological problem, expressive language difficulty) or is it actually tiring because she is low tone and has hand strength problems? You can have BOTH. We ended up doing OT, and in just a couple months got a big turnaround on that fatigue with writing thing. Some kids' hands tire because of how they're holding the instrument or because of the strain, holding it so hard as they try to think. That's the kind of thing an OT can help you sort out. So that's one track to pursue.

 

Next, the handwriting itself. Hmm, how many angles can this have? Well in our house VT made a HUGE difference. I have befores and afters that are quite dramatic, all from a few months of VT. We would try to do handwriting pages, and she couldn't close the O's properly. She couldn't remember letter formation, and yes this was when she was in 5th grade! A few months of VT, and those things were improving. If you're seeing double or fuzzy, no wonder you can't she couldn't get the letters to look like we needed! And no remembering the letter formation, well that was visual memory, something they assess as part of the eval.

 

More angles to handwriting? There's the term dyspraxia that OT's use, which is the motor control aspect. So they do things like Callirobics to work on it, doing motions to music. Frankly, it's very, very, VERY hard for my dd, to the point that we finally gave up. I had someone counsel me to have her do the same types of motions, only calling it doodling, and do it without the music. The music is probably drawing on the working memory. In any case, put together it was too hard for right now.

 

And of course you have that whole thing of how their brain draws information out. If you're getting lots of errors, even with copywork, I'd go back and look at the eyes.

 

Oh, you mentioned wondering whether she's dyslexic. Well it seems some practitioners are dropping that label (except to mean reading disorder) and changing to identifying the parts. There is the idea of stealth dyslexia, which you might like to google if you haven't yet. As you say, it explains why you can have a dc who reads and is so bright but is just not quite right.

 

Now here's also why I think you might get divergence of opinion on the copywork. It has nothing to do with whether it's valuable. One, if your kid's eyes aren't working right, making the copywork physically hard as the eyes go back and forth and refocus, then they're going to buck. Two, if they're very smart they're going to ask why they're doing this. So while it might be a nice idea, it might be a hard sell. Alternately, you could put work on the board for her to copy. That makes it more romantic for some kids, and it's great visual work (if their eyes can do it). Our VT wanted us to do more of that. And that is definitely a life skill, as they're going to want to copy diagrams and problems in science and math classes in college.

 

WWE is very valuable, but it is mostly oral, not sure what your connection is here. By all means do it. But it's not like you do one or the other. You should do WWE *and* copywork *and* dictation *and* narrations. You want to do the tasks, see where she hits snags, then work on figuring out why and filling in the skills. But nothing says it has to be torturous. You can be kind of sneaky with the smart kid, kwim? Like with my dd I have her copying recipes from our family recipe box to put into her own, personal box. Now is that school or something she's doing for fun? ;)

 

Oh, you wanted a writing program. Think short but mighty. Personally, I would focus on getting these basics in order and not get distracted. The Jump In writing prompts in the tm were great for us this past year. The Unjournaling ones are a bit shorter and might be a nice place to start for 5th. I really like Writing Tales. If you're coming off a bad stretch with writing, I'd look at WT1 this year, to keep the models shorter, keep building your skills, and do WT2 for 6th.

 

There are also some good ebooks you can get from Scholastic. They just had their dollar days, so you missed that. I like the one on paragraphs, and another poster here on the boards recommended the Tara McCarthy books, which I just got but haven't used yet. Right now I'm going back with my dd and doing again the models we used in Writing Tales but doing them in a new way, with the CW Homer skills. Then I have CW Diogenes Maxim in the wings. We'll see how that goes. Nothing seems to go straight for my dd. I just keep going back and focusing on the basics, re-doing things till they're EASY and looking for the glitches and hitches when I can't get the skills to be easy for her. If the problem is hand strength or working memory or visual memory or whatever, we have to improve those to go forward, kwim?

 

My dd has things inside to say that are worth getting out in writing, and I think this is often the case for dyslexics. It's worth it to take the time to build these skills and help them get there.

Great post, Elizabeth! I absolutely agree that it's worth teaching these skills! We just have to sometimes get creative in order to teach them.

 

I like your copying recipes for a recipe box idea! I've come to discover activities related to cooking, (like using rolling pins, grinding nuts with old-fasioned nut grinders, opening cans and kneeding dough) can help strengthen the hand muscles that are also involved in handwriting. I inherited a number of old kitchen utensils, which were used by elderly relatives who had beautiful handwriting. We're using them more this year, and it's fun.

 

Here's another creative idea that I'm entertaining. I found an old type-writer in an antique type-writer this weekend, and I was thinking about buying it. The old mechanics fascinate me and one child with me was also fascinated by it. The old machines require more hand strength than a computer keyboard, and they don't take any electicity. If my son could do it, it might benefit him by building his hand and finger strength for handwriting, (which I value) while also teaching him keyboarding, (which I expect he will predominately use in the future, like all the rest of us.) Plus, I like antiques, and this would give me an excuse to buy it. ;)

 

Get creative. Writing is a creative process, and teaching writing also involves creativity.:)

Edited June 15, 2011 by merry gardens

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I suspect my younger son of having a dysgraphia issue and I've continued copywork with him. If his issue was so severe that he could hardly write, I might reconsider, but his issue seems to be more about spacing between words and page position of text, size of letters being uniform, being able to think a sentence and convert that into the same thing in writing, etc.

 

I have used Getty Dubay italics with both my boys (older has no such issues) because I think it's both an easier style of script for boys and because I think it's easier to retain for usages such as notetaking in college, etc.

 

I continued through all the levels of the handwriting practice books that they offered and in logic stage have added in some copywork books that Julie Shields has done (available on Lulu.com). I like that they go along with things we're studying in history (linked to SOTW) and can even be used for some memory work, too. These provide a way for him to practice uniform writing skills without also having to think about what he's going to say at the same time.

 

I have also added in other free copywork I've found online from various places at different times. I think Julie offered a free Advent booklet at one point, for instance, and I've found Bible verses and other bits of wisdom. You could make your own, of course, and dictation is also useful, but I think it works different skills, as with thinking about and writing your own essays, etc. Straight copywork is just allowing them to work on the writing issues, without the need to also transfer thoughts into written words or use memory to transfer what you've read into written words....

 

My son's writing is not nearly as bad at the end of seventh grade as it was at the beginning of fifth grade, so I am encouraged.... It's a slow process, but I do think that it is helping....

 

If I had a child who had an extreme amount of dysgraphia, then I might just ask them to copy a sentence or two a day (slowly adding more as they got more proficient), and do more dictation type work with them typing that.

 

Yes, I would stick with good literature and good phonics readers (if they're younger). I faked it till mine could make it with spelling, allowing him to spell aloud and slowly, sounding out each syllable for him over and over until he could begin to get spelling down better. He didn't start writing out his spelling tests until he was in third or maybe even fourth grade. Even now, he will use apostrophes where they don't belong, or fail to use them where they are needed; he will consistently leave out the extra 'L' when writing a word that ends in 'LY'; he will mix up to and too (less often now); he will mix up there and their (and still less often "they're"), etc. And I just switched to a more remedial form of grammar this past year so that I could go over rules with him more carefully and more at length (Easy Grammar); I add in a diagramming workbook.

 

As I said, it has been a long, slow process. I just got a thank you note from a boy who graduated this year, however, and it is apparent that he is dysgraphic and got no help whatsoever from his school district. I think any help we can give these kids will serve them well in life; I'm not sure how that poor boy is going to fare in college....

[PeterPan]

Regena, how *much* copywork are you having your ds do? I'm looking at your blog with new eyes, btw. We've hit so many walls where we try stuff and things just don't seem right. On your history and science schedules, do you do *writing* with those or just read?

[SonshineMama]

Our son has neurological damage to the right side of his body and happens to be right handed. I've encouraged him to try to write with his left hand but he doesn't want to and feels uncomfortable . . . so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

We use HWT (2nd grade) for our 9yo and one worksheet a day is more than enough writing. He's also doing recipe for reading (he's dyslexic as well) and I only require he write one line. With callirobics and brain integration therapy/brain gym, his hand isn't shaking anymore - his o's used to look like the blade of a circular saw. But writing is still VERY difficult. He sees the OT Monday and I plan on discussing this with her further.

 

He's made HUGE strides. 6 months ago, he couldn't even write a word without crying. So. . . that is the level of dysgraphia we are dealing with.

 

We do not require copy work for him.

 

Now, my dd is 11. She may have dysgraphia. We haven't had her diagnosed but she was REALLY struggling with spacing/messiness. I am having her work HARD at HWT and did writing 8 (brain integration therapy) and it's coming way more naturally. She just commented "wow this is getting easier" and I looked carefully and realized how tidy her letter were. If we could get them spaced well, we'd be in business. I am going to ask the OT about the spacing monday ;)

 

I can imagine requiring copy work for her. She's 11 and at this point, we still do not require copy work. She can get through the HWT page easily but even a paragraph is brutal for her. 2 sentences takes her about 15 to 20 miunutes.

 

We are working on typing. While I see the value in handwriting, if they were missing a leg, we'd have no problem with a prosthetic. If they were blind, we'd use braille. I look at it the same way ;) It's a disability. . . one we are working to overcome but using a crutch isn't a bad thing :tongue_smilie:

 

Just my opinion and I do know everyone has to do what they feel best for their own child :grouphug:

[Tokyomarie]

I have used Getty Dubay italics with both my boys (older has no such issues) because I think it's both an easier style of script for boys and because I think it's easier to retain for usages such as notetaking in college, etc..

 

I, too, have used Getty Dubay Italic for my dysgraphic boy. I began using it with my daughter midstream, after using a more traditional script with her, because she wasn't making the transition to cursive very easily. At the time, Handwriting Without Tears was either not around or not much known in the homeschool world. GD Italic was considered THE script for students having difficulty. Dd did great with the italic script. Ds was taught a block manuscript at school for a K4/5 program. I introduced GD Italic the next year. It was a good choice but he still had major difficulty due to low tone, visual issues, and memory issues. At a couple of points I thought about switching to HWOT but I actually do not like looking at the script at all! I don't think I could teach it. I much prefer the appearance of the italic.

 

I did handwriting practice with my son using copywork up through 8th grade. We went through most of the GD Italic books. The cursive never did stick so I decided to focus just on the manuscript form. We used very short pieces. Even during 8th grade I used just one longer sentence because ds's hand tired so quickly. I used a program called Startwrite to generate worksheets using the italic script. Even in 8th grade, my son would first trace a sentence to reinforce proper letter formation, then copy it on the lines below.

 

I switched him to keyboarding for all composition work by 5th grade. My focus for handwriting practice/copywork was to help him gradually develop a legible enough hand that he could fill out forms and do short worksheets with single word to phrase level answers. Recently he has been trying to write with a cursive script, I think because he's trying to develop his signature. He has never had to sign anything until recently & after I told him he should at least learn to write his name in cursive for his signature, I've noticed him trying. I may offer him the chance to use the GD system again to work on cursive italic.

[mcconnellboys]

Some writing is included in all subjects. I try to mix that up with this child, rather than just asking him to write papers for me (as I did with my oldest).

 

For the copywork, when I'm using Julie's workbooks, for instance, she usually has about two sections on a page. Each is probably usually about 3 or 4 sentences long (or lines long, anyway). There's the phrase written out, then lines underneath for it to be copied. I just have him do one of those per day (usually). This was still his only practice for the day with writing in cursive and attempting to do so very neatly.

 

He was in an outside writing through literature class this past year. He had weekly assignments that included a little vocab at times; lots of answering of questions about the reading or making connections regarding the reading; and various writing assignments, varying from short paragraphs to essays, and from oral presentations backed up with posters or other displays to lengthier research reports. Because of this, I didn't also require him to write lengthy history reports for me weekly, although he did write some. He also outlined for me weekly (using SOTW).

 

I did have him write out this work for the lit class. I then typed it up, verbatim, for him and went over it with him (relying on the computer program's marking of problem areas to point out errors, which took the onus off me as being the bad guy who was just criticizing him for no reason). I did this because his hand is strong enough to do that amount of writing over the course of two or three days and I do want him to work on the problem he has of getting his thoughts onto paper in a coherent way, too.

 

For science this year, he did do a few reports, but he also was working in a couple of different workbooks daily that included a lot of open ended questions he answered. He kept a lab notebook for an outside chemistry lab he was in during the spring. He made a timeline of scientists and he also recorded some basic terms used, along with their definitions. Carson Dellosa is one company that oftentimes will have out workbooks on various topics that include good questions which can help vary writing. I think these make it simpler for them than simply being given a broad topic and asked to write an entire paper on it.

 

I similarly had him working in various geography workbooks throughout the year, which mixed up answering questions with some short research paragraphs or, in some cases, a few longer papers on topics of interest. Things he's writing for me I don't tend to make him rewrite. He writes them in pencil and I will go over corrections with him and just let him change those on the original paper.

[PeterPan]

Regena, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing! :)