MM users-Math timing

[kwickimom]

How much time a day do you spend on Math or how many pages do you do a day?

 

My DD HATES Math and takes FOREVER to get done. We are doing MM3 and I tried to do 3 to 4 pages a day so we could stay on schedule, but in reality DD can only handle 2 pages most days. I was shooting for 45 mins and its just too much.

 

I am thinking of just doing 1/2 hour a day, but is that just too little a time to spend on Math. I could do 2 sessions I guess. :glare:

[mazakaal]

My kids do 30min per day. Some days they only get one page done, some days 2-3 pages. My 7yo finished MM1 a while ago and I'm having him do some onl MEP workbooks for reinforcement. My 8yo is behind in math and only today began MM3. I'd like her do work more quickly to try to catch up, but even getting 30min out of her is like pulling teeth.

[Paige]

We are doing MM3 and my son would be having fits if he had to do 3-4 pages every day. We average 2 pages, sometimes 3 if there are a lot of graphics or it is especially easy. I don't know how long we spend on it as I've never timed it. I would guess he spends about 25-30min at the most. His retention is good and he's learning and progressing, and I just know that if we do more than 2 pages he starts to lose focus and there's no point continuing. We moved and lost about 3-4 weeks of work and so we're behind now, but I plan on working through the summer to make it up rather than speeding us up. We had been on a 4 day schedule and I will add math in on Fridays now to help make up a little time but it won't make a huge difference. I still think he should be done by the first or 2nd week of June.

[boscopup]

We're in 2B, and we do one section per day, which is 2-3 pages. At that schedule, we're finishing 2 at a faster than recommended pace. Grade 3 must have more pages.

 

Definitely split it up, and if there are a lot of problems, I either assign half of them (if it's a topic he doesn't need that much practice in) or we do some sections orally.

[PeterPan]

30-35 minutes a day for age 8, so yes you might be trying to do too much. I would see how long her tolerance is when then material is a bit easier and go by that. You need to go back and find a sweet spot for her. If she's HATING the math, it may be she's telling you she's not developmentally there or doesn't really get it yet. I haven't done the lower levels of MM. Do they have you using manipulatives? This is still a good age to use manipulatives. Good nothing, it's an ESSENTIAL age to make sure you're connecting the math to reality so that they GET it. Doing it on paper the way MM does is NOT going to get it through for all kids. Math is not some escalator or conveyor belt you just push them through. You have to get off the belt, stop, diverge, and come back afresh. She could be in the middle of a growth spurt and just need a break and time to do other things.

 

Seriously, sometimes a BREAK makes you jump more than working. I would take a break and play math games and do the math new ways. Is she slow because her facts are slow? Or because she's having trouble remembering how to do things? Or because her processing (just how she does everything) is slow? Or because she's feeling overwhelmed? Whatever it is, backing up can help. Going back into easy material helps her facts get faster and chills that overwhelmed feeling.

 

Does any of that resonate? Math is hard to sort out with kids. But if you can figure out why she's struggling and feeling this way, then you can figure out what to do about it. It's NOT necessary to push, push, push. If you work year-round, it's all going to pan out in the wash. It's much more important to figure out what's going on and go back and address it. She may need to backtrack and repeat or use some manipulatives. Or she may just need time to grow. In homeschooling, sometimes we outpace their maturity.

[kathkath]

How about doing it orally some of the time? Maybe you can mix it up with games too.

[Aconnolley]

I think that my kids would die if I made them do 4 pages a day. :tongue_smilie: My older two (MM3 & MM 4) did 2 pages a day unless one was a teaching page and then it didn't count as a page, so they did three. They did all of the cumulative reviews, but not all of the tests. I did speed through the last chapter with my oldest and did a lot of it orally. He will probably be doing a different program next year. It just wasn't a good fit for him. The other thing that we did was to pull from a different chapter if we were on something especially grueling. I would just give them a page of the harder topic and another from a different chapter like measuring or time to shorten our day.

 

My youngest (MM1) usually just did 1 page a day. We did push it a little towards the end of the year to get done though.

 

My older two probably averaged 40 minutes a day or so.

 

Angela

[kwickimom]

30-35 minutes a day for age 8, so yes you might be trying to do too much. I would see how long her tolerance is when then material is a bit easier and go by that. You need to go back and find a sweet spot for her. If she's HATING the math, it may be she's telling you she's not developmentally there or doesn't really get it yet. I haven't done the lower levels of MM. Do they have you using manipulatives? This is still a good age to use manipulatives. Good nothing, it's an ESSENTIAL age to make sure you're connecting the math to reality so that they GET it. Doing it on paper the way MM does is NOT going to get it through for all kids. Math is not some escalator or conveyor belt you just push them through. You have to get off the belt, stop, diverge, and come back afresh. She could be in the middle of a growth spurt and just need a break and time to do other things.

 

Seriously, sometimes a BREAK makes you jump more than working. I would take a break and play math games and do the math new ways. Is she slow because her facts are slow? Or because she's having trouble remembering how to do things? Or because her processing (just how she does everything) is slow? Or because she's feeling overwhelmed? Whatever it is, backing up can help. Going back into easy material helps her facts get faster and chills that overwhelmed feeling.

 

Does any of that resonate? Math is hard to sort out with kids. But if you can figure out why she's struggling and feeling this way, then you can figure out what to do about it. It's NOT necessary to push, push, push. If you work year-round, it's all going to pan out in the wash. It's much more important to figure out what's going on and go back and address it. She may need to backtrack and repeat or use some manipulatives. Or she may just need time to grow. In homeschooling, sometimes we outpace their maturity.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write this!

 

She has always been slow, but multiplication facts are really killing us and thus division is basically impossible. She already hates Math, but I think right now it is just too hard. Some of it is attitude. I know facts are boring, but not all of school is uber exciting and in ps they are killing kids with timed drills. She just refuses to memorize them.

 

I am going to ponder all this. I think I am freaking out about "finishing" and I shouldnt be. I think that I think she "should" be doing more but I really dont have a grasp on what she should know right now. I am probably pushing too hard. I probably should have stopped and stayed on facts for awhile and not also went ahead with things. Mastery is a new concept to me, and I think I need to really sit down and realize that means she will be going a lot slower.

 

Thank you for making me think.

 

Her attitude is probably due to being overwhelmed and thats my fault. She memorizes stuff so easily (poems, definitions, vocab( I guess I just assumed this would be easy too.

 

UGH now I feel really bad

[Tam101]

I'm in the same boat with my son! He takes forever to get through math! I've tried a couple things last fall I scheduled 45 mins for math and expected him to get as much done as he could. Fail! He started resenting the timer and wasn't get enough done. Now, I break each section up into 1 or 2 lessons and expect him to finish it. Sometimes it takes two hours! I also don't have him do every problem typically just every other one unless he needs more practice. My son is actually good at math, but can't stay focused on it for some reason.

[ocelotmom]

If you look at the MM FAQ, it recommends 1.5 pages per day for 3rd grade, assuming 5 days per week, 40 weeks a year. There's 282 pages (according to that chart), so you could easily finish it with 1 page a day on average if you did 6 days a week and extended the school year.

 

It may be worth it to do something like that and slow down with an aim of better understanding rather than trying to catch up or finish the grade level "on time".

 

She also recommends not doing every single problem unless the extra practice is actually needed.

 

My 2nd grade DS is doing two pages most days, but rarely more than about half the problems on the page.

Edited May 16, 2011 by ocelotmom

[kandty]

We don't spend anymore than 30 minutes on math a day (less if possible). There are a lot of problems in MM! I never require them to do them all, unless they just don't understand. We do about half (less if it is easy and they get it). One is working on division (3B I think) and we spend two days on each lesson and he does about half of the lessons. My younger one is working in 1 on subtraction and he is doing about one lesson a day and about half of the problems or less. I like that each lessons the problems build on each other. They may be a little confused at first but by the end of the lesson they understand. If we did all the problem especially the ones at the beginning of the lesson, we would be burnt out fast. Good luck!

[PeterPan]

Chickadee (showing my southern background here), the child is NOT the enemy. Kids don't "refuse" to learn something. It just takes longer for some kids than we think it ought to. Yes you could back up and work on them a while. Would it help? With some kids it might. With other kids, you're in for a slog, about a 3-4 year slog. I kid you not.

 

It has NOTHING to do with you or how good the material is or their volition or anything else. It has to do with brains, wiring, and how many which ways some brains have to see things and make connections before they actually get in the brain from point A to point B. Some kids take the LONG ROUTE. Some kids need to see things a thousand ways, in lots of contexts, with stories, with pictures, with dogs, and they still look at you like you've never done it before. That's because the brain hasn't fully processed it and made those connections. Sometimes there's a reason. (dyslexia, a learning issue, a vision problem, whatever) Sometimes it's just that our expectations are unrealistic. That's cool that someone (emphasis on the ONE) comes on the board and tells how two weeks of focused effort got their kid over the hump and got facts flying like nobody's business. I'm not sure that's the norm, given how many threads we have to the effect of: how do I finally get these facts to stick in my kid's brain when we've been working on them for 5 years?

 

I mean seriously, what you're talking about is TOTALLY NORMAL, extremely common, not shocking, and NO reflection on you or your efforts.

 

I have two pieces of advice. One, do some standardized testing at the end of this year. It can be inexpensive (the CAT is $25), but it might calm your soul. It gives you something objective to compare to, and she's at a good age to start. It's just between you and the test scores, just for your information. Might show you some holes, or might show you you're doing much better than you realize. :)

 

Two, give the child a multiplication table. You can give her a blank one and have her fill it out each day, then let her USE it for her math. Some kids are very visual, and seeing those patterns in the multiplication table while they use it will help IMMENSELY. I did this with my dd, and it was astonishing to see the way she thought through the math after a while. If they've completed the table themselves, it's not a crutch. It's a tool. Eventually they'll get faster and put it aside. I think my dd was at that stage for 2 years. I'm not saying it was a fast fix, but for us it was a GOOD fix.

 

(If she's an auditory, not visual learner, scratch all that and figure some auditory options for working on the facts.)

 

See what those two things do for you. It's ok for things to take a while. This process is NOT an escalator ride (smoothly going up) with all kids. Some kids need to jump off and shop a while before they can keep going up. I've done the current material we're doing now (percents, decimals, that kind of thing in MM6) more times than I can even count with my dd. Same for negative numbers. Oh my. It's just how it is with some kids. I've done through the BJU6 and part of BJU7 with my dd. We did some LoF, which she blew through. We missed a lot of time with math and went back to MM5, which she blew through but needed, having forgotten a lot. Now she's doing MM6 and really scratching her head. It's OK to do things over and over. In a couple years you're going to hit the growth spurt stage (where we are now), where they look at you like they never saw it before. Over and over. That's why there is so much review in the curriculum. If you go too far and it bites you in the butt, you just go back and do it a new, fresh way for a while. Love math games, love shopping (applied percents!!!). They see it lots of ways and make lots of connections, till they finally HAVE it.

 

As far as fun ways to diverge, look at some of the workbooks here. http://www.millerpadsandpaper.com/Math_c10.htm BACK WAY UP, looking for something easy. Let math be FUN for a while. It will make her faster on things. Then move forward a bit. Change things up. That's why Maria includes so many fun links and whatnot in the MM materials. She WANTS you to change it up. She KNOWS kids need to see math lots of ways, in more contexts. And if it makes you freaky to stop MM, cut it back to 1 page a day and then do one page of that fun math, kwim? Or 2 pages MM and 1 page of fun math. See where that gets you. Add a little spice.

 

You'll get there. I adore those workbooks Miller Pad & Paper sells. We've done some of them, and I'm realizing there are a couple more that would work for us now. Maybe your dd will like them too! :)

 

PS. You should see how we're going to do pre-algebra. I have some reproducible workbooks from the library (one of which we've done, several more I just got) and a textbook and a LoF and will get the MM worksheets. Lots of different ways, lots of angles and new perspectives, trying to make the connections. It's not about doing things just one perfect way. I also use the CWP books with her.

Edited May 16, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[kwickimom]

Chickadee (showing my southern background here), the child is NOT the enemy. Kids don't "refuse" to learn something. It just takes longer for some kids than we think it ought to. Yes you could back up and work on them a while. Would it help? With some kids it might. With other kids, you're in for a slog, about a 3-4 year slog. I kid you not.

 

It has NOTHING to do with you or how good the material is or their volition or anything else. It has to do with brains, wiring, and how many which ways some brains have to see things and make connections before they actually get in the brain from point A to point B. Some kids take the LONG ROUTE. Some kids need to see things a thousand ways, in lots of contexts, with stories, with pictures, with dogs, and they still look at you like you've never done it before. That's because the brain hasn't fully processed it and made those connections. Sometimes there's a reason. (dyslexia, a learning issue, a vision problem, whatever) Sometimes it's just that our expectations are unrealistic. That's cool that someone (emphasis on the ONE) comes on the board and tells how two weeks of focused effort got their kid over the hump and got facts flying like nobody's business. I'm not sure that's the norm, given how many threads we have to the effect of: how do I finally get these facts to stick in my kid's brain when we've been working on them for 5 years?

 

I mean seriously, what you're talking about is TOTALLY NORMAL, extremely common, not shocking, and NO reflection on you or your efforts.

 

I have two pieces of advice. One, do some standardized testing at the end of this year. It can be inexpensive (the CAT is $25), but it might calm your soul. It gives you something objective to compare to, and she's at a good age to start. It's just between you and the test scores, just for your information. Might show you some holes, or might show you you're doing much better than you realize. :)

 

Two, give the child a multiplication table. You can give her a blank one and have her fill it out each day, then let her USE it for her math. Some kids are very visual, and seeing those patterns in the multiplication table while they use it will help IMMENSELY. I did this with my dd, and it was astonishing to see the way she thought through the math after a while. If they've completed the table themselves, it's not a crutch. It's a tool. Eventually they'll get faster and put it aside. I think my dd was at that stage for 2 years. I'm not saying it was a fast fix, but for us it was a GOOD fix.

 

(If she's an auditory, not visual learner, scratch all that and figure some auditory options for working on the facts.)

 

See what those two things do for you. It's ok for things to take a while. This process is NOT an escalator ride (smoothly going up) with all kids. Some kids need to jump off and shop a while before they can keep going up. I've done the current material we're doing now (percents, decimals, that kind of thing in MM6) more times than I can even count with my dd. Same for negative numbers. Oh my. It's just how it is with some kids. I've done through the BJU6 and part of BJU7 with my dd. We did some LoF, which she blew through. We missed a lot of time with math and went back to MM5, which she blew through but needed, having forgotten a lot. Now she's doing MM6 and really scratching her head. It's OK to do things over and over. In a couple years you're going to hit the growth spurt stage (where we are now), where they look at you like they never saw it before. Over and over. That's why there is so much review in the curriculum. If you go too far and it bites you in the butt, you just go back and do it a new, fresh way for a while. Love math games, love shopping (applied percents!!!). They see it lots of ways and make lots of connections, till they finally HAVE it.

 

As far as fun ways to diverge, look at some of the workbooks here. http://www.millerpadsandpaper.com/Math_c10.htm BACK WAY UP, looking for something easy. Let math be FUN for a while. It will make her faster on things. Then move forward a bit. Change things up. That's why Maria includes so many fun links and whatnot in the MM materials. She WANTS you to change it up. She KNOWS kids need to see math lots of ways, in more contexts. And if it makes you freaky to stop MM, cut it back to 1 page a day and then do one page of that fun math, kwim? Or 2 pages MM and 1 page of fun math. See where that gets you. Add a little spice.

 

You'll get there. I adore those workbooks Miller Pad & Paper sells. We've done some of them, and I'm realizing there are a couple more that would work for us now. Maybe your dd will like them too! :)

 

 

She has been refusing to learn her facts, she will sit and stare and then act like she doesnt remember them even though I KNOW she knows 2 times 2, my 5YO and 3YO do. She "hates them and doesnt want to do them" :glare: I do cut down on the number of problems I have her do per day if she knows them.

 

I somehow figured I needed to do 3-4 MM pages to get done in a year, but someone else posted that is 1.5 :001_huh: Woo that may be half my issue right there. We never got to more than 2 anyways because that would take 6 hours!

 

I am going to take a break for 2 weeks and do some fun stuff (I youtube'd some fact songs and marked some games) and I have a multiplication lapbook, etc to do. Those millerpad math books look wonderful so I may do some of those too. Then I am going to start over with the division and go at about a page and a half a day and I will also do more on the whiteboard, maybe the worksheet part is freaking her out too. I do use manipulatives (she did NOT get division without them)

 

Thank you for making me take a step back and figure this out and thanks all for the advice. ;)

[PeterPan]

Uh, if she says she doesn't know them and it's a compliance thing, I would graciously improve her learning by adding 10 more problems to the work. And walk away. Discipline and manipulation are battles of their own. ;)

[Paige]

Are you sitting with her? When my DS is taking an unusual time with math, or any subject we're doing with workbooks or sheets, it helps things tremendously if I stop and talk him through the problems one by one. I think it is a focus thing, or maybe sometimes he may be stuck on one small part that is holding him back and when I'm there we can stay on task and move past the issue more quickly. When he is doing really well, he doesn't need me to sit by him and can go quickly without help.

[kwickimom]

Are you sitting with her? When my DS is taking an unusual time with math, or any subject we're doing with workbooks or sheets, it helps things tremendously if I stop and talk him through the problems one by one. I think it is a focus thing, or maybe sometimes he may be stuck on one small part that is holding him back and when I'm there we can stay on task and move past the issue more quickly. When he is doing really well, he doesn't need me to sit by him and can go quickly without help.

 

 

Yep, I am right there with her. Math is not her thing, but this is something that needs done and I get sick if fighting about it