Latin advice for those who started with older kids

[Angel]

Ok, that is probably not the best title. :glare: I'm not sure if I should post this here or the high school board, but thought I'd start here.

 

Background...started homeschool in 5th grade, decided to give Latin a try in 6th and began with Prima Latina as an easy intro (and to see if she liked it). It went great and she loved it. 7th grade went on to LCI and it did not work (at all). I didn't know enough to teach it, and it wasn't making sense to either of us. Latin fizzled out for the year. 8th grade (this year) switched to LFC A. I didn't have to teach it and she was working through it independently. Now we hit the problem.

 

LfC A is introducing more at a quicker pace. Dd is understanding most, but after talking with her last night, she is frustrated that she is not understanding/remembering more (also probably my fault as I have not drilled vocab/chants like I should). With high school looming we are trying to decide what route to take for her credits in foreign language. She thinks she'd like to stick with Latin because she is already somewhat familiar with it but I don't know what she needs.

 

Would she get more out of LfC if we used the dvd's. Is it more explanatory than just the book alone? I know that LfC is not high school credit material, but I am trying to get her where she can understand and "get" high school Latin if she wants to continue with it.

 

Dd told me last night that she gets frustrated when a word pops up that she has not studied yet. She likes to know all the vocab words/declensions/chants before they throw anything at her to translate. Is that parts to whole learning?

 

I guess I'm trying to figure out if we are in the right Latin program for her OR if maybe we need to switch OR if maybe we should scrap Latin completely and find a different foreign language.

 

Any advice would be helpful, and if you think scrapping Latin is a good idea...what language might be a good one to try.

 

Thanks for helping me try and make sense of this.

[Faithr]

Hi Angel,

 

As someone who has grappled with Latin for years, I hear your frustration. The thing about Latin is that you absolutely must drill thoroughly. You can't get sloppy on it. This has been a hard fact for me to learn as consistency in anything is hard for me. We are using Latin for Children right now for my 9 and 13 year olds. We use the dvds and watch them to introduced a lesson and then about every other day as reinforcement. On the alternate days I use flashcards that I made up on index cards and a white board easel. I use the flashcards for vocab and the whiteboard to have the kids write out declensions and conjugations. We also just got the activity books. So our pattern has more or less worked out as: first day - dvd and workbook, second day, flashcards and activity book, 3rd day - dvd review and finish up workbook, 4th day-flashcards and activity, etc. We move on when I feel they really know the stuff thoroughly.

 

As for foreign language credits for high school, I can only tell you how we are doing it. I am requiring for our high school at least one year of High School Latin. My oldest took the equivelant of a high school latin class over the course of 3 years in 6th, 7th and 8th. She's now studying Spanish at the local community college. My 15 yo is going to take a homeschool Latin class next year but when he starts driving, he too, is going to take the modern foreign language of his choice at the community college.

 

Not all colleges accept Latin as a foreign language. Many want the language to be a modern one, so I personally think it is best to get some solid Latin under your belt (because it will really make learning other languages easier and teaches grammar and vocabulary so well) and then pick a modern foreign language.

 

My 2 cents.

[In The Great White North]

That's definitely parts - to - whole. Is she a visual learner too?

 

She should try Henle. They give you the vocab and make up sentences that use only what you have learned. No surprises.

 

Just make sure she understands that she is to MEMORIZE all the vocabulary and all the grammar (not just recognize) and do all the exercises (not just the essential exercises).

 

You need the Henle Latin 1 book, Answer Book, and grammar.

 

Memoria makes a schedule (optional) for doing it in one year or two (take two) and a cd (also optional). The cd is not helpful as a memory aid (like LCI), merely for pronunciation

[LisaNY]

Since she is in 8th gr., then I would try something like Henle. The student is never confronted w/new vocabulary or grammar within the lessons until after it has been introduced. It only deals w/3rd person verb forms in the beginning, since verbs are not covered until you get to unit 3.

 

There are two study guides available. The one from MP moves at a slower pace. I am using this w/my 13yo. dd, and she is doing very well with it. The one by Laura Berquist has two different tracks, so you can choose which one suits you best. I have never seen this one.

 

The 1st Henle book is equivalent to two years of hs Latin. One Caveat - if you use the MP guide without modification, it would take about 5 years to cover the 1st Henle book.

[Faithr]

Okay, just my two cents again and take it for what it's worth because I have never gotten through a whole year of high school Latin on my own. I've always had to resort to an outside teacher. BUT one of the reasons was Henle. We tried to do it with the MODG syllabus. It is boring to tears, at least for us and it was very time consuming. It's true you don't get hit with lots of new vocab words. That means that you dissect basically the same sentences over and over again. We found it tedious beyond words.

 

A different tact that I would take is to finish up Latin for Children through all the levels so that your dd has a solid start in Latin and then get the computer program Artes Latinae. This is the equivelent of one year of high school, it is self teaching and it is much more interesting than Henle. We have the program and we love it. The only problem is that I've been stretched too thin to really monitor my son while doing it so we petered out on it. Then I found out that someone near us is going to be offering Latin so we decided to go to an outside class. If that class hadn't popped up though, we would gotten back on track with Artes Latinae.

[Melissa B]

Memoria makes a schedule (optional) for doing it in one year or two (take two) and a cd (also optional). The cd is not helpful as a memory aid (like LCI), merely for pronunciation

 

Is the Memoria Press CD part of the study guide or do they include it with the purchase of the book? I haven't seen it offered on their website. Or am I just missing it?

 

Thanks!

[LisaNY]

Okay, just my two cents again and take it for what it's worth because I have never gotten through a whole year of high school Latin on my own. I've always had to resort to an outside teacher. BUT one of the reasons was Henle. We tried to do it with the MODG syllabus. It is boring to tears, at least for us and it was very time consuming. It's true you don't get hit with lots of new vocab words. That means that you dissect basically the same sentences over and over again. We found it tedious beyond words.

 

 

 

I am not familiar w/the MODG syllabus, but I know that Henle does not have the student working with the same sentences over and over again. The subject matter is basically the same - some religious/Catholic references & war/battle themes, but I don't think the actual sentences are unnecessarily repetitive.

 

I will agree that it can get a tad boring at times. However, I do feel that there is a method that the author follows, and I believe it is a good one. He gives manageable doses of vocabulary and grammar, instead of overwhelming the student. This way, the Latin is learned step-by-step, with plenty of review. He does not "firehose" the student by piling on long vocabulary lists and unrelated readings. Instead, he takes a gentle, methodical approach, which allows the student to actually *absorb* the material. Latin is *hard*, and I think Henle does a good job at making it accessible, albeit boring/tedious at times.

 

All of that being said, I am still a proponent of reading-based methods for learning Latin, but I think Henle dovetails nicely with reading texts like Cambridge and LL, even though the scope and sequence is different.

[Angel]

Thanks for some quick replies!

 

I would say that dd is a visual learner. She has Asperger's and auditory skills are on the rise but not the best way to learn. The dvd's of LfC would be a good fit for her then, maybe:confused:

 

Ok, so now I know that I need a parts to whole curriculum. That's good. I have always been confused by that terminology.

 

Regarding Henle, is it easily student led, or do I need to know Latin or keep ahead of her? She definitely likes reviewing till she gets it. Is the Memoria Press guide set up like LCI, just curious as that format really just didn't have enough information for us (I don't know why, we both just found it soo confusing).

 

Artes Latinae is this parts to whole? She might be intrigued by a computer program.

 

I really appreciate the help in trying to figure this out. I know now that I made a mistake in trying to rush through the rest of LfC A. I think we'll need to slow down and review till things are more firm. Next week is a review lesson so I guess this is as good a place as any to stop and look back over it all. I'd like to figure this out as I'm placing my Rainbow Resource order SOON and would like to know if I have anything to add to it.

 

I'll gladly take any more advice. Thanks, again!

[Faithr]

No, no, you're right. It isn't literally the same sentences but they are so similar for exercise after exercise that it FELT like doing the same thing over and over again.

 

The other thing is that if just using Henle you really can't enjoy reading Latin. You can study Henle for months but can't read a Latin inscription or quote that you stumble across because you simply haven't been given the vocabulary.

 

I appreciate the logic of his approach but it just didn't work for us. I guess we just need more bells and whistles. We are all ADD here anyway! LOL!

[Faithr]

Hi Angel,

 

Here's a review of Artes Latinae. http://www.love2learn.net/languages/latin.htm

 

I don't know if it's parts to whole, I think it sort of approaches Latin blending a parts to whole method as well as a whole to parts, if that's possible.

 

I think it would be excellent for a visual learner. First you have the computer program but in addition the workbook that goes with it uses little cartoon drawings through out. The print is smaller than I would like, though it didn't bother my son.

[LisaNY]

Thanks for some quick replies!

 

Ok, so now I know that I need a parts to whole curriculum. That's good. I have always been confused by that terminology.

 

Regarding Henle, is it easily student led, or do I need to know Latin or keep ahead of her? She definitely likes reviewing till she gets it. Is the Memoria Press guide set up like LCI, just curious as that format really just didn't have enough information for us (I don't know why, we both just found it soo confusing).

 

 

The MP guide is not set up like LCI. It is just a daily schedule with assignments. It also has the student create grammar/vocabulary cards, which they review daily. I would highly recommend the MP guide for your dd.

 

If you do use Henle, you will see that he explains everything. You will have many "aha" moments that explain the things that confused you in LCI. LCI does not give the whole picture as Henle does.

 

It is *always* helpful to both teacher and student if the teacher works well ahead of the student. It will make things so much easier, but it is a sacrifice of your time. There is a Henle list on yahoo that is full of very helpful people. You can always ask here if you get stuck. :001_smile:

[Angel]

Thanks for the link to Artes Latinae. I tried to look it up on cbd and it was a bit confusing.

 

Henle certainly sounds like it might fit. I had always written it off since it always came after LCI & LCII and I knew we didn't like them. Is there anywhere that I can get a peek of it on the internet? RR only has the front cover, as does amazon.

[Angel]

Ok, is there NOT anywhere online to get a look inside Henle? I can't seem to find a sample. If anyone knows of one, please direct me.

 

Thanks!

[profmom]

Angel, you might also want to check out Latin Alive. It's the new program for middle school by CAP. It's being piloted and professionally edited this year and is supposed to be available soon. (I think I heard May 2008.) Karenciavo from this forum has been using it this year and really likes it! There are sample chapters available and dd & I really like the way it looks. The chapters seem to cover the material in steps and explain the material is an easy-to-understand manner. The vocabulary lists look manageable, and there are sections for reading and learning conversational Latin. I asked the author about the themes (specifically whether the reading and vocabulary were focused on military themes), and she said that she has made a point to include topics that appeal to both boys and girls (culture, babies, etc.). We're planning to give it a try!

[Plaid Dad]

Seton has Henle samples.

 

If you are not able to learn Latin ahead of your dd and are serious about her studying it, I would strongly recommend finding a tutor or an online class. Henle is the best Latin text I've seen for independent study because of the clarity of the grammar explanations, but I still wouldn't expect a high school student to self-teach from it, particularly with no previous foreign language background and no outside help.

 

If you do need to go the self-study route, you might consider a modern Romance language like Spanish or French. Your dd's previous exposure to Latin will help with the vocabulary in those languages, but there are a lot more self-study programs available. Just a thought.

[profmom]

Angel, I hope you don't mind my asking in your thread, but, Plaid Dad, what do you think of the new Latin Alive based on the samples? I know it's new (so not yet tried and true) and when you're already sold on a program (like you are with Henle), you may not be as interested in new programs, but I'm curious what you think of what is shown. Seeing so many say that Henle is dry and boring and hearing things like "Henle killed more Gauls than the Romans" have motivated me to look for something that might be more appealing for my dd (and me).

 

It seems that there are elementary Latin programs and high school, but not many text written especially for middle school, like Latin Alive is. As a parent who is learning Latin along side/just ahead of her dc, I would like something that is divided/tweaked appropriately for middle school. Also, more variety in themes (less focus on military themes) seems like it would help keep Latin more interesting for a girl. The conversational Latin sections in Latin Alive seem fun too.

 

Any thoughts on this program?

[Angel]

I had forgotten about Latin Alive coming out. I will have to check it out again. And I don't mind that you ask a question in my thread:001_smile:

 

Thanks for the link to see Henle. It looks really good. I really do not want to learn Latin or teach Latin, so maybe we should look at a modern language. "I" have always wanted to learn French and now Greek is very interesting to me as well. Dd, though, has liked the Latin and is unsure of what other language she might be interested in. So am I understanding this right...I shouldn't do Henle if I am not going to be going ahead first and then teaching her? I didn't know that.

 

I guess I need to rethink about what we should do.

 

Thanks for all the advice. I do appreciate the help.

[Plaid Dad]

Angel, I hope you don't mind my asking in your thread, but, Plaid Dad, what do you think of the new Latin Alive based on the samples?

 

It's pretty hard to judge a program based on a few pages like that. I did notice that the written exercises in the sample seem very scanty. For example, Latin Alive has a total of twelve questions in the chapter where the first conjugation is introduced - six Latin-English translations and six English-Latin. While I assume that those forms will be reinforced in subsequent chapters, take a look at what the comparable section in Henle has:

 

* a nine-item exercise asking students to identify first conjugation infinitives

* an exercise listing the principal parts of three verbs

* an exercise requiring students to list the principal parts of all the verbs in the vocabulary (there are five), give the relevant grammar rule, and conjugate all of them in the present tense

* a ten-item exercise identifying forms and translating them

* a six-item exerise adding Latin verb endings to match an English translation

* a ten-sentence translation exercise (full sentences)

* another fill-in-and-translate exercise (five items)

* three paragraph-long translations

* a six-item sentence translation exercise with additional grammar information required

* a seven-item translation exercise, including three paragraphs and four sentences

 

Now it's important to understand that Henle covers all of the noun paradigms before getting to verbs, so the students are further into the course than they would be in chapter 2 of Latin Alive. But even from the very beginning, Henle gives many, many more exercises; his exercise #2 contains 33 noun forms to identify and translate, and it's only one of nine exercises in that first lesson.

 

That amount of repetition is absolutely crucial, imo. Even a method like Lingua Latina, which is wholly inductive, has many, many written and oral exercises to drill grammar and vocabulary. It may seem like overkill, but if you think of how many times a beginning math student needs to drill addition facts before they become second nature, you'll see why these methods insist on "overlearning" the forms. I would be concerned about a program that lacked sufficient exercises to achieve that instant recall.

 

Again, it's very hard to judge a whole program based on a few pages, but that was what struck me about what I did see. HTH!

[Plaid Dad]

So am I understanding this right...I shouldn't do Henle if I am not going to be going ahead first and then teaching her?

 

Yes, imo you really do need to work ahead in Latin if you want to use Henle or any high school or college level textbook effectively. Either that, or you can hire a tutor or sign up for an online class so she has a knowledgeable teacher to field her questions.

 

If you'd never taken calculus, you wouldn't just give your dd a high school textbook and expect her to figure it out with no help, right? Even if the book had great explanations, you'd expect there would things that she would need help figuring out. You'd either have to find her a teacher or learn calculus yourself so you could teach her. Same thing with Latin. :)

[profmom]

Again, it's very hard to judge a whole program based on a few pages, but that was what struck me about what I did see. HTH!

 

Thank you! I appreciate it! That's very helpful. :)