Can you help me with this Arrow passage?

[lisabees]

From Sadako and the Thousand Paper Cranes:

 

One morning in August 1954 Sadako ran outside into the street as soon as she was dressed.

 

This is a dictation sentence from Bravewriter's Arrow program. There is no punctuation. Shouldn't there be commas before and after "in August 1954"?

I understand the author has certain liberties, but when teaching punctuation through dictation, shouldn't it be grammatically correct?

 

So...I could be wrong. I am not a grammarian. I have seen this in other Arrow and Boomerang passages. I tell ds to do it my way, but maybe I am totally wrong! :D

[swimmermom3]

My understanding is that this is a short prepositional phrase and it does not work as an appositive. No comma. However, we all know how good my understanding is these days.:tongue_smilie: Also, the prepositional phrase in this case is a restrictive element as it limits which morning, so no comma.

Edited March 30, 2011 by swimmermom3

[lisabees]

Geesh. I have a lot to learn. :D

[swimmermom3]

Geesh. I have a lot to learn. :D

 

Me too. That's why I own numerous reference resources.:tongue_smilie: I wanted to put commas in too, but I want to put commas everywhere. Where is Capt. Uhura or Angela in Ohio when you need them?

[Capt_Uhura]

Sitting here scratching my head.....I wanted to put a comma after 1954....must. pull. out. warriner's......

[elegantlion]

I adore commas. That sentences screams PUT A COMMA SOMEWHERE. I have no idea where it would go, grammatically speaking.

[Capt_Uhura]

Ok Kalmia and I are on the job...... for what that's worth...

 

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/adverbs.htm

 

Bringing an adverbial modifier to the beginning of the sentence can place special emphasis on that modifier. This is particularly useful with adverbs of manner:

 

Slowly, ever so carefully, Jesse filled the coffee cup up to the brim, even above the brim.

 

Occasionally, but only occasionally, one of these lemons will get by the inspectors.

 

"In actual practice, of course, it would be highly unusual to have a string of adverbial modifiers beyond two or three (at the most). Because the placement of adverbs is so flexible, one or two of the modifiers would probably move to the beginning of the sentence: "Every afternoon before supper, Dad impatiently walks into town to get a newspaper." When that happens, the introductory adverbial modifiers are usually set off with a comma."

 

Morning is an adverb being modified by the adjective one. I think "in 1954" is a prepositional phrase acting as an adverb ie an adverb phrase so I think it deserves a comma.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[swimmermom3]

Yet another argument.:D Isn't this fun?

[lisabees]

Ok Kalmia and I are on the job...... for what that's worth...

 

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/adverbs.htm

 

Bringing an adverbial modifier to the beginning of the sentence can place special emphasis on that modifier. This is particularly useful with adverbs of manner:

 

Slowly, ever so carefully, Jesse filled the coffee cup up to the brim, even above the brim.

 

Occasionally, but only occasionally, one of these lemons will get by the inspectors.

 

"In actual practice, of course, it would be highly unusual to have a string of adverbial modifiers beyond two or three (at the most). Because the placement of adverbs is so flexible, one or two of the modifiers would probably move to the beginning of the sentence: "Every afternoon before supper, Dad impatiently walks into town to get a newspaper." When that happens, the introductory adverbial modifiers are usually set off with a comma."

 

Morning is an adverb being modified by the adjective one. I think "in 1954" is a prepositional phrase acting as an adverb ie an adverb phrase so I think it deserves a comma.

 

This makes sense to me. That doesn't prove anything, though, except that I need very specific examples for things to make sense. :lol:

 

Yet another argument.:D Isn't this fun?

 

Okay, her examples only sort of make sense to me (I've always been on the slow side)! Here are two questions.

 

Can "in August 1954" be a prepositional phrase? Is 1954 a noun?

 

I have to get out Strunk and White, but does there need to be at least five words to make it a prepositional phrase that needs commas? Certain sites explain that short (4 words or less) prep. phrases do not need commas.

 

I am starting to doubt that "in August 1954" is even a prep. phrase.

Edited March 31, 2011 by lisabees

[swimmermom3]

:001_huh: I will have to think about this...and go back and read Capt. Uhura's explanation again.

[Kuovonne]

I understand the author has certain liberties, but when teaching punctuation through dictation, shouldn't it be grammatically correct?

 

Ah, the use of commas can be such a tricky subject. Plus, comma usage has changed over time. Sometimes using a comma after a longish introductory phrase is more a matter of the writer's preference than anything else.

 

In cases where there is a grammatically acceptable reason for adding a comma I usually point it out to DD and we discuss why it would be okay to have a comma. Then I tell her that I will accept either way in her diction.

 

 

When that happens, the introductory adverbial modifiers are usually set off with a comma."

 

Morning is an adverb being modified by the adjective one. I think "in 1954" is a prepositional phrase acting as an adverb ie an adverb phrase so I think it deserves a comma.

 

:iagree:

Notice the usually means that sometimes there is a comma, and sometimes there isn't.

[swimmermom3]

Lisa, thanks for the fun puzzle. I e-mailed the ever-helpful Julie Bogart at BraveWriter to get her take on it and this is her response:

 

Great question! Because I'm not the author, I don't know why Coerr made that choice. It's fun to speculate though! And it's worth it to think a bit about comma use and punctuations conventions.

 

Usually you would find a comma after "1954" and before "Sadako." Some writers might even put two commas (after one "morning," and again after "August 1954"). I would see this passage as a great example of how comma use is mostly discretionary on the part of the writer and has more to do with style and breathing while reading, than following a set of "rules." The better term to use for punctuation "rules" is punctuation "conventions." Each English (American, British, Canadian, Australian, etc.) has its own conventions that are practiced by most authors of that particular brand of English. Yet in the end, the choice to use commas or not, to follow those conventions or not, is the author's (or editor's).

 

I might take a guess that this author is writing in a spare style, perhaps mirroring the Japanese culture's penchant for little clutter. In any case, it's not wrong. It's a choice and one worth noting. You could go through the book now, reading it, noting whether or not this author continues to leave out commas in places you might typically find them. (The modern trend in American publication is toward fewer commas, by the way.)

 

One last comment. I remember hearing an author speak several years ago now (wish I could remember her name!) and she talked about commas—the way people argue over them, the rules that feel impossible to master. She shared with the audience that when she submits her manuscripts to her editor, she includes a page of commas with the heading "Distribute at Will." :^)

 

I worked as an editor for many years. We used a style sheet as a guideline, but in the end, so much of our punctuating was based on the look on the page, as well as the feel of the overall paragraph. Discretionary. So the point to remember is this: authors make punctuation choices (sometimes they make punctuation errors—not a choice, but an oversight) and conventions are meant to guide us, not restrict us.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Julie

 

 

This is helpful for me and my sometimes over-abundant use of the comma. I don't ever remember struggling with comma usage all through my many years of education, but now that we homeschool, it seems to baffle me on a daily basis. I wonder if this has to do with the hours upon hours of reading aloud that I do and being much more aware of how the written word sounds. Obviously no coffee here this morning.;)

Edited March 31, 2011 by swimmermom3

[Capt_Uhura]

Very helpful! THank you!

[elegantlion]

Very helpful! THank you!

 

I agree, thank you. As a writer, it makes me feel better too. OR I could say ...As a writer it makes me feel better too.....OR.... As a writer, it makes me feel better, too. I love options. :lol::tongue_smilie:

[lisabees]

Okay, so let's see if I understand this correctly. When I give ds dictation, I tell him to put commas wherever he feels like it. :D

 

Thanks, Lisa, for asking Julie. It was fun reading her response! I'm more confused than ever, but that's not surprising.