Help me figure out what to do for LA for my 4th grader and kindy kid.

[BlueTaelon]

Older dd is 10 and hates LA with a passion. Getting her to read is impossible, we found out that was due to the fact she's a very slow reader. She decodes fine, comprehension is fine and she reads at grade level, just reads very slow. (Planning on buying ReadingPlus to help with this) 62wpm according to the school when I put her in PS for 2 months this semester which was a disaster. She's being testing for learning disabilities right now but a lot of it is, at least feels like, she is a lazy child and will not do anything that requires effort. She learns quickly but again, if it requires effort she puts up a fight of epic proportions.

 

Her writing skills are terrible and we need to start from basic grammar on up. We have a lot going on right now and are finally getting the help we need to deal with mental health issues that we have never really been able to address. I had no idea they had things like anger/stress management for 10 yr olds. We’re dealing with serious behavior issues but her education has been put on hold long enough and left her to own devices she will not do anything that includes getting an education and I have had enough. She is capable of learning and I expect her to do so. The mental illness aspect has been addressed and now were left dealing with behavior which is a choice.

 

I am trying to figure out what to do here, I was going on just pay for time4writing and start at the grammar level and go on but I am wondering if that is appropriate. She does not do well with my teaching her and will refuse to participate when I try teaching so I thought it best to use services that have someone else doing the teaching. For math I have her doing TT5 and she's doing wonderfully and without the frustration she was having using K12's Math+. I was thinking T4W might be a good fit but all the WTM stuff seems to indicate this level of writing instruction is not a good thing at this age. (just going by what I'm seeing online, it’s been a few years since I had a copy of TWTM in my hand, need to order a copy)

 

Would T4W courses back to back be a good thing? Start with grammar, then sentence structure, paragraphs then essays. It would take 8 months to get though all 4 courses.

 

or

 

Should I save the money and used SWBs Writing with Ease? It seems to be very slow though for remediation and I feel a bit stupid but I can't figure out which level to start with. She can not write a decent sentence and seems to have no knowledge of grammar despite the fact I have tried to teach it. I'm also worried about how am I going to get her to do it? (yes, I know, I'm the parent but she is a very difficult child to put it mildly)

 

It seems children are expected to be writing essays at this point but is that realistic?

 

ETA: Found a writing sample she did in school last month, was an opinion essay on muffins. Took a pic with my phone as I really couldn't type that mess up. Where would you start with a kid writing like that?

 

My younger dd turns 5 in June and is happily learning to read using HeadSprout at her request. I am assuming by fall she will be reading without much problem. She's learning to write her letters easily and thinks it’s a great game. I'm thinking I should pick up AAS1 to help her learn spelling while phonics are fresh in her mind (thinking it would be a good thing to use with older dd too, her spelling is awful!) but when and where would FLL or WWE come in? Kindy or 1st? I'm just trying to figure out what to order and when. I'm guessing by fall she will be adept at writing her letters as well and might be able to do copy work.

 

My girls are polar opposites from each other, little one loves school stuff, learning to read, writing, even math and she does it with ease. My older one... not so much. I mean she CAN do it, she just chooses not to and I'm not going to allow this anymore but I'm trying to figure out the how's. Now I know how my mother felt! I refused to do school work all through grade school but I was a veracious reader and loved learning on my own so I was the perfect unschooler type kid and I did end up fine educationally. My older dd worries me and I'm just at a loss on where to start with her.

Edited March 28, 2011 by BlueTaelon
added info

[Aurelia]

I'll start with the my comments for your younger child since I have experience with that age. AAS is an excellent program for spelling, if you have the time to devote to it. FLL and WWE are designed for first grade, although I used WWE when Ariel was 5 and it worked just fine. She's a bit accelerated, though, so you might want to take it at a slower pace and use it over a year and a half or something. I think a child can use it once they can comfortably write all the capital and lower case letters. People seem split on whether to use FLL in K or 1st. It wasn't our style, so I dropped it after a dozen lessons or so, but it's certainly doable by a kindergartener, though I don't feel that it's really necessary.

 

 

I think if we had the kind of defiance at my house that your older child exhibits, there would be a lot of chores involved. I would probably tell her, to paraphrase one of my favorite comments that I read on this board, "Since you are unwilling to learn what you need in order to be successful, it is my job to equip you with the skills to support yourself. Now go clean the toilet." Eventually she may decide that reading a book and writing a coherent essay is preferable to manual labor, and if not, well, you have a live in maid. :D

 

If she can't write a decent sentence, I'd start at the beginning. There's no way she can write an essay when she can't organize her thoughts effectively. Do you truly believe that she will be a better student if someone else teaches her? If so, you can always try the first T4W or another class and see how she does. IEW also has DVD workshops for students to teach them to write, I'm not sure if that would be less expensive, but it's another option.

[BlueTaelon]

I'll start with the my comments for your younger child since I have experience with that age. AAS is an excellent program for spelling, if you have the time to devote to it. FLL and WWE are designed for first grade, although I used WWE when Ariel was 5 and it worked just fine. She's a bit accelerated, though, so you might want to take it at a slower pace and use it over a year and a half or something. I think a child can use it once they can comfortably write all the capital and lower case letters. People seem split on whether to use FLL in K or 1st. It wasn't our style, so I dropped it after a dozen lessons or so, but it's certainly doable by a kindergartener, though I don't feel that it's really necessary.

 

 

I think if we had the kind of defiance at my house that your older child exhibits, there would be a lot of chores involved. I would probably tell her, to paraphrase one of my favorite comments that I read on this board, "Since you are unwilling to learn what you need in order to be successful, it is my job to equip you with the skills to support yourself. Now go clean the toilet." Eventually she may decide that reading a book and writing a coherent essay is preferable to manual labor, and if not, well, you have a live in maid. :D

 

If she can't write a decent sentence, I'd start at the beginning. There's no way she can write an essay when she can't organize her thoughts effectively. Do you truly believe that she will be a better student if someone else teaches her? If so, you can always try the first T4W or another class and see how she does. IEW also has DVD workshops for students to teach them to write, I'm not sure if that would be less expensive, but it's another option.

 

Thank you for your thoughts, my kid is weird, she LIKES scrubbing floors and toilets. This morning she begged me to mop the bathroom floor,of course she then proceeded to flood the bathroom in her fun which did not make me happy and she did clean it up but it took her an hour. This is one of the problems, normal punishments are fun to her and there is nothing I can really do to her to make her do something (really I have tried darn near everything short of a cattle prod). She really doesn't seem to care:( We just started having a therapist come in for an hour 3 days a week to work with her to figure out some form of discipline that works on her.

 

hmm.. you just gave me an idea, I just put in her karate lessons for a number of reasons. The master is wonderful with difficult kids, did wonders for me as a teen. I'm hoping he can do something similar with her, anyway, he happens to own a ranch a couple miles from here, I don't think being a maid for life is a threat since she likes deep cleaning but I do not see her being happy about free labor for the ranch (she's supposed to work on the ranch for a few hours 1 Saturday a month anyway to help pay for lessons since we can't afford the whole tuition). Wonder if he could use her on days she doesn't feel like doing school work. Planting season is coming and lots of weeds need to be pulled and seedlings planted:)

 

Anyway, for now I think having someone else teach the writing might be a good idea until she's a bit more accepting of the idea of me teaching. She says she doesn't understand when I explain things but I think a lot of it is her just trying to be difficult. Were still trying to figure things out and I have a very limited budget so paying for T4W is a big thing for us. I'd rather not if I can get away with not using it but I so far have not been able to get her to do work on a daily basis for me but were going through a lot of changes in the past 2 weeks. I've been shocked that I can get her to do the TT 5 days a week for the past 2 weeks. Its time to add in another subject. (slowing adding up to a normal workload)

[Momling]

If you're happy with Christian materials, you might look into Christian Light Education (CLE) language arts for your older daughter... perhaps started at the 200 or 300 level. It would be independent enough for her to do on her own and would introduce her to the mechanics and grammar and handwriting she'll need to improve her writing. It's also very unambiguous and straightforward and the lesson is self-contained in a three page spread. I wish there was a secular version of this, but I have yet to find anything like it.

[ElizabethB]

I saw that you used Headsprout to teach her to read--that has a number of sight words, which causes problems for about 30 to 40% of children. Her spelling mistakes in her essay are indicative of someone who has not fully automated the phonics process and is not understanding all the phonics combinations and rules.

 

I would quickly work through the program on my how to tutor page with her, making sure to do some nonsense words daily. (My concentration game, link #2 at the end.) The guide in #4 shows you how to integrate spelling into the program and tells you exactly what to say when. For things that she is reading and spelling well, just do a few words from each section; for sections that she had trouble with, have her read the whole section and spell a few words from that section.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html

 

Initially, she will probably slow down her reading for a few weeks, but then as the phonics is over-learned and automated, she should start to read much quicker and start to enjoy reading more. At the end of the program, you are moved to 2+ syllable words in Webster's Speller. If you work all the way through the speller, you learn phonics to the 12th grade level and are sounding out 7 syllable words quickly and easily.

Edited March 28, 2011 by ElizabethB

[KathyBC]

Just wanted to comment on the writing sample: I feel your pain. I have typed up such rough drafts from one of mine. After reading about editing with kids on the IEW yahoo group, as well as in The Writer's Jungle, at our house we would ideally try something like this:

 

First I would try to find something commendable in the content, even if I just end up thanking child for doing the assignment. (Wow, I'm glad you like homemade muffins! Which do you like better: blueberry or raspberry?) Then I would try to gently go over the spelling and grammar together. (Whoops, you missed a 't' in taste.) Finally, on another day I would have them type or write a good copy.

 

Anyway, I don't know much about Time 4 Writing - it sounds like it might be a good fit for your situation. If you need it, another option to have someone else teach your child writing is IEW's Student Writing Intensive course on DVD. (Level A is for gr. 3-5.)

 

Glad to hear things are going so well with your younger dd. I too would probably focus on reading and printing in K and leave FLL and WWE for grade 1, but you know your child best.

 

I admire your tone of determination and wish you all the best!

Edited March 28, 2011 by KathyBC
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