Question about SWB writing lectures

[prairie rose]

So I downloaded and listened to all the SWB writing MP3s except the high school one so far and I have a question.

 

In the lectures that I've listened to so far, I've found some mismatches from what is said in the lectures and what is found in WWE and FLL. For example, in the lectures it is suggested that first graders should be copying simple sentences pretty much all year yet the "final exam" in WWE 1 is 4 lines of poetry. To me a simple sentence is one that contains a simple subject, simple predicate, possibly a prepositional phrase or two if they need longer sentences or possibly a list that needs commas. Poetry seems a lot more complex than a simple sentence...or does WWE introduce this slowly? Another mismatch that puzzles me is that in the lectures, diagramming is introduced as a new skill to master in the middle school years but FLL introduces diagramming in FLL3. Have the recommendations changed since these lectures were produced?

 

Other than that, I have loved the lectures and feel a lot more confident about what we are doing and where we are heading. :) Thanks in advance for any clarification you can give me. :)

[ABQmom]

Here's my take on it. As for writing sentences, it would seem to me that she allows for ability here. I would think some first graders would be capable of writing out longer sentences or more than one, but some will have to spend all year writing one simple sentence.

 

As far as diagramming, I think you don't really use diagramming as a diagnostic tool until upper middle grades and possibly even high school, but you want to start teaching simple diagramming to young children so that they know how to do it well by the time they are ready to use it as a diagnostic tool. I think maybe in her lecture, she was speaking to people who haven't been doing diagramming at all since most grammar programs don't seem to include it. She would recommend that you get started with it in the middle grades if you haven't already.

 

Anyone else have a thought?

[Colleen in NS]

Here's my take on it. As for writing sentences, it would seem to me that she allows for ability here. I would think some first graders would be capable of writing out longer sentences or more than one, but some will have to spend all year writing one simple sentence.

 

As far as diagramming, I think you don't really use diagramming as a diagnostic tool until upper middle grades and possibly even high school, but you want to start teaching simple diagramming to young children so that they know how to do it well by the time they are ready to use it as a diagnostic tool. I think maybe in her lecture, she was speaking to people who haven't been doing diagramming at all since most grammar programs don't seem to include it. She would recommend that you get started with it in the middle grades if you haven't already.

 

Anyone else have a thought?

 

I think you're right on all those points! I'm thinking that her lectures were geared to people who would like to know in general how to teach writing, possibly without needing a formal program, and would like to know the general techniques and timelines, etc.. But possibly then that WWE and FLL 3 and up do get into a little more advanced teaching, just because the leading up to that ability (copying a poem or diagraming) has been folded in there? I never thought about these differences - interesting questions, prairie rose! (and this is why I look forward to when WWS is done, so I can see what specific teaching I am not doing right now, which I am sure there is some!)

[prairie rose]

Thank you ladies for your thoughts. One reason I asked is because my 10yo struggles with copying poetry but can copy normal sentences just fine. I also had a problem with my oldest child trying to teach him diagramming in 4th grade. He just didn't get it until we tried again in 5th grade which is why I worried about teaching it to a 3rd grader. I've held off teaching diagramming with my next two kids but I'm looking at using WWE and FLL from the beginning with my 4th child when she is old enough (or possibly MCT...still kinda looking around) I didn't want to get to FLL 3 and have to hold off because of the diagramming. Who knows maybe she won't have a problem with it in 3rd grade if we've done FLL since 1st grade.

 

Thanks again. ;)

[prairie rose]

oh, one more thing, is there any speculation as to how long it will be before WWS is published? I know it probably won't be out before my oldest can use it but I'm hoping that my current 9 and 10yo will be able to use it. ;)

[Colleen in NS]

oh, one more thing, is there any speculation as to how long it will be before WWS is published? I know it probably won't be out before my oldest can use it but I'm hoping that my current 9 and 10yo will be able to use it. ;)

 

Some posters here are testing the 5th grade level of it, I believe. That gives me hope, but I have no clue. We'll all know when PHP or SWB announces it. :D

[Ann.without.an.e]

Brain freeze....what is SWB? :tongue_smilie:

[Capt_Uhura]

SWB=Susan Wise Bauer

[ABQmom]

One thing that helped me with teaching diagramming with the younger grades--3rd and 4th-- was FLL 3. Before FLL 3 was published, we used Rod and Staff which teaches simple diagramming in 3rd grade. One difference between the two that I discovered is that FLL 3 gives the student the diagram frame, and they fill it in. That made it so much easier for my pencil phobic son! So, I draw the frames for my kids in the beginning or if they are learning to diagram something difficult. It helps until they grasp the concept and can draw the frame on their own.

[Ann.without.an.e]

SWB=Susan Wise Bauer

 

 

Yes!! Talk about a brain freeze :ohmy:

[prairie rose]

One thing that helped me with teaching diagramming with the younger grades--3rd and 4th-- was FLL 3. Before FLL 3 was published, we used Rod and Staff which teaches simple diagramming in 3rd grade. One difference between the two that I discovered is that FLL 3 gives the student the diagram frame, and they fill it in. That made it so much easier for my pencil phobic son! So, I draw the frames for my kids in the beginning or if they are learning to diagram something difficult. It helps until they grasp the concept and can draw the frame on their own.

 

It wasn't so much the drawing of the frame, I drew all his frames for him, it was pulling the sentence apart. He could parse the sentence just fine but he had trouble when you asked him to put each part on the diagram. He just could not grasp the idea of moving words around but a year later he was fine with it. :001_huh:

[Sahamamama]

It wasn't so much the drawing of the frame, I drew all his frames for him, it was pulling the sentence apart. He could parse the sentence just fine but he had trouble when you asked him to put each part on the diagram. He just could not grasp the idea of moving words around but a year later he was fine with it. :001_huh:

 

:iagree:And I think this is why SWB recommends NOT going with a grammar program that only has the student label the sentence, rather than actually diagram it. The diagramming is the next step, and it's harder.

[ABQmom]

It wasn't so much the drawing of the frame, I drew all his frames for him, it was pulling the sentence apart. He could parse the sentence just fine but he had trouble when you asked him to put each part on the diagram. He just could not grasp the idea of moving words around but a year later he was fine with it. :001_huh:

 

Interesting! I can see where a child could have that difficulty.