Rod & Staff writing enough for high school?

[Libby in Texas]

If I follow the WTM recommendation of using Rod & Staff 7 for 9th, R&S 8 for 10th, and so on, would my dc get enough writing instruction & practice? Or do I have this wrong? We've used R&S since the 3rd grade level and my children are thriving. This year they are in 9th & 10th grades and happen to be in the same levels as WTM recommends. I'm just wondering if I need to bring in more instruction, practice, or both from somewhere else (like maybe Wordsmith). Both my kids are strong in their grammar & writing having used just R&S. I'm using something else for literature & vocabulary, but somehow the writing/grammar part doesn't seem enough.

 

I'm running errands all day today. I'm hoping that when I check in later today someone will please be kind and have mercy on this confused mother. KWIM? TIA

 

Blessings,

 

Libby in Texas :)

 

Mama to ~ ~ ~

 

3 lovely, delightful daughters and 1 sweet, chivalrous son!!

[Joan in GE]

If I follow the WTM recommendation of using Rod & Staff 7 for 9th, R&S 8 for 10th, and so on, would my dc get enough writing instruction & practice? Or do I have this wrong? We've used R&S since the 3rd grade level and my children are thriving. This year they are in 9th & 10th grades and happen to be in the same levels as WTM recommends. I'm just wondering if I need to bring in more instruction, practice, or both from somewhere else (like maybe Wordsmith). Both my kids are strong in their grammar & writing having used just R&S. I'm using something else for literature & vocabulary, but somehow the writing/grammar part doesn't seem enough.

 

 

If I got this right, they are then doing R&S 7 and R&S 8? And then you are planning on doing 9 and 10 in 11th and 12th grades?

 

Personally I would not think that is enough to do things like timed SAT essays and college applications.

 

My ds finished R&S 10 in 10th grade and used a Bravewriter course to gear up for the SAT. He also took Advanced Composition with Rebekah Randolph (ne Wilhelm). And I think those helped with in depth and timed writing....His grammar is great (usually) and I owe that to R&S.

 

Our experience FWIW,

Joan

[Denise Allen]

I came on here to ask about this same topic. We have used Abeka language from the beginning- my oldest is now 8th grade. I am looking at Rod & Staff because their writing exercises are better (from what I hear).

 

I too am curious about using it with my kids next year. They will be 9th and 8th grade then.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions for the first poster and myself? What do you think about R & S for the upper grades??

[MomsintheGarden]

I have used R&S for years. I think it is a wonderful grammar program, and use it for 3rd-10th, on grade level. I also like and have my dc do most of the writing exercises. We tend to skip the letters, book reports and poetry writing in favor of literary analysis and just poetry analysis (which is quite good in R&S).

 

I use more writing in addition to R&S. We've tried (many!) other programs with good results, but I always seem to have to most success using Susan Wise Bauer's suggestions. A good place to start for ideas is The Well-Trained Mind, and even more I highly recommend that you purchase and download SWB's three lectures on writing, and one lecture on literary analysis. I listened to these a couple of times each this summer, and took notes. It was time and money well spent. While I always recommend buying SWB's WTM to support our website hostess, you can borrow it from the library. The lectures only cost $16 for all. SWB recommends other resources for writing in the WTM and her lectures, but these are all reusable and not terribly expensive.

 

GardenMom

Edited September 14, 2010 by MomsintheGarden

[Denise Allen]

I have used R&S for years. I think it is a wonderful grammar program, and use it for 3rd-10th, on grade level. I also like and have my dc do most of the writing exercises. We tend to skip the book reports and poetry writing in favor of literary analysis and just poetry analysis (which is quite good in R&S).

 

I use more writing in addition to R&S. We've tried (many!) other programs with good results, but I always seem to have to most success using Susan Wise Bauer's suggestions. A good place to start for ideas is The Well-Trained Mind, and even more I highly recommend that you purchase and download SWB's three lectures on writing, and one lecture on literary analysis. I listened to these a couple of times each this summer, and took notes. It was time and money well spent. While I always recommend buying SWB's WTM to support our website hostess, you can borrow it from the library. The lectures only cost $16 for all. SWB recommends other resources for writing in the WTM and her lectures, but these are all reusable and not terribly expensive.

 

GardenMom

 

Are these lectures on Mp3 only?? My mp3 player is not working and I would so like to listen to these w/out buying another one right now.

 

My daughter is 8th grade this year (great in grammar), by son is 7th (decent in grammar). If I were to switch them to R & Staff what book would you suggest they start in? It would be nice if they could work from the same book. Not sure if that would be possible.

[Ellie]

There's a truckload of writing in the 9th and 10th grade texts. I can't imagine requiring more than that.

[MomsintheGarden]

Are these lectures on Mp3 only?? My mp3 player is not working and I would so like to listen to these w/out buying another one right now.

 

Yes, they are only Mp3. I just listened to them on my laptop while I folded laundry (7 dc = lots of time to do that!). I kept paper & pencil, plus the outlines found here handy:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/workshops-handouts/

I printed out the Writing without Fear and Literary Analysis handouts. You can take notes right on them or create your own separate outline. I also made a printout of all SWB's lit analysis questions for each of my dc's writing notebooks. When it's lit analysis time, they can refer to these. I spent some time going over what's expected first, and coach/teach as necessary.

 

My daughter is 8th grade this year (great in grammar), by son is 7th (decent in grammar). If I were to switch them to R & Staff what book would you suggest they start in? It would be nice if they could work from the same book. Not sure if that would be possible.

 

I switched my two oldest (one decent, one great in grammar:)) from ABeka to R&S grammar in 7th and 9th. They went right into their own grade-level-appropriate R&S book with no problem. It's hard to know how to address your situation, but I personally would not put your 8th great-in-grammar in the same book as your 7th decent-in-grammar. R&S is very inexpensive, especially if you buy 2nds in their half-price sale at the beginning of October. I bought most of our materials that way. Just call R&S directly (606-522-4348) now to find out when it begins, and call early in the day on the first day of the sale. You might get a great deal. The books are barely damaged - it's unbelievable. Keep in mind that they don't always have everything as 2nds. Their shipping is reasonable and fast. There are other companies that call themselves R&S, but this is the direct number to the publisher.

 

I buy these items for each grade:

1 Student Text

1 TM

1 Worksheets Book for each student (These are for only about 1/3-1/2 of the lessons. We usually do these instead of the Written Exercises & Review Exercises. This makes it easier to transition from the write-in-the-book ABeka to the write-on-your-own-paper R&S)

1 Tests Book for each student

 

R&S scheduling is simple. We do grammar Mon.-Thurs. for about 34 weeks. I have schedules for grades 3-10 in MS Word. If you want any, just PM me with your email address and a list of the ones you want.

 

Blessings,

GardenMom

[Denise Allen]

Thanks GardenMom! Your info was very helpful!! This is such a hard decision for me! I appreciate your information about the sale.

[Denise Allen]

Yes, they are only Mp3. I just listened to them on my laptop while I folded laundry (7 dc = lots of time to do that!). I kept paper & pencil, plus the outlines found here handy:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/workshops-handouts/

 

GardenMom

 

I am slow when it comes to computers, etc. So I could download the Mp3 lectures to my computer and just listen from there?

[Colleen in NS]

A good place to start for ideas is The Well-Trained Mind, and even more I highly recommend that you purchase and download SWB's three lectures on writing, and one lecture on literary analysis. I listened to these a couple of times each this summer, and took notes. It was time and money well spent. While I always recommend buying SWB's WTM to support our website hostess, you can borrow it from the library. The lectures only cost $16 for all. SWB recommends other resources for writing in the WTM and her lectures, but these are all reusable and not terribly expensive.

 

GardenMom

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

If you can get these four lectures, you can get a complete understanding of how to proceed with the whole business of writing. And my impression of the high school lecture especially, is that she emphasizes the rhetoric study over the high school R&S writing exercises. The lectures will tell you of a few books you can use to study rhetoric writing techniques, and how to use these books. I love R&S for grammar, and we also go over the writing lessons in it, but I tend to focus more on the writing techniques that SWB talks about, and will also do so when my kids reach high school and rhetoric study.

[Denise Allen]

Thanks! I will purchase them & try to listen off my computer since my mp3 player is broken. I have SWB's Writing With Ease. I appreciate the ideas for younger children- I just need more guidance with the upper grades.

 

Thanks again!

[Denise Allen]

By the way, this group is great! I have gotten so much help from everyone, and I appreciate it!

[Denise Allen]

Just downloaded and can't wait to listen!

[Libby in Texas]

Gosh thanks everyone for jumping in! So far though only one person directly answered my question about whether or not R&S alone is enough for writing instruction/practice in hs. My dc are planning on going to college so I definitely want them to be more than up-to-par on their writing. So any more want to answer, please? What would be a good way to round out the writing if more is needed?

 

Joan in Geneva, yes you are correct that my freshman is on schedule to do the 7th grade level, and my sophomore is on schedule to do the 8th grade level this year. I have never heard of the Bravewriter course your son took but I'll look into it. Would that be a good course to bring in on the side to beef up the writing? I guess I could have the kiddos do both R&S and Bravewriter (or something else) alongside each other. Do you think it would work?

 

Thanks everyone for your input. As usual someone always comes through on this board! And yes I am definitely also looking into SWB audio lectures. Anyone know if her suggestions are easy to implement? Sorry. I don't mean to sound ignorant or stupid but all I have so far is her book. Thanks again everyone!

 

Blessings,

~Libby in Texas :)

[FaithManor]

We use Abeka for high school grammar. We don't use the composition part I don't personally think that either of these texts really prepare a person for expository writing/rhetorical stage.

 

I didn't know SWB had lectures out there on that particular subject so with DD I made a lot of my own assignments, plus The Elegant Essay and Classical Rhetoric with Aristotle by Memoria Press. Classical Rhetoric was a heady subject and quite challenging for DD but it greatly improved her ability to argue and defend both in conversation and on paper.

 

In the younger grades, we do use Rod and Staff. I think they do a good job of explaining paragraph writing, etc. My children have developed solid beginning writing skills from R & S.

 

I'm going to check out those SWB lectures just to make sure we've been on the right track. DD is doing quite well in her medical studies but because she was going into the medical profession, we focused on research writing and rhetorical skills almost to the exclusion of other types of writing. Ds is a natural born novelist and as such, will need to do much more literary analysis. This is something I need some more coaching on.

 

Faith

[Denise Allen]

Gosh thanks everyone for jumping in! So far though only one person directly answered my question about whether or not R&S alone is enough for writing instruction/practice in hs. My dc are planning on going to college so I definitely want them to be more than up-to-par on their writing. So any more want to answer, please? What would be a good way to round out the writing if more is needed?

 

Joan in Geneva, yes you are correct that my freshman is on schedule to do the 7th grade level, and my sophomore is on schedule to do the 8th grade level this year. I have never heard of the Bravewriter course your son took but I'll look into it. Would that be a good course to bring in on the side to beef up the writing? I guess I could have the kiddos do both R&S and Bravewriter (or something else) alongside each other. Do you think it would work?

 

Thanks everyone for your input. As usual someone always comes through on this board! And yes I am definitely also looking into SWB audio lectures. Anyone know if her suggestions are easy to implement? Sorry. I don't mean to sound ignorant or stupid but all I have so far is her book. Thanks again everyone!

 

Blessings,

~Libby in Texas :)

 

Sorry, Libby. I think I rather hijacked your post. I got so excited when I saw someone had just posted about Rod & Staff as I am looking to purchase it...

[Colleen in NS]

So far though only one person directly answered my question about whether or not R&S alone is enough for writing instruction/practice in hs. My dc are planning on going to college so I definitely want them to be more than up-to-par on their writing. So any more want to answer, please? What would be a good way to round out the writing if more is needed?

 

yes I am definitely also looking into SWB audio lectures. Anyone know if her suggestions are easy to implement?

 

I don't have a high schooler yet, so I can't speak from experience. However, I attended all of SWB's writing/lit. analysis lectures (that we are talking about here) last year at a conference, and her way of explaining the whole process made more sense to me than any of the commonly used writing programs currently out there. So my remarks are coming from an admiration of her explanations and methods. I am currently working on grammar stage and logic stage writing with my kids, and it's going well with using her explanations/resources, so I plan to continue her ideas/resources for high school.

 

I think there are different ways you could approach the whole process. You could use the R&S writing exercises alone, as long as you then take what is learned and apply it "across the curriculum" in some kind of consistent manner, over and over again so that your child gets practice. This is what I did when my oldest was in grades 3 or 4 (along with narrations/dictations). Or you could take SWB's suggestions for high school (as long as the previous skills of outlining/rewriting from an outline are up to par), and have your child write a couple of one-page persuasive essays per week, and incorporate into these writings some skills from the R&S writing lessons that seem to be applicable to persuasive writing. Or incorporate into the writings the skills gained from SWB's rec'd. rhetoric study. BTW, the rhetoric studies she recommends have a huge variety of writing exercises - far more than R&S.

 

My memory of this is getting foggy now, but I do remember either myself asking or someone else at the lectures asking SWB about using R&S writing exercises along with her suggested techniques, and she pretty much said they aren't necessary or that it's up to the parent - if the parent feels they will help, incorporate them. But I don't think she felt they were necessary.

 

After listening to all those sessions, I felt that her way of doing things was much simpler and more effective: learn to put thoughts into words and words onto paper, then learn to outline - one level at a time, then learn to rewrite from 3-level outlines, then learn to write your own persuasive papers, with the help of spelling/grammar/logic/rhetoric studies. She gave very concrete guidelines on how to carry this all out. And definitely made me feel as though I *can* do this, whereas before I didn't have a clue how.

 

$16 for those four lectures is WELL worth it - you get knowledge on how to teach writing for all 12 years of a child's formal education.

 

hth

 

P.S. About college prep - she was speaking from the perspective of a college English professor, as well as a homeschool Mom. She also told us that if our high schoolers could at least know how to outline from a book and rewrite from that outline, they would be doing much better than many of her college freshmen!! Yet she also showed us how to go beyond that for our high schoolers, so they would be more confident in college writing and life beyond.

 

P.S. one more time, lol! She also strongly rec'd. continuing grammar study in high school, so even if you buy R&S 9/10 and just use it for grammar and not so much for the writing exercises, it'll still be worth it.

[Denise Allen]

Does anyone know if her suggestions for rhetoric in the 3rd edition are the same as the suggestions in the 2nd edition? I only have the 2nd. I am wondering if I should get the newest edition?

 

Thanks, Colleen! I spend about an hour last night reading more tagged posts on this topic and read many helpful ones from you. Thanks for all your great advice on here!

[Colleen in NS]

Does anyone know if her suggestions for rhetoric in the 3rd edition are the same as the suggestions in the 2nd edition? I only have the 2nd. I am wondering if I should get the newest edition?

 

Thanks, Colleen! I spend about an hour last night reading more tagged posts on this topic and read many helpful ones from you. Thanks for all your great advice on here!

 

You're welcome.

 

I'm pretty sure the 3rd ed. suggestions are the same as the 2nd. The lectures, though, have an additional recommendation, but it's a book she couldn't bring herself to recommend in print (new WTM), because she says the examples in it are awful, even though the teaching is good. :lol: She just didn't want a printed rec of it out there for another 5 years until she makes a 4th edition of WTM.

[Joan in GE]

Joan in Geneva, yes you are correct that my freshman is on schedule to do the 7th grade level, and my sophomore is on schedule to do the 8th grade level this year. I have never heard of the Bravewriter course your son took but I'll look into it. Would that be a good course to bring in on the side to beef up the writing? I guess I could have the kiddos do both R&S and Bravewriter (or something else) alongside each other. Do you think it would work?

 

I do first have to agree about the SWB lectures. They are very helpful. And I really like R&S and am using it for my dd.

 

But then it depends on how comfortable you are grading writing and how much time you have. I had Critical Writing in university, but that did not make me feel comfortable with grading my son's writing. So there I have to disagree with Susan. She says you can do it, but she is a person who does it all the time and might not realize what I have trouble with (and maybe some others).

 

It depends on the type of person you are, eg Renaissance Woman (I hope you don't mind me holding you up as that Garden Mom - I mean it as a compliment) who can do all kinds of classes in all kinds of subjects or like me, very unsure of myself and not talented at grading AND without enough time to do it well.

 

And that is where outside grading comes in if you are in my shoes. Bravewriter can be done in different ways. Eg. ds took a SAT prep class just for the month of June. But there are courses that are year long. I did find it pricey. Rebekah's courses (Laurel Tree Tutorials) are also year long and ds wrote well for her. (He did her course in 9th grade in addition to Eng I for 1 credit each as we did a lot for the Eng I and he did a lot of writing for Rebekah). The Bravewriter helped with the timed essay part where you have to write on a prompt that is given to you suddenly. It depends how many other credits they are doing and what weight (importance) you want to give writing. My ds has greatly appreciated having others motivate and grade him.

 

If you are like Garden Mom, you can organize this yourself. Search her posts (MomsintheGarden) with timed or writing (or some related words) and she gives all kinds of hints about teaching writing.

 

Joan

Edited September 15, 2010 by Joan in Geneva

[Libby in Texas]

Denise Allen, it's ok! I understand, believe me :). I too had wanted this answered for a while and I kept waiting and waiting so I finally just asked! Great discussion ladies! Yippee!! Colleen thank you so much for your input. Everyone's posts are helping me more than you realize. So sweet!! I'm taking anything and everything everyone says into consideration so please, purty please post away! (Yeah I know that's not how to spell pretty. See? LOL)

 

Blessings,

~Libby in Texas :)

[Joan in GE]

Does anyone know if her suggestions for rhetoric in the 3rd edition are the same as the suggestions in the 2nd edition?

 

I've just checked my 2nd and 3rd versions. There are some changes in what she recommends for 11th and 12th schedules. Partly she recommends going to the Rhetoric pages and those changes are reflected in her tapes.

 

Libby, I just posted answers to your other questions while you were posting, just in case you didn't go back to review.

 

What I did note is that the normal is to do 9th in 9th grade and 10th in 10th grade. Doing 7th grade R&S in 9th is the schedule for if you are just beginning to use R&S and she discusses it in relation to grammar. And then her schedule recs don't really match with that as she mentions nothing about R&S in 11th and 12th for the people who were doing 7 and 8, I think presuming that people have already finished it. She does say to do all the composition exercises in R&S even in the 3rd edition.

 

I don't know if it would be worth buying the 3rd book if you are buying her lectures. But it does look like you are missing out if you are only doing the R&S composition exercises for writing for 11th and 12th from her perspective as well.

 

This is a little confusing, but even if you go back and read your 2nd version, it will help somewhat as she doesn't address the 7 - 8 th issue there either.

 

ETA - I was interchanging the two of you in this post. Hope it can be sorted out and sorry!

 

Joan

Edited September 14, 2010 by Joan in Geneva

[Denise Allen]

Thank you Joan! I just finished listening to the Middle school lecture. VERY helpful! I realize a good bit of it is in her book, but somehow hearing it is more helpful. lol

[Denise Allen]

For those of you that use Rod & Staff-

 

I understand they cover diagramming quite a bit (which I like). Currently we use Abeka which covers it too, pretty well.

 

One thing I am looking for (not sure if even R & S does this) is a book/text that actually explains diagramming. I mean more about how to use it as a diagnostic- if your sentence isn't right, how you can use diagramming to help solve it. Am I making sense??

 

My kids can diagram well, I just want them to learn how to actually apply it to their writing. That is the one thing I feel Abeka is lacking. Maybe they all lack this, and you need an English/Grammar teacher.... lol

 

COLLEEN- can you answer this??? :D

[Colleen in NS]

So there I have to disagree with Susan. She says you can do it, but she is a person who does it all the time and might not realize what I have trouble with (and maybe some others). She can probably teach her kids to write in her sleep. It comes naturally.

 

I think she did mention in the lectures (and here is where I do not know what actually made it onto the audios - but I know she talked about it in person at the conf.) that there are plenty of people who do not feel confident evaluating writing. She recommends that parents find a tutor/college professor/online evaluator for help in these situations. She does want to help parents learn to teach if they want to learn, but she also wants parents to know where to go for help if they don't feel confident tackling the teaching/evaluating.

 

And then her schedule recs don't really match with that as she mentions nothing about R&S in 11th and 12th for the people who were doing 7 and 8, I think presuming that people have already finished it.

 

In the 2nd edition, I think she suggests using a grammar workbook for review for grades 11 and 12, if R&S 9 and 10 were done in grades 9 and 10. I would assume that since those workbooks are just review (since she thinks it's important to keep grammar fresh all through high school), she'd recommend keeping on with books 9 and 10 in grades 11 and 12, if grades 9 and 10 were spent on books 7 and 8 (phew!). I think the whole idea is to keep on doing some type of grammar practice, whether it's a grammar program, grammar review workbooks, or the R&S handbook, which I think is rec'd in the 3rd ed.?

 

She does say to do all the composition exercises in R&S even in the 3rd edition.

 

I was confused about that, too, since the 3rd ed. came out just as the conf. was being put on where the lectures were recorded. But after that specific question in the lectures, for me, her lectures trump what's written in the book, and I chalk that up to "it's a small detail she probably didn't think about attending to when revising the book."

 

I examined the R&S 9/10 writing exercises, and compared them to what would be learned in her rhetoric recs. I think everything that is covered in R&S will be covered in the rhetoric recs. So rhetoric would be my preference, with looking at R&S occasionally if I needed another perspective or explanation, since I'll be using the R&S grammar anyway.

 

Off topic: A couple of weeks ago, I picked up the copies you mailed to me - thank you so much! I'm going to leave positive feedback for you in a few minutes, now that I've thought of it!

 

I mean more about how to use it as a diagnostic- if your sentence isn't right, how you can use diagramming to help solve it. Am I making sense??

 

I think it's explained in the middle grade lecture - if not, I heard it in her older writing lecture. What I do, basically, with ds' narrations now, is if a sentence sounds awkward, I tell him to diagram it. He knows how to diagram, so if he can't diagram it (I watch him, to make sure he's doing it correctly - R&S teaches you to find the simple predicate first, then simple subject, then adjectives, and so on), then it is grammatically incorrect. If it's incorrect, then he needs to figure out a different way to word things, so that it's grammatically correct. We talk about what the grammar problem is, so he can fix the sentence. If he needs help, I help him figure out different phrasings until he says, "YES! That's what I meant!" Diagraming is great for correcting writing, because it really makes you think about exactly what you want to say! Just try it out next time you find an awkward sounding sentence - there is a reason it is awkward, and diagraming will reveal why. Oh, and I should say that I only have him fix sentences that have mistakes he already understands the grammar of - if we get into something we haven't studied yet, we just simplify the sentence or change it. No use trying to do something more elaborate than we are ready for.

 

hth, and please don't diagram any of my sentences - I KNOW some of them are very awkward! LOL (on the other hand, you could get some good practice in....)

[Denise Allen]

Thanks again, Colleen! I want to make sure I have this right- do you plan to have your children do the 9th & 10th Rod and Staff at the same time as the rhetoric suggestions by SWB?

 

I did look at the R & S 9-10th book samples online and liked what I saw.

 

I promise- I will bug you no more! ;)

[Colleen in NS]

Thanks again, Colleen! I want to make sure I have this right- do you plan to have your children do the 9th & 10th Rod and Staff at the same time as the rhetoric suggestions by SWB?

 

I did look at the R & S 9-10th book samples online and liked what I saw.

 

I promise- I will bug you no more! ;)

 

Aw, you're not bugging me. :D

 

One thing before I forget - since you listened to the middle grade lecture, you might want to track down a library/friend copy of WTM 3rd edition - it has EXCELLENT "how to outline" instructions in it - way better than previous editions, IMO. She recommends an outlining book or two, but to me, her instructions in the 3rd ed. are enough.

 

I plan to have my 9th and 10th graders do R&S 9 and 10 *for grammar* during those years, and yes, I plan to have them start going through the rhetoric suggestions in 9th grade. The rhetoric study + persuasive papers will be our "writing program" for those years, with my occasional peek at the R&S *writing lessons*.

 

Another thing that just popped into my brain. SWB also mentioned that different kids will progress through the rhetoric suggestions at different paces, and most kids will not even get to the Corbett (the last rec) book - it's college level. They could end up spending all four years on the first two or three books out of the four lecture-rec'd. rhetoric books, and that would be just fine, as long as they are practicing each week what they ARE learning, and are keeping fresh in grammar. Again, not my experience yet, but in my plans....which are always subject to tweaking....but it's the general direction in which I want to go. I know others here have used similar plans and have had success.

[Denise Allen]

Aw, you're not bugging me. :D

 

One thing before I forget - since you listened to the middle grade lecture, you might want to track down a library/friend copy of WTM 3rd edition - it has EXCELLENT "how to outline" instructions in it - way better than previous editions, IMO. She recommends an outlining book or two, but to me, her instructions in the 3rd ed. are enough.

 

I plan to have my 9th and 10th graders do R&S 9 and 10 *for grammar* during those years, and yes, I plan to have them start going through the rhetoric suggestions in 9th grade. The rhetoric study + persuasive papers will be our "writing program" for those years, with my occasional peek at the R&S *writing lessons*.

 

Another thing that just popped into my brain. SWB also mentioned that different kids will progress through the rhetoric suggestions at different paces, and most kids will not even get to the Corbett (the last rec) book - it's college level. They could end up spending all four years on the first two or three books out of the four lecture-rec'd. rhetoric books, and that would be just fine, as long as they are practicing each week what they ARE learning, and are keeping fresh in grammar. Again, not my experience yet, but in my plans....which are always subject to tweaking....but it's the general direction in which I want to go. I know others here have used similar plans and have had success.

 

Funny you mention that- I just spend an hour in Barnes and Noble looking through the 3rd edition. I wrote down some notes, but I will probably end up buying the book. The spine on my 2nd edition is breaking anyway from wear and tear...

 

I am now headed to listen to the high school writing lecture. :)

So glad you suggested them and told this computer dummy that I could listen from my computer...:blush:

[Colleen in NS]

So glad you suggested them and told this computer dummy that I could listen from my computer...:blush:

 

I was simply agreeing with GardenMom's suggestion about the lectures. And I believe you figured out the computer part by yourself, with GardenMom's help, too! :D Enjoy!

[Joan in GE]

I think she did mention in the lectures (and here is where I do not know what actually made it onto the audios - but I know she talked about it in person at the conf.) that there are plenty of people who do not feel confident evaluating writing. She recommends that parents find a tutor/college professor/online evaluator for help in these situations. She does want to help parents learn to teach if they want to learn, but she also wants parents to know where to go for help if they don't feel confident tackling the teaching/evaluating.

 

You are right that she talks about those services, but in the same lecture she says that we can do it and makes the process sound oversimplified, and that was the part that I was remembering. So I was wrong as it was at least a partial misrepresentation.

 

But, I think there is a big difference between just having the final product assessed and having the process overseen by an outside person (for myself at least) or a person who can really motivate in the writing area. Eg. if mom cannot give a lot of feedback in the drafting stage, then the product that is sent to Cindy Marsh is not going to be that great. At least I would have been ashamed to have sent in some of my ds's work and just couldn't seem to motivate him to write more. Eg. He had to do a 10 page paper for Rebekah and it was partly because of her standards and the relationship that he had developed with her that motivated him to work so many hours into the night for so many days....different teachers motivate in different ways and different moms as well...

 

Thanks for the feedback Colleen.:001_smile:

 

Joan

[Colleen in NS]

I think there is a big difference between just having the final product assessed and having the process overseen by an outside person

 

:iagree: It does seem like it's better to have one person (parent or outside person) to supervise the whole thing from start to finish. That way the supervisor can determine whether or not the goals of the assignment were met.