Thanks!

[LibraryLover]

Good info!

[HollyinNNV]

I do not think being at the Rhetoric stage implies being ready to deal with mature/sensitive/depressing topics. I think it has more to do with the ability to think critically/analyze/sythesize/evaluate material.

 

Personally, I do not want to spend time on Anne Frank either. My family went to D.C. in Feb and I just about raced through the Holocaust museum. I was actually doing ok until we got to the way the Nazis treated children-especially special needs children. At that point I did a pretty quick scan through the building. *I* know my limits and it seems your dd does too.

 

In the past, as a student, it has been my job to study the Holocaust. I did it. I didn't like it. I don't think I really learned about it fully until 9th grade.

 

I don't know your dd's age, but it seems to be a coping mechanism to say that none of the kids were harmed. I'm not sure if that is a healthy mechanism, but it sure seems to be her way. I guess that how much she used the mechanism and her age would help you decide how worried to be.

 

I think that you can still pick rhetoric age materials. Just go with themes that are less depressing.

[LibraryLover]

Thanks.

[JennW in SoCal]

I was just about to hit "submit" on a long post about sensitivity, when I peeked at the recent additions to the thread, and I see that you are talking less about sensitivity and more about "intellectual maturity". So here's my short soap-box about rhetoric stage:)

 

I think rhetoric level analysis is an issue tied to maturity. Just because the WTM labels the 9th-12th grades as the "Rhetoric Stage" doesn't mean your child will be ready for that kind of analysis in 9th grade, just as not every child is reading fluently by 1st grade nor is every child able to grasp algebra at 8th grade. It doesn't mean you don't strive for a deeper level of analysis as you definitely keep prodding them along to dig a little more into a text, to think harder and longer. You just can't expect it to flip on like a mental switch at a particular age.

 

You don't say how old your dd is. In my experience there is a quantum leap in intellectual maturity between the ages of 14 and 16-17. These brains of these poor kids are partially shut down because of the hormone surges of puberty -- my sister-in-law calls them "walking brain stems"!

 

Do you have a copy of the Well Educated Mind? Rhetoric level analysis is also a skill that has to be developed, and I really like how this book breaks literary analysis into simple steps designed to take you deeper and deeper into a work. Use that, or something similar, and you're dd will eventually be thinking and analyzing with the best of them. It may not happen until she is 20, but that's ok!!

 

I have to add that my 16yo son, who is a WWII buff and knows all about the realities of the holocaust, is someone who gets ripped apart by tragic literature. Can't handle it at all, so I am really careful about what I choose to assign.

[LibraryLover]

Thank you. I would love to have read your post on sensitivity.

[Laura in OH]

It doesn't mean you don't strive for a deeper level of analysis as you definitely keep prodding them along to dig a little more into a text, to think harder and longer. You just can't expect it to flip on like a mental switch at a particular age.

 

I totally agree with JennW. My 14yo dd is just starting to "put it all together". Most of the time she just reads and understands the facts, more often she will ask "why", and every once in a while the light goes on and she sees the connection. I think also, as in the case with the holocaust, she understands enough to draw a conclusion. She doesn't need several specific examples, with pictures, of the evil that was Nazi Germany. It was evil. It should never be repeated. Here is what led to that evil. She gets it.

 

Just as you start a beginning-reader with phonics and not chapter books, we need to lead our logic-age dc into their rhetoric stage at their own pace. I'm sorry to say I don't think anyone ever led me into the rhetoric stage. I mean, I matured into it but I was not taught how to put all of the pieces together. TWTM and TWED are helping me to give my dd more tools to do that.

[Cathy in TX]

My son is like that. He is younger at 11, but is extremely bothered by the thought of people suffering. This is the child that can play Halo 3 with nary a worry. But have him watch the movies "Amazing Grace" or "Luther" or even "Idol Gives Back" and he has nightmares for days. I really have to monitor what he watches and reads. "Amazing Grace" was a surprise, because it implies the slave children died from getting too close to the sugar cane fires rather than going into detail . L was appalled that I had him watch it, though. When asked why this bothers him and fictional movies/games do not, L said, "Because I know it really happened to those people." So here we are, ready to study modern history with all its wars. I think it is going to be a very factual treatment of it for L.

 

The good thing about this personality is that this child is always ready to defend the underdog. God gave these kids this personality to remind the rest of us not to become complacent and accepting of the ugliness of this world. I'm thankful for the reminder.

 

Cathy

[Nan in Mass]

It is hard to tell without knowing your daughter, but I think this is just a sensitivity issue. There is a lot of rhetoric stage stuff that a very sensitive person just isn't going to do. To do it means having to live with a lot of haunting stuff in your head that will make it much, much harder to keep your chin above water emotionally. Think of being sensitive as a handicap. If you are built this way, there are things that you just aren't going to be able to do without injuring yourself. Normal life is hard enough. There was a post recently on the accelerated board about this. You might look for it. You might find it comforting. Have you seen my posts about doing scifi instead of depressing 20th century lit? We're selecting our literature very carefully, not just because my children can't cope, but because *I* can't, either. History and a lot of literature (which is history written in a more emotionally wrenching and therefore worse way) isn't going to be a happy subject for someone built like this. You might have to pick the most dry and boring textbook you can find and NOT enhance it with primary sources from any wars. Go for the daily living stuff, instead.

 

I remember reading and liking Anne Frank, but it was as a growing up story. I completely ostriched the rest of the picture. My two older ones were unable to do that as well as I could and hated the book. I'm not going to make my younger one read it. He is aware of the basics of the Holocaust and is as horrified as one could wish over them. I'm not going to burden him with the details or make him live through it by reading a real journal. If we were more robust, I would, but for us, it would just lead to depression and anger and an even worse wish not to grow up, all of which are bad enough during our teen years. As I said - we are handicapped.

 

I vote you just select carefully and focus on non-emotional issues. As her parent, you need to correct her if you see she has gotten something wrong, but you can do it without burdening her with the details. For example, with the children, you could just say that the Nazis did horrible things to many people, including children, and it is a good thing they were stopped, and leave it at that. If you want to explore something deeper and work on cross-links and implications and all that, maybe you can do it with science (but not environmental disaster stuff - equally depressing) or with a more remote aspect of history, like migration patterns or the development of different languages or something.

 

I think you are brave to bring it up. It always worries me to discuss this here, too. Definately makes me feel inadequate.

 

Good luck!

-Nan

[Michelle in MO]

are not set in stone, kwim? They're fairly fluid, and I would say that some kids could be at the rhetoric stage in one area of their development, but at the grammar stage in other areas, perhaps!

 

I would agree with Holly in NNV; the whole topic of Anne Frank and dealing with the Holocaust is depressing for many people, even adults. My oldest daughter read the book Hiroshima by John Hershey and really struggles with the ethics of whether or not the US was truly justified with dropping the atomic bomb. Graphic descriptions of children suffering horrendously really bothered her. I studied the Holocaust extensively in college, and just studying the topic was very depressing for me.

 

Personally, I do not want to spend time on Anne Frank either. My family went to D.C. in Feb and I just about raced through the Holocaust museum. I was actually doing ok until we got to the way the Nazis treated children-especially special needs children. At that point I did a pretty quick scan through the building. *I* know my limits and it seems your dd does too.

 

In the past, as a student, it has been my job to study the Holocaust. I did it. I didn't like it. I don't think I really learned about it fully until 9th grade.

 

I don't know your dd's age, but it seems to be a coping mechanism to say that none of the kids were harmed. I'm not sure if that is a healthy mechanism, but it sure seems to be her way. I guess that how much she used the mechanism and her age would help you decide how worried to be.

 

I think that you can still pick rhetoric age materials. Just go with themes that are less depressing.

 

Challenge her at the level she's at: if she's still at the logic stage, that's fine; she'll grow into the rhetoric stage eventually.

[LibraryLover]

Thanks.

[Nan in Mass]

My middle son, who can't bear things that are depressing, peacewalks. It isn't that my son doesn't know about all the awful stuff, or can't figure it out what awful things might happen/probably happened from a few bare facts; it is that it upsets him enough that he has trouble functioning to dwell there. In fact, he is so upset about it that he is willing to dwell there if he can be doing something that will fix the situation. Reading about it and learning about the details isn't fixing it. Peacewalking is. Making cranes is. The child is willing to make the emotional sacrifice required to help fix the situation. You have to be careful about letting the child pick which emotional sacrifices are within their capabilities, though. I don't think one person can judge for another what will be doable and won't overwhelm. That said, GRIN, I am now going to reverse myself and offer a bit of hope for peace: check out Mayors for Peace (a search should pull up the website). My family have all worked at getting cities around us signed up. My children find it comforting to see how many cities have participated. Maybe she would, too? It fits in with her crane project very well.

-Nan

[Peela]

I would say its true. I have found my very bright 13yo is not really properly in the Logic stage yet, although shes just coming round now. I can't imagine she will be in rhetoric any time soon. She is mature, happy, well adjusted, not particularly sensitive kid, who actually doesn't really care that much about things to think about them too deeply.:001_smile: Her interests are elsewhere. She's a social butterfly and artist, but is one of those kids that can do anything she puts her mind to, well enough. She read Ann Frank. She found it interesting for a while, then boring. It didnt upset her. And if she thought deeply about it, she didn't let on . :)

Her 12yo brother however, cant do Logic puzzles for anything, but he thinks deeply and comes up with amazing insights at times and loves to talk about them. I suspect he is developing in some ways ahead of his sister, or perhaps its just his very different personality.

Didnt the ancients do rhetoric in their late teens and early twenties? I suspect we will only be beginning that phase when I am finishing with my two and they are moving off into their next phase of life.

[LibraryLover]

:001_smile: It's so important to remember that each person is an individual. We all grow as we grow. It's not a race, it's a journey. Thank you! I love the take, too on making cranes. I will look into Peacemakers, Nan.