Math...help please!!!

[joyfulmomSDG]

I am experiencing this math thing for the first time with my 1st grader and I have been searching the board for pro's/con's of the different methods. My 14yo, who began HSing in 4th grade, is not so mathy and has used Saxon (tears), Abeka (not as bad for her) and LOF (yay she is liking math!). I am now finding myself drawn to a more conceptual sort of program esp for my younger ones but I honestly can't afford a lot of trial and error.

 

This is our situation...I am working through the Horizons 1st grade book with my son who seems to be a mathy sort of kid. (we did the K book also) He has learned so much and done pretty well so far. The problem I am beginning to see is that he seems really reliant on the number line for addition/subtraction. He also doesn't have some of the more difficult skip-counting down. He can do 2, 5, and 10, but not 3, 4, 6, etc. Is this the sort of thing that just has to be memorized??? Does a more conceptual program help in these areas? I don't use a TG, could that be the problem? Oh, and as of now math is a very "ugh" subject that is very "let's just get the workbook page done." I just feel like it could be so much more interesting for him!! (and pleasant for me ;))

 

I am so confused especially with all the supplementing of curriculum. Horizons seems to be ok for him in general, but I have no idea what I would supplement with? Or even switch to altogether.

 

Horizons, Singapore, Math Mammoth, Right Start, combo, agggggghhhh.....what to do?????

[Sunshine State Sue]

Have you ever taken a look at Cathy Duffy's books? She helps you determine your child's learning style, then tells which programs are better/worse for the different learning styles. I found it very helpful, and it helped me to narrow down what might work for my student. Then, I was able to scrutinize my top 3 picks at a hs convention.

 

HTH!

Edited May 22, 2010 by Sue in St Pete

[8filltheheart]

A couple of thoughts.....

 

First, Horizons gives them the number line to use. It is a developmental step and they do expect them to wean off of them. However, the number line does also serve a purpose in helping them understand the relationship between numbers and the operations they are performing.

 

Second, I don't expect my younger kids to master all skip counting. Honestly, I really don't care for much skip counting other than 2s, 5s, 10s, and 25s anyway. I don't recall off the top of my head as to whether or not they expect a 1st grader to master the 3s and 4s, etc.....but I don't think so. It seems to me that I recall seeing them in the 2nd grade books this yr.

 

I personally love Horizons and don't plan on switching, ever. ;) But, we do add in fun stuff and use Cuisenaire rods, etc to help understanding. I don't think you need to worry about the content. Perhaps, just change the way it is being taught?

[joyfulmomSDG]

I don't think you need to worry about the content. Perhaps, just change the way it is being taught?

 

Just as I suspected! I am probably the problem :D I have really liked Horizons so far too! He brightens up when go "beyond the worksheet" and pull out legos to explain something or walk around the table to discuss perimeters. I'm just not all that creative - maybe I should just get the TM for the lesson ideas?? It is encouraging to know that some of the concepts aren't supposed to be *mastered* necessarily.

 

Sue - thanks for the reminder about Cathy Duffy's learning styles. I'm reserving the book from the library now!

[PentecostalMom]

Are there specific books you suggest from Cathy Duffy? My dd seems to learn better when she can hear things, such as listening to the audio CD from OPGTR and doing with manipulatives for math. It would be a great help to me to figure out her learning style before I waste a lot of $$ on curriculum.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Are there specific books you suggest from Cathy Duffy? My dd seems to learn better when she can hear things, such as listening to the audio CD from OPGTR and doing with manipulatives for math. It would be a great help to me to figure out her learning style before I waste a lot of $$ on curriculum.

Either the 100 Top Picks or the Curriculum guide (there's one for elementary and one for junior/senior high). They all have the learning styles quiz and suggestions.

[ChrissySC]

I suppose this will be a bit lengthy. I have time this morning (if you didn't see my previous post today, you are in for it now, LOL).

 

There is not really a right or a wrong program for our Hs'ing options are numerous and significantly cover topics well. I switch programs when the need arises. I have used ps math books, MUS, Jacobs, Abeka, BJU, etc. I have been teaching math for quite some time to my dc. First, get over the "which program is broken" idea.

 

I, personally, feel that math is best taught visually. Our dc in K or 1st do not have any ideas of numbers. Numbers, to them, are simply the one through ten that they count back for our praises and cheers. Thus, we lean towards those programs that have rods, beads, sticks, et cetera and almost all of them come with some sort of manipulative. Therefore, more than likely, neither program will be better for the child.

 

The question should be which method can you teach. Finally, you must realize that all the way through your dc's academic math life that you will be teaching math. You will be figuring out the problem when it is unsolveable. Yes, videos are great. Dive cd's are fantastic. (BTW, yes, you put an apostrophe and the letter "s" after an acronym <giggle>). The final teacher is you. I do not believe that a child will learn math on their own. If you swear up and down the road that your child has never needed you, I will beg you to have them evaluated. Even at the highschool level, their cognition depends solely on what you provide (by the way, the instructional videos do give us a significant break at this point), but your role must be active. I found that my dc's love to see me struggle with a complex word problem or to see me struggle with my order of operations.

 

You need to like math. You need to be understanding with your dc's needs. Children immitate behavior.

 

To some up spiral and mastery - I dislike these discussions. I will tell you why. It boils down to how many review problems! Sprial programs have few problems that cover the taught concept and review and review and review the rest. So, you may not come across very many problems regarding that particular skill until much later. (See Saxon for a classical example, which I have used generously during my hs'ing years in the middle grades for that very reason.) Mastery programs will work with the concepts, usually only a few and closely connected, for a lesson, and the review problems are seperate. Often times, this is referred to as conceptual.

 

Color? Are you serious? Does it matter? I think not. It will only make the text or workbook more expensive. Yes, we naturally want things pretty. We are, well most of us, women. Get over the colors. Jacob's Geometry has no color. It was my favorite text for geometry. Keep in mind that all the pretty pictures and drawings and artsie cartoonish styles can be very distracting! The little ones will have eyes all over the page and not on the task at hand.

 

Which brings me to TT and SOS, as an example, with the computer, oh please? Really, again? How much math can you do in your head? I thought we were homeschooling to keep away from the ps trends. Yes, I sound terrible. Don't I? I dislike math without paper. All the way through my academic math career, the best paper was plain white paper. Stop using lined paper. Math needs to be as big as you need it, it needs to be visually undisturbed, and it needs to have scratchwork!

 

Lastly, keep workbooks as workbooks. These are not stand-alone curriculum. You need a foundation text. Your dc may not need the text, but you do. MM and LoF are borderline, IMO again.

 

Now, you have been enlightened or enraged. At the very least, I hope you are encouraged to start searching for your opinion and finding that great fit for you and your dc. Do not be afraid to make a decision. I often do not go with the trendy or popular method of the "time" and neither should you if it isn't for you to teach or your dc to learn.

 

:)

 

In conclusion, my suggestion is MUS.

[8filltheheart]

I suppose this will be a bit lengthy. I have time this morning (if you didn't see my previous post today, you are in for it now, LOL).

 

There is not really a right or a wrong program for our Hs'ing options are numerous and significantly cover topics well. I switch programs when the need arises. I have used ps math books, MUS, Jacobs, Abeka, BJU, etc. I have been teaching math for quite some time to my dc. First, get over the "which program is broken" idea.

 

I, personally, feel that math is best taught visually. Our dc in K or 1st do not have any ideas of numbers. Numbers, to them, are simply the one through ten that they count back for our praises and cheers. Thus, we lean towards those programs that have rods, beads, sticks, et cetera and almost all of them come with some sort of manipulative. Therefore, more than likely, neither program will be better for the child.

 

The question should be which method can you teach. Finally, you must realize that all the way through your dc's academic math life that you will be teaching math. You will be figuring out the problem when it is unsolveable. Yes, videos are great. Dive cd's are fantastic. (BTW, yes, you put an apostrophe and the letter "s" after an acronym <giggle>). The final teacher is you. I do not believe that a child will learn math on their own. If you swear up and down the road that your child has never needed you, I will beg you to have them evaluated. Even at the highschool level, their cognition depends solely on what you provide (by the way, the instructional videos do give us a significant break at this point), but your role must be active. I found that my dc's love to see me struggle with a complex word problem or to see me struggle with my order of operations.

 

You need to like math. You need to be understanding with your dc's needs. Children immitate behavior.

 

To some up spiral and mastery - I dislike these discussions. I will tell you why. It boils down to how many review problems! Sprial programs have few problems that cover the taught concept and review and review and review the rest. So, you may not come across very many problems regarding that particular skill until much later. (See Saxon for a classical example, which I have used generously during my hs'ing years in the middle grades for that very reason.) Mastery programs will work with the concepts, usually only a few and closely connected, for a lesson, and the review problems are seperate. Often times, this is referred to as conceptual.

 

Color? Are you serious? Does it matter? I think not. It will only make the text or workbook more expensive. Yes, we naturally want things pretty. We are, well most of us, women. Get over the colors. Jacob's Geometry has no color. It was my favorite text for geometry. Keep in mind that all the pretty pictures and drawings and artsie cartoonish styles can be very distracting! The little ones will have eyes all over the page and not on the task at hand.

 

Which brings me to TT and SOS, as an example, with the computer, oh please? Really, again? How much math can you do in your head? I thought we were homeschooling to keep away from the ps trends. Yes, I sound terrible. Don't I? I dislike math without paper. All the way through my academic math career, the best paper was plain white paper. Stop using lined paper. Math needs to be as big as you need it, it needs to be visually undisturbed, and it needs to have scratchwork!

 

Lastly, keep workbooks as workbooks. These are not stand-alone curriculum. You need a foundation text. Your dc may not need the text, but you do. MM and LoF are borderline, IMO again.

 

Now, you have been enlightened or enraged. At the very least, I hope you are encouraged to start searching for your opinion and finding that great fit for you and your dc. Do not be afraid to make a decision. I often do not go with the trendy or popular method of the "time" and neither should you if it isn't for you to teach or your dc to learn.

 

:)

 

In conclusion, my suggestion is MUS.

 

 

Chrissy,

 

In large part I agree with you. It is your very last comment that I want to draw your attention to. MUS. Did you homeschool your 19 yo with MUS? I ask b/c while I know absolutely nothing about the elementary program other than my kids would go crazy having such a hyper-focused curriculum (variety being the spice of life and all of that!), I do find MUS's high school courses to not be on par with texts like Foerster's alg 1 or Larson's, Jacob's, or Alexander's geometry text.

 

Oh, and our Jacob's 2nd ed did have color. ;) Now, my favorite, Geometry, by Daniel Alexander and Geralyn Koeberlein (Houghton Mifflin Company, 2007), it is plainer than any text I have ever seen other than MUS.

[ChrissySC]

I did not use MUS with highschool. I switched in the first few weeks of Algebra. I tried a spiral approach - Saxon. We actually stayed with Saxon for Algebra 1 and 2 but used Dr. Callahan for Geometry (Jacob's). I used MUS in the 1-3 grades to cement the concept of numbers and math.

 

"Foerster's alg 1 or Larson's, Jacob's, or Alexander's geometry text."

 

I have looked at some of these and even used some. I, being the computer whiz I am (toot toot on my horn ;) ) love math and I love these books!

 

I suggested MUS for "tears" and the age. To build confidence in math and to build a love for math at this point - I would use MUS with LoF supplements. Yes, all of them, if the poster decided to stick with the MUS program. I love LoF. LoF makes living math! Just my opinion, but it sounded like the poor child was getting frustrated and overwhelmed. I think that Jacob's or Forester's would be too much at this point. I would try getting through Algebra and if things went well and it worked great, I would pick up Jacob's Geometry (remember it actually is a college-level book). If things go great, I would move on to Forester's, Larson's, etc. and maintain that higher challenge.

 

:( Bummer, how much color did your Jacob's have? (Forgot to say - thanks for the geo title! I'll be checking it out.)

 

Just in case everyone is curious, I will be using good old Saxon because of the review this year - followed by LoF Fractions. We may end up switching but oh well :) I'm glad we have all these choices!

[8filltheheart]

I would pick up Jacob's Geometry (remember it actually is a college-level book)!

 

Are you confusing titles, perhaps? Jacob's alg and his geo books are strictly high school level books. Perhaps that is why you don't remember any color in your Jacob's. And, while people post that the pre-alg book that CD uses is actually a college level text (I am completely unfamiliar with it so I have no idea), I do know that the Larson geo text is just a simple high school text. The new geo text is supposedly a college level text, but certainly not a difficult one. (that is the one I referred to as my fav)

[momof2girls]

Have you looked at:

 

RightStart - lots of manipulatives, card games, fun activities

Shiller - lots of manipulatives

Math on the Level - only 5 problems per day

 

Also, this year I'm thinking of trying:

 

http://www.livingmath.net/

 

It is a really cool literature based math history program.

 

I've got problems with various programs too so I'm still trying to find the right fit here. :D

 

K

[Sunshine State Sue]

I must agree with ChrissySC and 8FillsTheHeart.

 

We used and loved MUS in the elementary years. We liked the multi-sensory approach and the lack of color and variety didn't bother us. It would bother others. That's fine because there are other good options out there. I also found MUS lacking in the high school years.

 

It's beneficial to choose a program you can teach and your child will learn easily from.

[ChrissySC]

Have you looked at:

 

RightStart - lots of manipulatives, card games, fun activities

Shiller - lots of manipulatives

Math on the Level - only 5 problems per day

 

Also, this year I'm thinking of trying:

 

http://www.livingmath.net/

 

It is a really cool literature based math history program.

 

I've got problems with various programs too so I'm still trying to find the right fit here. :D

 

K

 

I love the link. Thank you!!!!! I will be reading lots.:D

[ChrissySC]

Are you confusing titles, perhaps? Jacob's alg and his geo books are strictly high school level books. Perhaps that is why you don't remember any color in your Jacob's. And, while people post that the pre-alg book that CD uses is actually a college level text (I am completely unfamiliar with it so I have no idea), I do know that the Larson geo text is just a simple high school text. The new geo text is supposedly a college level text, but certainly not a difficult one. (that is the one I referred to as my fav)

 

 

Confusion - some days - is quite a part of life!:lol:

 

It is possible I have them confused. Anything really is possible.

 

I will make sure I look for your favorite choice, particularly that level.

 

BTW, a bit OT, however, love your posts! I have had some moments over the years with posters that I love to read (I've been around forever. Remember the old board?), and I enjoy them! Actually, the group we have around in the last few years has been excellent. :D