Shurley vs Rod and Staff

[happy2teach]

This has been my first year of homeschooling. I have used FLL 1 with my dd 7yr and Rod and Staff 3 with my ds 9yr. For next year, I am planning to switch from TOG Year 1 to MARR Veritas Press Scholars using their lesson plans. I wish to streamline the daily lesson plans through VP Scholars and eliminate second guessing myself. I appreciate what most of what VP MARR offers, however, I am not familliar with Shurley.

 

Here is my delimna: Should I stick with R&D or should I switch to Shurley Method? What does Shurley have that is not in R&D and vice versa? If I pick one over the other, do I need to supplement with other materials?

 

Thanks

[Mommy7]

Shurley does not have diagramming. SWB recommends adding a resource for that if you choose Shurley. Shurley has jingles that you recite to help you learn pronouns, prepositions, etc. Shurley uses a parsing technique...you classify the parts of the sentences by labeling them as you go through a Question and Answer Flow series of questions. Shurley is totally scripted. R&S is not...can't think of anything else. Maybe someone else will chime in. Anyway, hth. :001_smile:

[LilMama]

We prefer R&S in our house. I tried Shurley with my older DS. He liked the jingles. They were great. They teach sentence classification through a question and answer flow. I didn't like that the sentence structure was the same throughout the book. I am sure there was a reason behind this. It just had a strange feel.

 

In the Rod and Staff 2nd grade book, the student learns about sentences, pronouns, nouns, verbs, and adjective. There is no diagramming in this level. However, the student may need to find a part of speech in sentences that don't fit a cookie cutter format.

 

HTH!

LilMama

[PeterPan]

You know, grammar is pretty personal. I think if you LIKE R&S a lot, you're not going to be happy changing, simply because you're changing. It's a very solid curriculum. If you're ambivalent about R&S or dissatisfied, then fine change. I'm not sure how much writing they include in the Shurley lessons. That would be something to ask about, whether you'd be missing writing. Other than that, I'd feel free to stay with your R&S. We did FLL1/2, went to R&S, and dd hated it. Shurley has been great for us. We skip the jingles and whatnot, diagram every day, and modify it to suit us. It has worked out well for us, but I wouldn't suggest leaving what you're happy with for it. There's SO much meat in the rest of the Scholars subjects, it's not going to fall apart if you stick with your R&S and skip Shurley. :)

[Woodland_Mom]

Shurley English doesn't have diagramming, but if you're familiar with that, you can easily pick a sentence each day to diagram together.

 

Shurley tracks nicely with Latin for Children. Shurley English uses sentence patterns to help determine sentence structure. I'm not sure if R&S uses sentence patterns or not.

 

Your lesson VP Scholars plans will not be effected if you use a different grammar program. You should pick what you like.

[happy2teach]

Thank you all for your responses and advice. I agree that if R & D is working, then there is no need to change. It is good to know that VP Scholars has so much meat that keeping R & D will be a problem.

[Dina in Oklahoma]

Hello ~

 

Every child is different; but my DD used Shurley in two different schools and I found she was just memorizing NOT learning grammar much less English. We are now using R&S along with Grammar songs by Troxel and this has been a very productive year for her. Here's a link if you are interested:

http://www.christianbook.com/grammar-songs-and-book/kathy-troxel/9781883028107/pd/28141?item_code=WW&netp_id=199049&event=ESRCN&view=details

 

Best Wishes,

 

Dina :001_smile:

[PeterPan]

Dina-It's totally possible to memorize and not understand using Shurley. The scope & sequence is also different from a regular curriculum. If she did grades 1 and 2, she covered so little, it wasn't much of a grammar experience to speak of. However if you do the levels as the author says (2,4,6,7 or 3,5,7) and really TALK with them and apply it in your other times (during CW, WT, latin, etc.), I think you'll have no problem with application, real understanding, and retention. My dd's understanding of grammar is very intuitive because of Shurley, and she applies it well to new situations. You have to teach it, talk about it, apply it.

[Dina in Oklahoma]

Dina-It's totally possible to memorize and not understand using Shurley. The scope & sequence is also different from a regular curriculum. If she did grades 1 and 2, she covered so little, it wasn't much of a grammar experience to speak of. However if you do the levels as the author says (2,4,6,7 or 3,5,7) and really TALK with them and apply it in your other times (during CW, WT, latin, etc.), I think you'll have no problem with application, real understanding, and retention. My dd's understanding of grammar is very intuitive because of Shurley, and she applies it well to new situations. You have to teach it, talk about it, apply it.

 

Thanks OH Elizabeth for the information, but we are sold on what we are doing now. DD LOVES Rod and Staff and is breezing through with great results. She used Shurley levels 3 and 4 at two different schools. In addition, to be frank, as someone with a background in instructional design, the layout drove me crazy!:tongue_smilie:

 

I'm glad it works for you! :001_smile:

Edited April 2, 2010 by Dina in Oklahoma

[PeterPan]

Actually, I explained that for other people who might read the thread later. I'm glad it's working for you. And I totally agree about the tm, yuck. I turned it down at first, not liking the tm, threw it at the wall when I bought it a couple years later out of desperation, and finally, on my third try, learned how to live with it and love it. It's like a porcupine; you don't want to get to close. Just in and out. :)

[Guest]

Actually, I explained that for other people who might read the thread later. I'm glad it's working for you. And I totally agree about the tm, yuck. I turned it down at first, not liking the tm, threw it at the wall when I bought it a couple years later out of desperation, and finally, on my third try, learned how to live with it and love it. It's like a porcupine; you don't want to get to close. Just in and out. :)

 

:lol:

I'm looking at getting Shurley in the fall. I wonder how I will feel about it. Quick question for you, so then should I get something to use for diagramming and if so what? I noticed you mentioned that you do it daily. Here’s a little background to keep in mind before you answer. My family moved us back to Europe when I was very young and so I went to school there for the most part which means that I have not done diagramming and would not know the first thing about teaching it. I have researched Shurley quite extensively and have chosen to go ahead with it. We will also be using CW in the future after WWE.

[PeterPan]

Marie, with a 6 yo I would do FLL1/2. From there, you can go into Shurley 2 (if he's young) or 4, no problem. I wouldn't bother with diagramming till you hit Shurley 4. CLE sells an inexpensive handbook that explains everything quite clearly.

[Guest]

Marie, with a 6 yo I would do FLL1/2. From there, you can go into Shurley 2 (if he's young) or 4, no problem. I wouldn't bother with diagramming till you hit Shurley 4. CLE sells an inexpensive handbook that explains everything quite clearly.

 

Thank you for your recommendations. I have had FLL on my list to buy but have purchased (and have on my to purchase list) so many things that I keep wondering how much overlap I will have.

 

We used HOP K-2 and Adrian is now reading at an early to mid third grade level. I have kept him on Horizons K though because I don't want to rush things and want to make sure he does not develop any gaps anywhere. We have been using ETC also. He will be starting ETC 3 and I also have 3 1/2 but it has just become busy work now so I think I will be ditching ETC altogether after that and just continuing with Horizons Phonics which goes up to grade 2. Shurley I have wanted for grammar (not sure if I will be using it for anything else yet) but recently I started reading Jim Trelease's Read-Aloud handbook (and other books that advocate about using books to teach LA) and got very interested in the "Whole Language" approach so am looking to implement that somehow. Since I feel my English LA knowledge is a little weak when it comes to teaching it since I had to continue with English as a second language after grade 4, I try to ensure I have the materials that will help me teach my son.

 

I looked at FLL again and am thinking your idea sounds good. Just to give you an idea of what I had been looking at getting for next year (he has a late October birthday and turned six this past October, so I am considering what we are doing now his K year):

 

- WRTR (I want the spelling rules from here and I also have Spelling Power)

- Wordly Wise 3000 grade 1 (I want Wordly Wise because my son has been enjoying the K format but unsure if I will continue beyond that since I don't really know how much we will actually need it given the approach I am looking to implement)

- Horizons Phonics 1 (I am really happy with the Horizons approach and want to follow this one as is, it is K-2)

- WWE for grades 1 and 2 (switch to CW in grade 3 or 4)

- Song School Latin

- and finally I was going to get Shurley for grammar

 

CLE I have never researched so I will be checking the handbook you mentioned and try to get it ahead of time for myself. I also need to check the Shurley levels again and see where we are at or if you could help with some suggestions here... I noticed you mentioned possibly jumping into level 4 after FLL but I was not sure when you meant. Or should we just go with level 2 in grade 2 as you also suggested? I am hoping to possibly add grammar instruction through the "Whole Language" approach as well (if I can figure out how to do that). I want to teach things like grammar, phonics and spelling by using the books he is reading and follow the same approach with his brother. I recently picked up the "Between the Lions" curriculum book from the library to see if I can get a better picture on how to implement this approach but as I mentioned before I am also reading other books on it.

 

Another thing, I have not come across the recommendation on how to use the Shurley levels before except in the forums here. I was just going to take the levels in order. I remember coming across a mention about how to use the levels in the past and you just mentioned it again in one of your previous posts. Could you explain a little more about how that works or where I would get that information?

 

Thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate your feedback and sorry for the rambling.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Guest

[PeterPan]

I like the foundation the memory work in FLL 1/2 provides, but that's just me. I did it with my dd, went into Shurley2, hated the tm, tried R&S3 (dd HATED it) then went back to Shurley. At that point we went directly into Shurley 4. Yes, the author says you can skip levels (2,4,6,7 or 3,5,7). Personally, I prefer the 2,4,6,7 route. You could skip 2 with an older student, say a 3rd grader, and go directly into 4, but I wouldn't do that with a 1st grader. With a 1st grader just do 2 and be done with it. It will be enough without being overwhelming.

 

The nice think about skipping levels is it gives you some flexibility. You're probably going to find yourself interested in CW, WT, and some of the programs that get you in applying the grammar to models. When you do that, you don't need to be so constantly beating them on the head with tons of grammar, kwim? You could spread Shurley 4 over a couple years while you do CW/WT. There's no rush. Your latin will reinforce the grammar. Your writing time will reinforce the grammar. Shurley is enough without being too much. I don't think you need to do every single level when you're carrying it to other subjects, but that's just my experience. Do what seems best to you for your student, kwim? VP uses Shurley in their sequence (see their catalog), and they skip just one of the levels, using all the rest. Do as you think best.

 

FLL has very non-abstract, enjoyable introductions to each of the parts of speech, so I highly recommend it. It's ok to pull out just what you need and leave the rest. You might even try your local library and see what you think. You might just use it for a month or two and move on, meaning the library loan copy would do. ;)

 

Are you looking for writing options? When my dd was that age there weren't so many options as there are now. The CW Primer stuff is supposed to be amazing, so you might check it out. I like WWE a lot, but you could probably do both. Do you really feel you need the Wordly Wise? Some people enjoy workbooks and some kids DON'T. My kid was in the don't, and she tended to know the words already anyway. You're getting a lot of LA components, so you just want to look at your list and make sure you're as streamlined as possible. Eliminate overlap and use one curriculum, like WTRT, to cover a whole bunch of skills. For instance, you could practice your FLL skill for the day using your WRTR words.

[Guest]

I like the foundation the memory work in FLL 1/2 provides, but that's just me. I did it with my dd, went into Shurley2, hated the tm, tried R&S3 (dd HATED it) then went back to Shurley. At that point we went directly into Shurley 4. Yes, the author says you can skip levels (2,4,6,7 or 3,5,7). Personally, I prefer the 2,4,6,7 route. You could skip 2 with an older student, say a 3rd grader, and go directly into 4, but I wouldn't do that with a 1st grader. With a 1st grader just do 2 and be done with it. It will be enough without being overwhelming.

 

The nice think about skipping levels is it gives you some flexibility. You're probably going to find yourself interested in CW, WT, and some of the programs that get you in applying the grammar to models. When you do that, you don't need to be so constantly beating them on the head with tons of grammar, kwim? You could spread Shurley 4 over a couple years while you do CW/WT. There's no rush. Your latin will reinforce the grammar. Your writing time will reinforce the grammar. Shurley is enough without being too much. I don't think you need to do every single level when you're carrying it to other subjects, but that's just my experience. Do what seems best to you for your student, kwim? VP uses Shurley in their sequence (see their catalog), and they skip just one of the levels, using all the rest. Do as you think best.

 

FLL has very non-abstract, enjoyable introductions to each of the parts of speech, so I highly recommend it. It's ok to pull out just what you need and leave the rest. You might even try your local library and see what you think. You might just use it for a month or two and move on, meaning the library loan copy would do. ;)

 

Are you looking for writing options? When my dd was that age there weren't so many options as there are now. The CW Primer stuff is supposed to be amazing, so you might check it out. I like WWE a lot, but you could probably do both. Do you really feel you need the Wordly Wise? Some people enjoy workbooks and some kids DON'T. My kid was in the don't, and she tended to know the words already anyway. You're getting a lot of LA components, so you just want to look at your list and make sure you're as streamlined as possible. Eliminate overlap and use one curriculum, like WTRT, to cover a whole bunch of skills. For instance, you could practice your FLL skill for the day using your WRTR words.

 

Actually I really like your idea about FLL (as I mentioned before) and would definitely not attempt Shurley 4 with a 1st grader no matter how advanced his reading is ;). While reevaluating (I have been doing a lot of that lately) I figured I would take a look at some other programs again and I also looked at Rod and Staff but I still came back to Shurley as my top choice. I am not one that likes changing programs and this was another reason I was going to start with Shurley from the beginning, but taking another look at FLL, I like the approach and scripted is what I am looking for anyway. It gives me the flexibility to use it as I wish plus the picture study part will more than likely work better for our non auditory and very visual/ tactile family. Actually this is another reason I decided to use Wordly Wise 3000 in the first place. The K and 1 packages use big concept cards (with pics) and flashcards (again with pics) with the words. The workbook is not the typical workbook. They get to cut and paste, color etc. Do we need Wordly Wise? Certainly not! With Adrian's reading level he knows many/ most of the words. Also, when he reads a book (I have him doing quite a bit of on the side reading with various library books) we mark down the words he does not know the meaning of and then we google pictures and anything we can find that is related. So we do vocabulary already and he really enjoys that so I will continue with that. The fun approach however of the Wordly Wise K package has really boosted his listening comprehension (reading comprehension he does not have an issue with) which being a non auditory child he has struggled a little with, (both his dad and I are visual/ tactile and non auditory and even as adults we have issues keeping up when someone reads to us, we really have to stay focused) so we really want to work on that with him so that it does not become an issue with him in the future. This is why I said I want to get the grade 1 package that follows the same format. After that it's doubtful that we will continue with Wordly Wise.

 

What I am thinking now then is using FLL for grades 1 and 2 and then moving onto Shurley in grade 3 with level 4. I did check our library (we are in Canada) to hopefully get a closer look at the book (I have decided to buy it anyway) but they do not carry it. I did however notice on Amazon that two separate books will be coming out with level 1 coming out at the end of September so I will probably wait and get the new one and get level 2 for grade 2 and then switch to Shurley as I mentioned before in grade 3 with level 4. If FLL works well for us I may even consider continuing with the other two levels (3 and 4) and switching to Shurley at a later date, we shall see. I wonder what the differences are between the older 1 & 2 and the new books. I will have to check if there’s anything in the WTM website I guess, to see if waiting until the end of September to order is warranted. By the way I took a look at my WTM book (I have the older edition) and noticed that they already have recommendations for books on outlining and diagramming to use with Shurley. Given that we live in Canada I try to get the bulk of our homeschool stuff from 3 specific suppliers (Amazon, Rainbow and CBD) and none of them seem to carry the CLE book so I will have to consider the books recommended in the WTM.

 

Thank you for reminding me that CW also offers primer books. I have wanted to take a look at those, I will do that now. I have already purchased WWE so we will be going ahead with that. I also have Writing Aids since we will be using TOG but I have not started planning our year yet so I am not sure if I will use Writing Aids during the lower grammar stage. I didn't see much in the area of activities from Writing Aids at that level anyway. I do need to review all my choices again. I know I have too much on my list and don't really mind some overlap since I can pick and choose. The point for me is having materials that I am comfortable to pick and choose from if you know what I mean ;).

 

Thank you for taking the time and my apologies once again for the wordy replies. You have been most helpful and thank you so very much for making me take a look at FLL again.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Guest