Switch to CW or stay with IEW?

[Sweet Home Alabama]

We've used IEW American History Themed Writing this year. This was our first "real" writing curriculum with my 5th and 6th graders. My kids have learned more "structure" than "style" with IEW, but it has been a good experience. (This might be a good example of, "If it ain't broke......")

 

My kids have completed Winston Grammar and JAG (5th grader) and AG Season One (6th grader) along with some Abeka and Easy Grammar.

 

It seems right to follow this with IEW Ancient History Themed Writing next year when we study ancients with My Father's World. However, I wanted to check with all of you to see if this might be a good time to try Classical Writing......(or another program that teaches the progym).

 

Specifically, my kids have had a hard time using strong verbs in place of "was _______." (Example: The curious cat was stalking the mouse. instead of The curious cat crept silently up to the sleeping mouse.) They also use vocabulary words in awkward ways to fulfill the checklist requirements.

 

I wonder if CW would refine what we've learned after one year of IEW~ helping my kids use words more accurately -or- if we should use IEW again to firm up IEW principles we've learned only this year.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Please share thoughts about IEW vs. CW for long term use.... college prep. Also are there any other programs that I should consider? Should we stick with one or switch at some point?

 

Thanks!!!!

 

P.S. I'm mostly concerned with the lack of continuity if we changed, yet I want them to have the best combination of structure/style.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Sweet Home Alabama

[siloam]

I don't think it would be a bad time to try CW, but it is hard to say if it will do what you would like it to. Homer does do a lot of work with synonyms, changing tense, changing the first word of the sentence, changing what type of sentence it is (to a question, to an exclamation, ect... which is also in Aesop), changing from plural to singular, and singular to plural (and the same with common and proper nouns), but it won't work on one specific type of wording. What it teaches might naturally work that out, but it might not, KWIM?

 

Grammar wise you would be fine to start with Homer. The only thing to worry about is Homer B covers clauses (of all types), so you want to have done or at least started AG season 2 by the time you start Homer B, or you will need to modify the grammar.

 

Does that help?

 

Heather

 

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Thanks, Heather, that does help.

 

Sounds like if we switched, we would need to start in Homer A.

 

I decided to use IEW instead of CW in the first place because I wanted my kids to learn the 5-paragraph essay quickly. IEW has done that. Of course, we still need lots of practice, but with CW I would have had to wait until Diogenes.

 

What about starting in Older Beginners? I was hoping that a year of IEW would at least be a stepping stone. I'm wondering if I was wrong.

 

Also, how hard is it to really learn the method..... to get into a routine?

[siloam]

Thanks, Heather, that does help.

 

Sounds like if we switched, we would need to start in Homer A.

 

I decided to use IEW instead of CW in the first place because I wanted my kids to learn the 5-paragraph essay quickly. IEW has done that. Of course, we still need lots of practice, but with CW I would have had to wait until Diogenes.

 

What about starting in Older Beginners? I was hoping that a year of IEW would at least be a stepping stone. I'm wondering if I was wrong.

 

Also, how hard is it to really learn the method..... to get into a routine?

They recommend the Older Beginners for 7th grade and up, so your going to be 6th grade might be a little young. The biggest issue with OB, I think, is just that it moves quickly.

 

Honestly once you get Homer it is not that difficult.

 

Day 1 you do analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar)

Day 3 is Sentence work

Day 4 is Paragraph work

 

That is the basic weekly routine. The difficulty is the daily work does change almost weekly. I will bold and underline what changes.

 

This isn't exactly how it works out, but it is a sample of how it moves.

 

Say this is week 1:

 

Day 1 Analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar) Introduce Nouns and parsing them.

Day 3 is Sentence work; Introduce the different types of sentences

Day 4 is Paragraph work; Copywork or Dictation

 

Week 2:

 

Day 1 Analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar) Parse nouns and do synonym work with nouns

Day 3 is Sentence work; Change sentence type

Day 4 is Paragraph work; Copywork or Dictation

 

Week 3

 

Day 1 Analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar) Parse nouns and do synonym work with Nouns

Day 3 is Sentence work; Change sentence type and noun synonym work with sentences

Day 4 is Paragraph work; Copywork or Dictation

 

Week 4

 

Day 1 Analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar) Parse nouns and introduce common and proper nouns

Day 3 is Sentence work; Change sentence type and noun synonym work with sentences

Day 4 is Paragraph work; Copywork or Dictation and noun synonym work with paragraphs

 

Week 5

 

Day 1 Analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar) Noun parsing and change from common to proper or proper to common nouns.

Day 3 is Sentence work; Change sentence type and noun synonym work with sentences

Day 4 is Paragraph work; Copywork or Dictation and noun synonym work with paragraphs

 

Week 6

 

Day 1 Analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar) Noun parsing and change from common to proper or proper to common nouns.

Day 3 is Sentence work; Change sentence type, noun synonym work and common/proper noun work work with sentences

Day 4 is Paragraph work; Copywork or Dictation and noun synonym work with paragraphs

 

Week 7

 

Day 1 Analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar) Noun parsing and introduce plural and singular nouns.

Day 3 is Sentence work; Change sentence type and noun synonym work with sentences and common/proper noun work

Day 4 is Paragraph work; Copywork or Dictation, noun synonym work and common/proper noun work with paragraphs

 

Week 8

 

Day 1 Analysis

Day 2 is Word work (grammar) Noun parsing and do plural and singular noun changes.

Day 3 is Sentence work; Change sentence type and noun synonym work with sentences and common/proper noun work

Day 4 is Paragraph work; Copywork or Dictation, noun synonym work and common/proper noun work with paragraphs

 

In some ways I think that is what makes Homer mentally difficult, is you never find a sweet spot where you are doing the same exact thing week after week. Even the re-writes change 5 times with Homer A. The Analysis on day 1 also changes, generally becoming more detailed. Not that you add in all the details, but you break it into acts, then scenes, summarizing each and identifying necessary details and unnecessary. The practical application of Homer A is being able to do a good book report, based on summarizing and leaving out non-essential details.

 

In learning the program by reading the core book it becomes confusing because they assign each of these steps a skill level, so words is day 2 and nouns is Level 1, and doing synonyms is skill 1, changing between common and proper is skill 2 and changing between plural and singular is skill 3. That isn't so confusing till you get to day 3 and find they repeat how to do all the noun work but with sentences, but it has a different level number because you start here with changing sentence type, then when you get to day 4 in reading the core they repeat how to do it all again with paragraphs, but again it may have different levels and skill numbers. Unless you are doing an outline of some sort it is very easy to get confused quickly. I personally work off the Student Workbook, and make a spreadsheet (HiddenJewel's idea) that tells me when things change each week. That way with a quick glance I can see what needs to be taught that week. Because most of the skills are repeating it actually isn't that hard to implement if you can just figure out when things change. If you aren't ready for the changes I could see one missing a change, then suddenly finding oneself behind in a skill about the time it was moving to a new skill. Make sense?

 

After I made the spreadsheet I found it had a very logical flow, and I had the tools to keep up with that movement. Now it seems fairly easy to implement.

 

Heather

Edited January 15, 2010 by siloam

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Heather,

 

You were so kind to type all that out. Thank you so much for your help. I see what you mean about CW being confusing (but simple once you get the hang of it.) Undoubtedly, it's a great curriculum.

 

I read a lot about CW on this forum last night. Many people love it. It teaches writing through narration vs IEW's method of writing with dressups. [i found a page describing Theon's Principals and the Six Sentence Shuffle on-line, and the thought crossed my mind how I could teach these things on my own..... (I am never able to do this successfully! :) ] I really felt the urgent need to get my kids writing and FAST because we had put it off too long in my opinion. IEW did that. CW felt slow in comparision. That's why now that we have a base, I've turned my attention back to CW.

 

I'm concerned with the dress-ups from IEW, but at least using the themed history writing with IEW we've really learned writing and within history too..... wonderful content.

 

I read in WTM (I think) that SWB suggests learning the structure of writing through logic stage and saving rhetoric writing until high school. I'm second guessing a move to CW in one respect because all the repitition would feel tedious to my kids. If we waited until maybe when they are in 7th and 8th or 8th and 9th maybe we would be ready for CW or something like it. (I have a younger child too who will be in 2nd next year. I'm thinking which way I should go with him now.)

 

I read in a post where you mentioned Classical Composition. I'm looking at that. Also, do you know if SWB's Writing With Ease uses Classical Writing concepts? I just wonder what will be in her logic writing once it's written and published.

 

That won't help us now. I wish there was something that we could use to bridge IEW and Classical Writing that was doable for next year.

 

Again, thank you so much for your help!!!! :001_smile:

Edited January 15, 2010 by Sweet Home Alabama

[PeterPan]

Obviously no one can decide for you when you're chosing between two good things, but I have a few observations. One, changing from passive to active is not hard, and they just need to practice more. Two, the issue with awkward vocab will improve with time too. They just need more time and maturity. Three, you said most people love CW, and that's not true. In fact, I would say most people (if I were a generalizing person, which I'm not), SURVIVE Homer. Don't imagine it as more wildly popular and well-loved than it is.

 

I think you chose IEW for some very good reasons and are getting it done. It seems to me you haven't done ENOUGH of it yet to solidify those skills. You could do another year of IEW, which just happens to shoe into your coming history, and then consider CW OB for 7th.

 

Have you considered outsourcing your IEW class? It might be they just need to hear those things afresh. On some of your issues like changing from passive to active, it's basically just an english exercise: he was stalking--> he stalked. The vocab will come with time. You're only halfway through the year. :)

[noashmam]

 

 

After I made the spreadsheet I found it had a very logical flow, and I had the tools to keep up with that movement. Now it seems fairly easy to implement.

 

Heather

 

Heather, I'm presently doing CW-Aesop with my two children. A for the 8 year old and B for the 11 year old. This is our first year and we are going slow. I really like it so far. But it is confusing at times. Is this spreadsheet something that you could share? I would appreciate any help in implementing CW. Thanks!

 

Kim

[siloam]

Heather,

 

I read a lot about CW on this forum last night. Many people love it. It teaches writing through narration vs IEW's method of writing with dressups. [i found a page describing Theon's Principals and the Six Sentence Shuffle on-line, and the thought crossed my mind how I could teach these things on my own..... (I am never able to do this successfully! :) ] I really felt the urgent need to get my kids writing and FAST because we had put it off too long in my opinion. IEW did that. CW felt slow in comparision. That's why now that we have a base, I've turned my attention back to CW.

 

Honestly I don't overly worry about getting my kids writing now, because I looked at the scores of the local High Schools and they get worse and worse in writing each year. :001_huh: I know long term CW will get my kids where I want to go, so I am fine with it taking a little longer. Generally my kids are VSL learners and a bit on the blooming late side, so again CW just fits.

 

More than that though CW just makes sense to me.

 

I'm concerned with the dress-ups from IEW, but at least using the themed history writing with IEW we've really learned writing and within history too..... wonderful content.

 

If IEW is working right now and your kids like it, then that is a strong argument not to change.

 

I read in WTM (I think) that SWB suggests learning the structure of writing through logic stage and saving rhetoric writing until high school. I'm second guessing a move to CW in one respect because all the repitition would feel tedious to my kids. If we waited until maybe when they are in 7th and 8th or 8th and 9th maybe we would be ready for CW or something like it. (I have a younger child too who will be in 2nd next year. I'm thinking which way I should go with him now.)

 

It is hard to say if it would have too much repetition or not. Once the skill has had its time in the lime light it is still carried forward in the Six Sentence Shuffle, but they don't have to work with the concept in depth. Generally I ask my dd to do one noun synonym (per sheet and there are two a week), one change between common/proper, one change between plural/singular, one change of verb tense. Just enough to keep the skill fresh but not wear it out. By the time she also does the paragraph work she has used each skill 3 times that week. Some people might do more, but my dd doesn't need it. Because she alternates weeks with CW Poetry she only does that much every other week.

 

I read in a post where you mentioned Classical Composition. I'm looking at that. Also, do you know if SWB's Writing With Ease uses Classical Writing concepts? I just wonder what will be in her logic writing once it's written and published.

I have heard that Classical Composition allows you to learn it more quickly. I believe it was designed to be a High School study, but I am not sure. I do know that CW offers classes that condense things that they don't have in book form, so that might be another option.

 

Given CW and SWB follows the same base philosophy it is possible, but the application can often be different. I am sure what ever SWB publishes will be easier to use. :D

 

For your 2nd grader you might want to look at Writing Tales, which also works off the same base philosophy, but holds the parent's hand more.

 

That won't help us now. I wish there was something that we could use to bridge IEW and Classical Writing that was doable for next year.

 

Again, thank you so much for your help!!!! :001_smile:

 

Did you know that one of IEW's advanced classes is on the progymnasmata? (The base philosophy used by CW, SWB and WT)

 

I really can't tell you which will work best for you, but if you have more questions feel free to ask!

 

Heather

 

[FlockOfSillies]

I agree with Elizabeth.

[Sweet Home Alabama]

Ladies, I am so thankful for your responses. I feel better now if we go on with IEW, and I don't feel as bad if we don't start the progym yet.

 

Hopefully I can avoid over-using the dress-ups, and we can improve on the word accuracy and vocabulary usage the rest of the year.

 

I'm still wondering how to continue writing for the long term for college prep. That may be a good title for another thread. (What if we just stayed with IEW??? Is that so bad??? )

 

Again, THANKS!!!:001_smile:

[Leila]

I agree with Elizabeth. How long have you been using IEW? With any kind of curriculum, until you stay with it for a while and use religiously, you will never be satisfied with the result. I say give it another year, practice using the dress ups and sentence openers. Use materials common to your kids or find material that they like and use that. At this point your goal is to make them write something. As they get older and read a lot of good books, they will be expose to "strong verbs/words". And they will get use to the style and structure taught in IEW. We also use the American History Based Writing book. He doesn't care much about it, so I finally agree with Mr. Puweda, use something that your kids love to read about. My son is 10 and he loves Star Trek. And he has all sorts of books about them. If we use the American History based writing, he does it because I ask him. But if I make him pick topics about Star Trek, his face lightens up and after an hour hands me a well written paragraph or two with all the dress ups and everything. So for now my goal is to make him write and cement the style and techniques. So regardless of what material we use. So my advice will be to try using materials they are interested about. And see how it works.

[PeterPan]

I've never used IEW a day in my life. ;) I looked over their stuff a LOT and made some charts and carried over the ideas to the things we did one summer. The IEW dress-ups are VERY similar to the sentence beginnings approach WT2 uses and spends a semester on, so I became very familiar with it. (I did a little WT2 co-op class one year, learned a lot, probably more than the kids!) I spent some time looking at some friends' work where they had that same vocab issue, so I knew exactly what she was talking about. But I really think it's a passing phase, a maturity thing. And I think you can either read and expose them out of it (so they just plain KNOW the more typical usage) or you guide them more carefully while they use the thesaurus. Just because you hand a kid a thesaurus doesn't mean you let any old word they pull out stand, kwim? You guide them a bit. :)

 

So I've done some CW Aesop, Imitations in Writing, WT1, WT2, Wordsmith Apprentice (didn't finish), Paragraph Writing Made Easy, and now we're in Homer A. And of course one summer we dabbled in some paragraphs that were my spinoff of an IEW-type course. I figure the writing that gets DONE is better than the writing that theoretically could get done. I think some programs guilt-trip you and may or may not be better. I get tired of the guilt-tripping. CW, SWR, we'll just make a little list of the common guilt-trippers. Great stuff, but I just get weary of it. Yes, you could use IEW all the way through and raise a great kid who is a terrific writer and does well in college. Go to the high school boards and do a search. You'll find PLENTY of success stories there. Sure you can build a case that CW is amazing, but does that mean it's the right choice for everyone and that you're wise to switch when what you're doing is WORKING? I'd have to think long and hard about that. I'd have to hold those materials in my hands and pray over them till I was sure. I'd print off the free samples online and USE them to be sure. I wouldn't just go messing up what is working.

 

PS. You'll notice I'm doing Homer now. Who knows, someday I may buy some IEW and jump in myself. :)

 

PPS. I have their Fix-it book, which is why I know how the dress-ups compare to WT2.

Edited January 16, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[SonshineLearner]

Hey All:-)

 

If you're doing IEW history based IEW, do you think it's crazy to do the CW on your "off" time? If you kinda hs all year round... you could do both. I was planning to dabble with CW for April- August. Of course, we already have to keep up with math... and hopefully do some fun science. I have a full summer planned with some "lighter" academics... (Who's kidding... keeping up with Latin, Math and Writing... maybe I'm not planning on really "light" just "different".)

 

:-)

[PeterPan]

Well I think anything torturous, dry, and drawn out is always better done on a picnic blanket outside. That said, the heat is soporific and may kill your attempts. Personally I'd flip it and do the CW during the school year, IEW during the summer. You can do a slew of IEW in less weeks and with less stress than a year or book of CW. I'm just looking at the sheer mathematics of it. You only have 14 weeks in a theoretical summer (9 when you count vacations, time off, and just get real), and there are more models than that in say Homer A. (Look at the online toc for your prospective level.) On the other hand, you have a limited number of units (types of writing) in IEW and the option to do more or less projects with each one, meaning it would be easy to tweak and make it fit your time available.

 

But do anything you want. It's certainly great, if you can get it done. Do the math and see if it works for you practically, peaceably.

[Melissa in CA]

I have absolutely nothing to add to this wonderful thread except to say....

 

OhElizabeth, would you come live with me and be my mentor? :D

[lovemykids]

Well I think anything torturous, dry, and drawn out is always better done on a picnic blanket outside. That said, the heat is soporific and may kill your attempts. Personally I'd flip it and do the CW during the school year, IEW during the summer. You can do a slew of IEW in less weeks and with less stress than a year or book of CW. I'm just looking at the sheer mathematics of it. You only have 14 weeks in a theoretical summer (9 when you count vacations, time off, and just get real), and there are more models than that in say Homer A. (Look at the online toc for your prospective level.) On the other hand, you have a limited number of units (types of writing) in IEW and the option to do more or less projects with each one, meaning it would be easy to tweak and make it fit your time available.

 

But do anything you want. It's certainly great, if you can get it done. Do the math and see if it works for you practically, peaceably.

 

OP, yes, IEW will be just fine to prep for college. :)

 

Wow, yes good food for thought Elizabeth. I am going to play around a little with the CW core book soon, in addition to what we are doing now. We are using a combination of Wordsmith, IEW, WTM, and some but not all of SL writing. This, of course, sounds terrible all written out like that, :lol:but if you are familiar with the programs at least two, if not three of the programs are very light. The way I use them, they all actually make up ONE writing program with maybe a supplement (WA).

 

Will we continue with IEW? Perhaps we will continue to do a little of it here and there. I don’t feel it is a stand alone program; I think it needs a little more. But CW on the other hand, does sound like a full program if you follow the daily lessons and do everything as planned.

 

Some people use CW but they do not use the TM or the workbook, and they use their own models. This is what I would like to do, but at this point, I am not thinking of continuing with the CW series. So, just another thought; (to anyone deliberating this) try CW in a different way on the side but keep IEW around until you see clearly which program you should drop. A bit more complicated perhaps than Elizabeth’s advice, but another option nonetheless.

 

(Practically, Peaceably, I like that!)

Edited January 16, 2010 by lovemykids
too tired to type ;)

[siloam]

Ladies, I am so thankful for your responses. I feel better now if we go on with IEW, and I don't feel as bad if we don't start the progym yet.

 

Hopefully I can avoid over-using the dress-ups, and we can improve on the word accuracy and vocabulary usage the rest of the year.

 

I'm still wondering how to continue writing for the long term for college prep. That may be a good title for another thread. (What if we just stayed with IEW??? Is that so bad??? )

 

Again, THANKS!!!:001_smile:

 

I am glad you have found the right decision.

 

Personally I think you would probably be fine sticking with IEW, but really you don't need that one answered right now. You have no clue what their needs will be in High School, so any decisions you make right now will change. It I were you I would plan on IEW through High School, and if there is a bend in the road that takes you somewhere else, then you will worry about that when you get there.

 

Heather