Question about dual enrollment/ calculus vs precalculus

[Imperfect]

I was hoping someone could help us out. My oldest 2 went down and took the college placement test for dual enrollment and tested into Calculus. They thought they might want to start with PreCalc instead- but that would mean waiting an extra semester to take Physics with Calculus (so instead of taking that in the summer, they would take it in the fall).

 

My question is- how reliable is the CPT- if they tested into Calculus should they be able to handle it? They are finishing up Precalc with Trig next month (we don't go by the standard school schedule and this is just how it worked out) using Thinkwell/ Foerster Precalc with Trig. I would hate for them to take PreCalc if they can handle Calc (which is what we are leaning towards), but if anyone has any BTDT advice it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you,

Rene

[Jenn in CA]

Our experience is that my oldest tested into Engineering Calculus (the one you need for physics w/calc) and is doing fine, without having taken college pre-calc. He completed Saxon Precalc (called Advanced Math) with a 93-95% average.

 

If they have an A in Trig/Precalc, and tested solidly, not borderline, into Calc on the placement test, they probably have a good chance of doing fine in college calc.

 

Another indicator would be success in previous college classes. I don't know that I would put my kids into Engineering Calc for their first-ever college class, if they're still in high school.

 

FYI my 16yo taking college calc spends 15-20 hrs./week in class and on homework.

 

Just some things to think about.

[Imperfect]

Thank you so much for your help. You have given us a lot to think about. It will be their first semester of dual enrollment and we are trying to figure out how many classes and which classes would be good to start with. They maxed out the CPT- which is one of the reasons I don't think they need the PreCalc, but I don't want to overwhelm them.

 

I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more questions. How many classes is your ds taking? Did he start off with just 1 or 2 classes? Did he adjust to the classes easily or did he have a hard time at first?

 

Thank you again!

Rene

[Jenn in CA]

I'm happy to share our experience as we've learned it all the hard way!

 

16yo ds (11th gr.) is in his 4th semester of college classes. Here is what he took each semester:

 

1. 1 class: easy computer programming class (super easy but got a B due to lack of study skills... good lesson) (spring of 9th grade)

2. 2 classes: harder English comp, harder programming class (tough but did well in both) (10th gr.)

3. 1 class: easy programming class (10th gr.)

4. 2 classes: 1 hard calculus, 1 easy programming (11th gr.)

 

... so you can see somewhat of a progression. Next semester will be 1 hard calc, 1 medium-hard English and possibly 1 hard chemistry. So he's doing better and ready to ramp up.

 

15yo ds is currently taking his first class, an easy Art/Photoshop class. Next semester will be English comp. I have been happy with using the first semester for one easy class to make sure they get the idea of schedules, due dates, and keeping up. Our cc also has great online classes, which are great for *me* so I can have easy access to all their class materials (everything's on the class website), due dates, etc.

 

The 16yo, however, did not start w/an online class. He didn't tell me much about what was happening in the class. He didn't have good handouts, or lost them, who knows. So tests snuck up on him, and he didn't know how to study, and I didn't know how to help him. He ended up with a 69 in the class, which by God's grace was a B!!!

 

I will always start my kids with online classes from now on! His English class the following semester was online, and it was so much better. I could easily see the whole syllabus and all assignments, go over due dates, how long to allow for studying and assignments, and so forth.

 

Testing was new for my kids, the whole idea of "over-learning" and being able to reproduce material for a test, not just recognize it. They would say, "I understand everything in my notes" but that's not the same as being able to do a problem during a test. So now, in his 4th semester of CC, he's getting an A in calculus and definitely has learned how to study.

 

Hope that helps!

[Imperfect]

Wow, that was so helpful! Thank you! I really wish we had started dual enrollment sooner- but now I know for my next 3 :)

 

You have given us a lot to think about and discuss this weekend. It is nice to find people who have been there to offer advice- hopefully I will be able to help others out in a few years :001_smile:

 

Have a great Thanksgiving!

Rene

[Cedarmom]

If they tested into it, they should be fine. I think that it would be frustrating to have to do precalc and review.

[outtamyshell]

I would recommend talking to both teachers about the pre-requisites for the class and thoroughly going through the pre-requisite books with your child to make sure he has the background to do well in the course. I've never managed to do this very well. We are always pressed for time and have a difficult time getting a hold of professors.

 

My dd switched math programs every year in highschool (public school, saxon, CC, University & online courses). At the CC, she tested into into Calculus when she hadn't even taken any Trig. We enrolled her in the class she had tested out of (Pre-Calc Trig), and it was a challenge for a number of reasons. There was a lot to get used to with group assignments, how to be pro-active with college instructors, and how to make use of your resources. By the time I realized there was a problem, it was too late. Strangely, the teacher was out of town and unavailable between two, big group assignments. DD's group did poorly on the first project and didn't have an opportunity to get on the right track before the second project was due. It's a very strange experience, indeed, to watch your baby meet with students who are the age of your coworkers.

 

Every year there are lessons to learn. This year we have discovered that DD's learning style works better for Calculus in a class of 400+ than it does for an online course. This kid's brain is simply not wired for online courses.

 

I don't know if my rambling is helpful or not. But I do wish I would have taken the time to go through the chapters of the pre-requ books and meet with the teacher before enrolling her in CC or Univ courses.

Edited November 24, 2009 by outtamyshell

[Imperfect]

Cedarmom,

 

That is what we were thinking also. Now we just need to figure out how many classes and which ones to take for their first semester.

 

Thank you!

Rene

[Imperfect]

outtamyshell,

 

I understand what you are saying- I don't think we would want to do online math courses- it just seems like it would be a lot harder. I also plan on getting their textbooks as soon as the teachers post what they are using so that we can go over some of it before they start the class. The college they will be attending uses the Thinkwell for the online PreCalc and so I feel pretty conifdent that they have covered everything they need to know to do well in Calc (doesn't mean I'm not still nervous for them lol :) ).

 

We will have to think about going down and meeting the teachers- they have their emails listed on their staff website so I may just email them instead. Something to think about.

 

Thank you!

Rene

[G5052]

But I know as an adjunct community college professor myself, I think most dual enrollment homeschooled kids do better starting with single class in an area of strength as Jenn described. Sometimes that means stepping back and redoing a subject, and sometimes that means going ahead with an tougher class that they're motivated to take. A college class can be quite a bit more work, and you have to decide if it's reasonable to spend that much time on a single subject or if you're better off starting more slowly.

 

I really don't think there's an absolute formula for this. I've talked to the folks that advise the dual enrollment students, and they generally lean on the homeschool parent's judgment to make the final call.

 

And I really would advise a face-to-face with the professor very SOON. Some professors I know don't respond to outside emails, some are charming online and poor in the classroom, and some have a blantant dislike of homeschooled students. I'd be prepared to back off if you don't like the professor. Yes, later on they won't have this advantage, but I think it's important to pre-screen the professor for first-time dual enrollment. I'm always very willing to do this, and actually met with a mom and dual enrollment student two weeks ago and they decided to go with a different class after my discussion with them.;)

[LoriM]

My daughter graduates from the university this month at age 20 with a BA in mathematics (minor in art), summa cum laude. She started out taking 13 semester hours in her first semester as a 16yo dual enrolled student. She took English 111, Chemistry 131/131A (lab), College Algebra and Spanish 111 her first semester.

 

We chose to "regress" to College Algebra even though she had completed a year of Calculus at home with me. At the time, like most 16yo she had no idea what she might major in eventually (but thought it would be art), and we planned our courses to fit the requirements of the General Education Foundation coursework required for any major. She went on to complete her AA in high school with 66 hours of college courses completed before high school graduation at age 18.

 

Anyway, here she is four years later, with all the math one can imagine under her belt, and a math degree that started off with College Algebra. She is quick to advise other people that unless you have "mad skills" in algebra (her term--LOL) it's always wise to do a strong review at a college pace before pressing on into the Calculus sequence. In hindsight, she probably would have done just fine with PreCalc as her first course, but it sure was nice for her to learn to manage the homework pace and the writing requirements and the translation work and the lab hours with material that she understood pretty well. I think it was a very gentle landing into college coursework.

 

Anyway, she's held onto that 4.0 all the way through, which is something I certainly didn't do. And I made the mistake of jumping straight into the Calculus sequence long, long ago when I started off as a Chemical Engineering major... GRIN.

 

Lori

[Brigid in NC]

Our experience with the CC testing process was different from some others. My ds had completed Algebra II, and after taking the placement test, the CC folks said he placed out of precalculus and into calculus. :ohmy: That, of course, seemed way too ambitious, and a scary thought for his very first CC course ever.

 

After looking at the precalc textbook at the bookstore, we determined that he could probably skip the first semester of the two-semester precalc sequence, but since this would be his very first CC course, we opted for the easier route. He took Precalculus/Algebra as a summer class, and then Precalculus/Trig in the fall.

 

This helped him ease into the CC environment. The first class was not rigorous, but did introduce material that he had not had. Most importantly,

he learned a LOT about how to use a graphing calculator. As it turned out, the second semester of precalc was VERY challenging -- a long-time instructor who cut students no slack. If my ds had started there, as his very first CC course, I think it would not have been pretty. His very first exam grade was a 67%. :blink: He worked very, very hard, and ended up with an A. The point here, is if he had gone straight into calculus, as the CC testing indicated, I am sure that it would have been a disaster. I have often wondered how many kids struggle or fail because of CC test results that inflate reality.

 

I would consider the benefits of easing into the CC environment. I would look carefully at the textbook at the student store, and determine how much is new material, and how much looks like review. I'd also remember that there is a whole lot of learning that goes on that first semester -- much more than just the class content, but working independently, working in groups, taking notes, managing the workload (including staying on top homework that doesn't have to be turned in for a grade), etc.

 

CC courses have been a wonderful option for us. Good luck with your decision, and best of luck to your ds! :)

~Brigid

Edited November 24, 2009 by Brigid in NC

[Nan in Mass]

My older one tested into pre-calc when he was part way through NEM2. We were proud of him, but thought that was not a good placement. We had him finish NEM2, NEM3, and part of NEM4 before he took pre-calc at CC. It was a good thing we did. He still struggled through pre-calc. He probably would have struggled anyway, as long as any of the material was new, because he always struggles with math. I certainly didn't think his basic algebra skills were good enough to do pre-calc, though. At that point, I don't think he had even had the slope-intercept form of a line yet, or negative or fractional exponants. We were glad he finished the year and took another year at home before trying. Meanwhile, we signed him up for two easy classes his first semester so he could get used to being back in a classroom and get used to college. The next semester, he took a slightly harder class. And then he took Intro Chem 1+2, and Pre-calc 1+2 his senior year. We selected his prof's very carefully, especially at the beginning. The CC worked with us to find good beginning classes and good beginning profs. Their advice was to start with something easy and particularly interesting to the child, not to do online classes, and to pick something that met three times a week. They said high schoolers probably don't want to do more than three classes per semester, and if they aren't doing school at home as well, that less than three classes per semester tends also to be a bad idea (too easy to ignore school). He began as a non-matriculated student, but senior year we gave them his transcript and they matriculated him so he could have some of his classes paid for by the state.

 

The younger one is more complicated and I still haven't figured out what we are going to do with him. He is in 9th now, and working on NEM3/NAM. He probably will test into at least pre-calc at the end of the year. He probably should be in pre-calc unless we have time to do the subjects in Dolciani Algebra 2 that don't appear in NEM3 and the first half of NAM. So one scenario is to have him take CC pre-calc and chem in 10th, calc 1+2 and physics 1+2 in 11th, and calc3+? and physics 3+? in 12th. That sounds pretty stiff to us and doesn't leave him either room to get his feet wet with an easy class, or room to go peacewalking in 10th (if he wants to) before being tied down to a CC schedule. We've thought about doing things out of sync and skipping the spring of 10th semester, but there aren't as many sections of the classes if you take them out of sync. We've thought about having him do NEM4 and finish NAM with me in 10th while doing more natural history and work on his own experiments and then just starting in 11th with chem/pre-calc, but that has its problems, too. I think I'm just going to take his math books in to the CC and ask where is a good point to switch to CC math, and which will make him desirable to engineering schools (as a freshman) but not overwhelm him. We'll ask about how to best fit in the peacewalking, too, in case he wants to keep doing that. We'll see what happens. I'm currently thinking that he should take an easy, get-used-to-college class next fall. I think that first easy class is going to involve lots of learning for this child, because he hasn't been in a classroom since kindergarten. The older one was in elementary school through 4th grade, so he has a better idea of how school works. There were so many things for him to learn, too. He's still now, in his third year of college work (2 CC and 1 regular) struggling to keep track of his grades, deal with his advisor, get help from his profs, read his syllabus, study, balance his classes, and things like that. At the beginning, he had to learn how to get milk out of a "cow", find quiet places to study between classes, get a parking sticker, buy books, sign up for classes, transfer a paper from his laptop to his prof, and many other small things. I really want that first class to be easy for my youngest.

 

-Nan

[HeidiD]

I was hoping someone could help us out. My oldest 2 went down and took the college placement test for dual enrollment and tested into Calculus. They thought they might want to start with PreCalc instead- but that would mean waiting an extra semester to take Physics with Calculus (so instead of taking that in the summer, they would take it in the fall).

 

My question is- how reliable is the CPT- if they tested into Calculus should they be able to handle it? They are finishing up Precalc with Trig next month (we don't go by the standard school schedule and this is just how it worked out) using Thinkwell/ Foerster Precalc with Trig. I would hate for them to take PreCalc if they can handle Calc (which is what we are leaning towards), but if anyone has any BTDT advice it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you,

Rene

 

I guess it depends on your goals. I'm sure they could handle it, but they'll likely get a higher grade in calculus if they start with pre-calc.

 

I think it might also depend on the textbook they'd use for calculus. My son is currently taking a calculus course using Stewart, and there seems to be a big jump in the learning curve between his pre-calc course (Blitzer) and Stewart calculus, whereas some texts, such as Saxon, contain more review of pre-calc before moving into calculus. If he had skipped pre-calc, I think he would have been in way over his head.

[Nan in Mass]

Look at the book in the college bookstore! What a good idea!

 

Yes - working in groups, homework that doesn't have to be turned in for a grade, learning to use a graphing calculator - these were all things my son had to learn, too.

[8filltheheart]

My oldest completed pre-cal at home (actually with a private tutor ;) ). We made the decision for him to dual enroll in 2nd semester pre-cal instead of jumping straight in cal. He did extremely well and has in all of his subsequent math courses.

 

I am glad we followed this route.