Writing evaluation, could use some help...

[Deece in MN]

My dd was given an assignment to write a chronological paragraph. She needs some work on basic paragraph structure. She does not like to write, but she does try.

I need some help determining what parts of her paragraph are wandering away from the topic. I know she has sentence structure issues and I can deal with those (I have not gone over her writing with her yet because I need help in this other area). I am just not sure if some of th sentences can be left in or if they are too off topic.

Again, it is supposed to be a chronological paragraph on a topic of her choice. She choose the mound Indians (she is reading about them in history).

Here is her paragraph exactly as she typed it:

 

The Mound Indians

I have started learning about the first Americans and the mound Indians interested me a lot. About 2,500 years ago is the beginning of the mound Indians called Adenas lived. They had built cone-shaped mounds for the dead and animal shaped ones for what scientist believe to have had religious meaning. They were hunters and gatherers who lived on fish, game, nuts and berries the Adenas did grow some crops. Around 2,000 years ago things got interesting when new people came to the Adenas land we do not know if things were peaceful or if there were wars. We call the Indians in this time are called the Hopewell Indians. They were traders and made beautiful artifacts that they left in the mounds such as jewelry and tools. The Hopewell people grew some crops and they were a very healthy people. About 1,000 things started to change. Corn came from Mexico and with the corn the mound builders became farmers. We call them the Mississippian Indians. There cities grew large and highly organized governments with rulers that acted like gods. The mounds changed too they became bigger and harder to make and the Mississippians put temples and there leaders homes on top of them. The Mississippians had a diet based on corn they were less healthy then the Hopewell Indians there skeletons show diseases. They seemed to have lost interest in making stone carvings, jewelry and other things like that. I hope that the mound Indians have interested you as much as they have been for me.

 

Ok. I have not had her read it out loud at this point. That will help to correct many of the structural and grammatical errors (she tends to skip the self-editing). I am feeling like the detail she went into is veering away from the assignment. I think part of the problem is she doesn't have a good topic sentence to help keep her on track. I want to be careful not to over correct this attempt though because she will be discouraged about her writing ability.

 

Anyway, any suggestions are appreciated. Oh, she is 13 and has done writing before (IEW, Write With the Best, etc.). I do think she needs to write more which is why we are working through A Writer's Guide to Powerful Paragraphs which is where this assignment is from.

Thanks!

[8filltheheart]

I am reluctant to comment too much.

 

Since there is no topic sentence, it is difficult to determine what should be included and what shouldn't. Creating a cohesive contention that drives the content of the entire assignment is the most critical step in writing.

 

She did follow a chronology, so that is a positive.

 

In the future, until her writing skills have improved, I would recommend helping her narrow down her topic by giving her clearer insight into what her topic sentence should be and how to make sure that all information is directly related to that sole purpose.

[Deece in MN]

Thanks. I had only read through this quickly Friday evening and it wasn't until I was typing it now that I realized she really didn't have a topic sentence. I will help her develop a topic sentence so we can decide together what parts are relevant to the topic and which are not.

While we have worked on writing over the years, it obviously hasn't been enough. I am making a commitment this year to regular, consistent writing practice. It will be interesting! :)

[partyof5]

Deece,

There are certainly some facts in this paragraph & it has potential here & there, but I agree with momof7 that it's hard to comment further without a clear topic sentence.

 

I am also wondering about your IEW experience. We used that here for a few years & my oldest dd benefitted from learning to key-word outline from a non-fiction source. With just the outline in front of her, she would re-write in her own words, and then we had specific "dress-ups" to add. I'm wondering if you have gone through that process, and if you are no longer using it for a reason? It would seem to me that the conversational nature of this sample are not typical results of IEW. It also has review checklists to help the student self-edit.

 

That said, I'm not at all familiar with your current program to know if there are completely different goals you are trying to achieve than what I am addressing.

 

Lastly, you mentioned not wanting to discourage her attempts at writing, but I would like to gently point out that at 13, I would think it's time to expect more from her & to require the self-editing part, for example. I don't mean for that to sound harsh, but I do feel that we sometimes try to walk the Mom/Teacher tightrope to the detriment of our children. I have done it & probably still do! If I were you I would be putting on the Teacher hat & requiring more of her. Is she a bad writer? No. Does she have room to grow? Yes. Who doesn't really? That is where I place the emphasis when I am trying to get more from my own girls...effort towards improvement is always more important than perfection.

 

I wish you all the best as you try to incorporate more writing into the year!

[Deece in MN]

Thanks, I appreciate the comments and stating what I need to hear.

 

Yes, we worked through IEW with key-word outlines and dress-ups and checklists, etc. She can do this, I just didn't specify that she should do this for this assignment.

 

The book we are using was purchased from IEW and there are lesson plans to follow. This is the first assignment from the book.

 

I am unsure if I want to continue with the IEW model so that is partly why I didn't require the use of the key-word outline for this. There are things I like about IEW, but I am not completely sold on it after having used it.

 

I did sit down with her about an hour or so ago and had her read the paragraph to me. She knew that there were problems with the sentence structure. We also talked about a topic sentence. We are going to work on these things tomorrow, but she took my comments better than I expected.

 

Anyway, thanks. This year we will be focusing on writing and hopefully will see some improvement by the end of the year.

[8filltheheart]

Deece,

 

Melissa stated very gently some of the thoughts I have. Since you are focusing on writing this year, I am sure your dd will show the progress you are hoping to see.

 

I'm not sure if I should comment about the expectations of an average 13 yr old or not b/c I don't want to discourage you. But, on a completely objective level, a 13 yr old should be able to write multiple paragraph papers and even 5+ pg research papers.

 

It is not incomprehensible that your dd can make that much progress in a single yr. But, it will take critical evaluations of her writing. Progress will be more limited if she is unaware of the weakenesses and exactly what steps need to be taken in order to correct/improve them. That doesn't mean that you don't note her strengths. You definitely do.

 

I would evaluate the writing with her. (I usually do a 2 step evaluation with my kids........one for content and one for sentence structure/grammar/mechanics.) I would have her write everything double-spaced so that there is room for comments during your evaluations. Then I would discuss at length what she can do to improve that assignment and have her re-write it incorporating what you have discussed/noted. Revising/editing work is often more beneficial in improving their writing that initial assignments.

 

Keep up the effort!! Best wishes. :)

[Deece in MN]

Momof7, don't worry about discouraging me. I know we need to step things up.

She has written a handful of multi-paragraph papers while working through IEW the past couple years. I am feeling like IEW is not the approach I want to follow. I also feel like her basic structures are in need of improving which is why we are working on single paragraphs right now.

The longest paper she has written up to this point is a two page paper, so by the end of the year I would like to see her up to a 4-6 page paper.

I am sorry that I don't recall this, but do you use a writing program as a basis for your writing instruction?

I feel like a little hand holding would be nice, but I don't want to make a huge investment again (like IEW). Even a good reference or two for myself would be nice.

Anyway, I do appreciate your comments and suggestions. Thanks!

[partyof5]

The book we are using was purchased from IEW and there are lesson plans to follow. This is the first assignment from the book.

 

I am unsure if I want to continue with the IEW model so that is partly why I didn't require the use of the key-word outline for this. There are things I like about IEW, but I am not completely sold on it after having used it.

 

 

Deece,

I posted earlier and then went out for hours, which I hate to do after commenting on someone's academic concerns! Anyway, let me first say that I do not still use IEW...there was too much "formula" to it for me, although I do still require keywording skills & occasional dress-ups, because I think it's a good exercise. I have moved to another pricey program which I love, Classical Writing, and we can weave in our favorite IEW skills however I see fit. This would be true of other programs I'm sure too, and without lots of additional expense. I've read a lot on these boards about great writing programs if you are looking to make a change.

 

Meanwhile, I do a lot of what momof7 does in terms of double spacing, focusing on content first, then mechanics second, and I do think a student checklist of some kind gives her some ownership of the process while keeping your goals at the forefront.

 

I am confident you can see the changes you hope for with your level of dedication to the task!

[Deece in MN]

Melissa,

Thank you for your supportive comments. I am looking into some other writing programs to see if something lines up with what I am hoping to accomplish. I am feeling better about things and I think we will see some progress this year. :)

[Colleen in NS]

I also feel like her basic structures are in need of improving which is why we are working on single paragraphs right now.

 

If I recall correctly, you are a poster who likes WTM recommended methods? I was wondering if you have taken her through the process of teaching her to outline from well-written paragraphs from her non-fiction reading, and then rewriting from those outlines (once she has gotten comfortable with 3-level outlining). I heard SWB speak on this last May, and from what I understand (and am starting to see with my 11yo), the whole process of outlining (and she did recommend sentence outlines, not KWO - to force the student to think all the way through the idea and put it into words right away - makes later rewriting easier) from someone's writing is to help the student analyze what went into a good paragraph - figure out what the main idea was, figure out what the related details were and how they were organized in the paragraph, eliminate the unnecessary details....all part of learning paragraph structure. It's like you get tons of practice studying other paragraphs of good authors, before you get around to writing your own. By the time you get to writing your own, if you've practiced/studied by outlining and rewriting from others, you develop a sense of how various types of paragraphs can be structured. This sense can be transferred to your own writing later. I liked SWB's ideas on this - it took the mystery out of teaching writing for me.

 

So, since you mentioned concern about straying from the topic or not really knowing what the topic is, perhaps this process would help. Also, just to encourage you, she really stressed helping a child nail down the basics of writing, and then practicing paragraph structure, before requiring them to write multiple paragraphs/pages. I could never figure out how I would teach writing multiple paragraphs on something, until she talked about this outlining/rewriting thing. Now I think I get it - later, when my kids have had practice rewriting from outlines, I will be able to teach them how to organize their *own* outlines on what they want to say (by reading, taking notes, and organizing their thoughts into logical order), and then saying, "OK, you've just written an outline of your own thoughts, now rewrite from it" and voila, multiple paragraphs/pages. Then on those, we can practice the various things they learn from R&S writing lessons or a later rhetoric course, about types of paragraphs, types of arguments, etc..

 

Also, she didn't recommend having the child write more than two pages at a time - she talked about research papers for high school, but even those were gradually built up starting from four pages.

 

hth

Edited November 10, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[Deece in MN]

Colleen,

Thank you for this. No, I haven't done the outlining as laid out in WTM, but that makes sense. I don't care for the KWO format and I think my dd would do better with the more traditional outline. I have to pull out my WTM book and look at the writing sections again. I think this would give us a good starting point. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen,

Thank you for this. No, I haven't done the outlining as laid out in WTM, but that makes sense. I don't care for the KWO format and I think my dd would do better with the more traditional outline. I have to pull out my WTM book and look at the writing sections again. I think this would give us a good starting point. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

I forgot to mention that the new WTM has *excellent* instructions on how to teach outlining. Way better than previous versions. They are in the logic stage history section.

[Deece in MN]

I forgot to mention that the new WTM has *excellent* instructions on how to teach outlining. Way better than previous versions. They are in the logic stage history section.

 

Oh, good, a valid excuse to get the new edition! :D

[8filltheheart]

Momof7, don't worry about discouraging me. I know we need to step things up.

She has written a handful of multi-paragraph papers while working through IEW the past couple years. I am feeling like IEW is not the approach I want to follow. I also feel like her basic structures are in need of improving which is why we are working on single paragraphs right now.

The longest paper she has written up to this point is a two page paper, so by the end of the year I would like to see her up to a 4-6 page paper.

I am sorry that I don't recall this, but do you use a writing program as a basis for your writing instruction?

I feel like a little hand holding would be nice, but I don't want to make a huge investment again (like IEW). Even a good reference or two for myself would be nice.

Anyway, I do appreciate your comments and suggestions. Thanks!

 

I am not a fan of IEW, either.

 

FWIW, I would not have your dd progressing beyond a paragraph until she masters paragraph basics. Longer writing needs to built on that framework.

 

I have never found a writing program that I "fully" like. I pull instruction from programs like Put That in Writing, Grammar for Writing (http://www.sadlier-oxford.com/grammar/), etc. I never use their writing assignments. I simply use their instruction. The basis for most of my kids writing instruction is the evaluation/revising time where we sit and evaluate their assignments. PTIW incorporates lots of student examples that we do the same process with. It is much easier for them to be critical in evaluating someone else's writing than their own. It allows the same sort of conversations to then take place when critiquing their assignments. PTIW also focuses on single paragraph writing.

 

FWIW........I do believe that 7th and 8th graders should be able to write research papers. The difference between what I expect in middle school vs. high school is content. 7th and 8th graders are learning the process of collecting notes, organizing, and simply writing a factual type paper. High school students, on the other hand, should be proving a position based on their research.

 

My ultimate philosophy is that the fundamental basics of writing should be mastered prior to high school so that in high school they are focusing on their argument, not how to write.

[Deece in MN]

Momof7, thank you for the suggestions. I really appreciate them!

[Robin in DFW]

Paragraph Writing Made Easy. It is a fairly thin book that concisely covers paragraph writing. I haven't used it yet, but have thoroughly read through it. I will be trying it with my son starting tomorrow. I think it might be just the thing to help him understand the point of a paragraph. And, there are not an excessive amount of lessons.

 

He's done some copywork, dictation and lots of narration over the past few years. He is of the rambling narration variety of young writers. I am hoping this will help him stop the rambling and focus on ONE topic when narrating rather than trying to rewrite the whole reading assignment!!! He thinks he needs to retell EVERYTHING he read.

 

Don't be discouraged. My son is 12, 7th grade, and he is just now ready to do this. Not all 7th and 8th graders can write a research paper. :001_smile:

 

My girls were definitely more fluent with writing at an earlier age. Boys are a different animal entirely. Be gentle and patient. He will come around in his own time.

 

Robin