Dictation - how is it done and why do some of us make it complicated?

[Night Elf]

I posted 2 notes separately but somehow they got combined. Please read my questions about dication in this first note, and about narration & summaries in the 2nd note. Thanks!

 

I've been on the WTM boards for about 6 or 7 years. I've tried dictation several times over those years. I've asked this questions and yet I am still not sure of the answer.

 

My ds13 has always been great with spelling and punctuation. Dictation was a no-brainer for him. Even has a 2nd grader, he would complete the dictation without ever needing to look at the original passage. So I always thought dictation was useless. But what about the memory aspect? I remember the early stages of dictation when you are doling out just a few words at a time.

 

But what about the direction to dictate 2 or 3 sentences? Are we talking about me saying 3 sentences aloud, repeating those 3 sentences, and then me having my child write all 3 sentences independently without me repeating the sentences? This has been my stumbling block. If my son's only issue is keeping something in memory, wouldn't memorizing poems and literature passages be more helpful?

Edited September 1, 2009 by Night Elf
2 posts on different subjects combined

[Night Elf]

I remember doing narration with my children when they were in the early elementary grades. I remember them being so easy that they quickly moved into summarizing small stories by writing a paragraph. But we never moved beyond that. What kind of summarizing should a 6th and 8th grader be doing? I know outlining is thrown in there somewhere. It seems like a strange activity as the child's reading becomes more complex. For example, can a student outline a chapter from one of the Story of the World books? What is the goal of outlining and summarizing? How do I figure out my children's abilities to do these things?

 

I've lost my Writing cd that SWB recorded. I listened to it many times. I've read and reread the language arts sections of the WTM board. Why is this information not sticking in MY head? How can I teach my children when I keep losing sight of the how, why, when, and where summarizing is done?

 

I wish I could go back and start WTM over again with grade 1, the binders, and the simple directions. :tongue_smilie:

[lisabees]

So glad you're asking this question since I'm new to dictation.

 

I'll tell you what I do. We use Spelling Wisdom. In the beginning of the book, there are simpler passages (3,4,5 sentences moving up to several paragraphs by the end of the book). Because they are shorter, we do the dictation in one day.

 

Ds reads the passage to himself, then aloud. We discuss the title and author. We discuss the author and usually look him up on online for a brief intro. There are always vocab words he doesn't know, so he looks those up in the dictionary. Then, we talk about the meaning of the passage. Ds will then look at the passage until he is comfortable with punctuation (not easy in Spelling Wisdom, as the selections are usually poetic and old school) and spellings.

 

Then, I read it aloud, one phrase at time, starting with the title and author. As I go on, I will repeat phrases from the beginning. For me, it is not about the memory. Ds actually has a low working memory; we are working on that in other ways.

 

Now, I can see if you are doing "modern", everyday sentences, you may not feel the need to continue with a good speller. If you make the passages longer and more complicated, it would work. That is why I chose something that is all planned out for me.

 

Looking forward to hearing what others do...

 

Lisa

[Carrie12345]

I've been on the WTM boards for about 6 or 7 years. I've tried dictation several times over those years. I've asked this questions and yet I am still not sure of the answer.

 

My ds13 has always been great with spelling and punctuation. Dictation was a no-brainer for him. Even has a 2nd grader, he would complete the dictation without ever needing to look at the original passage. So I always thought dictation was useless. But what about the memory aspect? I remember the early stages of dictation when you are doling out just a few words at a time.

 

But what about the direction to dictate 2 or 3 sentences? Are we talking about me saying 3 sentences aloud, repeating those 3 sentences, and then me having my child write all 3 sentences independently without me repeating the sentences? This has been my stumbling block. If my son's only issue is keeping something in memory, wouldn't memorizing poems and literature passages be more helpful?

 

My understanding (and we are brand new to WWE, so take it for what it's worth) is that dictation (as you described it in your last paragraph) is recommended in order to train the student to keep clear, complete thoughts in their mind while simultaneously writing those thoughts down.

 

In the WWE book, SWB refers to children giving wonderful answers and than asking "What did I just say?" because they can't hold the thought. Or they may loose their thought while focusing on the pysical act of writing.

 

I'm notorious for thinking or saying something beautiful and having it fly right out of my head before getting it on paper. Blech!

[Night Elf]

Hmm.. I posted these two notes separately because I feel they deal with separate issues. Now people are going to miss the second one! *sigh*

[Colleen in NS]

But what about the direction to dictate 2 or 3 sentences? Are we talking about me saying 3 sentences aloud, repeating those 3 sentences, and then me having my child write all 3 sentences independently without me repeating the sentences? This has been my stumbling block. If my son's only issue is keeping something in memory, wouldn't memorizing poems and literature passages be more helpful?

 

Yes, dictating 2 or 3 sentences (with as many words total as you think he is capable of), repeating 2 or 3 times, having him repeat it back to you, and then having him write as much as he can remember before you prompt him again. Poems and lit. passages are good to use because of the nice sentence structures and vocabulary, but also regular ole sentences from history and science, because it will help him learn to remember what is "in his head" when he wants to write by himself later on about a history or science chapter for a narration.

 

What kind of summarizing should a 6th and 8th grader be doing? I know outlining is thrown in there somewhere. It seems like a strange activity as the child's reading becomes more complex. For example, can a student outline a chapter from one of the Story of the World books? What is the goal of outlining and summarizing? How do I figure out my children's abilities to do these things?

 

Ideally (this is what I learned from SWB's workshops) a child would be able to read a couple of chapters and summarize them in 3-5 sentences before moving on to learning to outline. The goal is to be able to pick out the main storyline or the main details of a non-fiction passage. The goal of outlining is to help the child analyze a piece of non-fiction writing and rank the ideas in a logical order (and later he will rewrite an essay from this outline, to practice putting those ideas back "together" logically). It all helps the child to think clearly so he can later organize his own ideas into his own longer compositions.

 

Yes, he can outline from SOTW - he can outline from *any* good piece of non-fiction writing - you choose depending on what you are studying. I don't know that I'd have a child outline a whole chapter of SOTW yet, though, if he is just starting out. Just a few paragraphs.

 

How do you figure it out? First see if he can summarize, by himself and in writing, a chapter or two from a book. If that is easy, have him continue to practice that once or twice a week while he learns to outline. Start with learning to find the main idea of a paragraph. After some time when that is easy, teach him to find the details that directly support the main idea, and so on. The new WTM has excellent instructions on how to do this.

 

hth