Anyone on here do medical research and/or genetic engineering?

[creekland]

If anyone on here is in (or has experience with) medical research and/or genetic engineering (plant, animal, or disease related), would you mind sharing some info with a mom who just realized how serious her soon to be 10th grader is about wanting to go into the field? I just finished reading a term paper he wrote about genetic engineering and was impressed with what he's done for research, etc. (16 pages! - assignment from his English tutor was for 7 - 8 pages). It does make me think he is serious about it all - and he has the academic talent to get there (via national test results).

 

I'm interested in word of mouth (from experience) colleges to be looking at (eastern US please) or any general thoughts from people already in the field. From visiting colleges with his older brother, he knows he wants a small college and not a big university (if possible). Either Christian or secular is fine - we're not limited.

 

Hubby and I are both science folks, but Civil Engineering and Physics... hardly the same field.

 

Any thoughts are welcome - either on here or via pm. We do not live in an area where we can find a mentor or shadowing experience locally.

[Janna]

I have a good friend who works in a genetic research lab - is that the same area you're talking about? I can ask her anything you'd like me too, if you want. I know that she is way into chemistry if that means anything to you....

[creekland]

I have a good friend who works in a genetic research lab - is that the same area you're talking about? I can ask her anything you'd like me too, if you want. I know that she is way into chemistry if that means anything to you....

 

Yes, that would be right in line with his thoughts. If you get a chance, a couple of questions that come to mind would include classes to take in high school (beyond the obvious... he's done Bio and will do Chem next year - what beyond that? Should I look for a Biochem? Or do advanced versions of either? Or stick with Physics and leave the others for college?).

 

Then I'd be interested in some colleges she would recommend considering for his undergraduate studies based on people she works with or knows about that do well in the field. Davidson (NC) did some of the studies in his research paper, so that one comes to mind via that source, but that's about all I have to go on so far. I could comb his paper more carefully... but I've often found word of mouth from those in the field is a great source.

 

When I talked with him about it earlier he said he really wants to go into medical research of some sort - and genetic engineering (disease style) sounds very appealing, but of course, he hasn't had much of an actual look into the various opportunities. He might need to get some of that in college.

[jplain]

That was my field, pre-kids.

 

I went to a mid-size liberal arts university with a good regional reputation, but on the national stage it is unknown. I wasn't able to do research on campus as an undergrad, which was unfortunate. However, I did volunteer in a lab at a larger university the summer after my freshman year, I participated in summer research programs at other universities after my soph and junior years, and after my senior year I interned at a local biotech company.

 

Though I had excellent grades and GRE scores, I was still shocked that I was accepted to all of the PhD programs I applied to. I aimed high, and I figured I had no chance against undergrads from Harvard, MIT, etc. Having applied for and been granted a predoctoral fellowship probably helped, but lots of my classmates who didn't have fellowships were of similar backgrounds: very strong students who came from relatively unknown schools with not much research going on.

 

One good thing about grad school in the sciences is that students don't necessarily have to go into debt. Grad school in biology is usually free for students (tuition and benefits paid for by department and/or advisor), and students typically get a stipend as well. At the time I was in grad school, my stipend was in the $24K range, which was enough to live on in a big city as long as one had roommates.

 

Courses to look at now: it would definitely be helpful for him to get some exposure to genetics, biochemistry, cell biology, molecular biology, and physiology. If you're looking for a formal curriculum, biochemistry or physiology would both be good choices. Edited again to add that none of this is critical to undergraduate success, but the exposure could help him either solidify or reconsider his commitment to pursuing biology as a career.

 

He could start by spending some time with a solid general biology text. Life by Purves/Orians/Heller (edited to add, Sadava is now the first author) is a good choice, as it is used in freshman level undergrad courses. It spells things out enough that a motivated high school student would probably be able to understand it all. The MIT open courseware might also be of use: link.

 

Microbiology isn't as important at this point. It would be a good idea to put some effort into a first glance at immunlogy, because that's one of those fields that you don't really understand until your third time through it. A short book on neurology (there are lots of them) could be a lot of fun too.

 

When looking at colleges, my advice would be to look for schools whose biology departments allow their undergrads to get into labs early, by the end of freshman year if possible. Ask to talk to some of those younger undergrads, because some schools will say "Oh yes, you can do research with us!" and then it turns out there really aren't any spots available. At some schools the labs are too crowded and all the good stuff goes to grad students, so a smaller university or college may be a better choice. On the other hand, huge state schools often have plenty of room for undergrads in labs, so there's no way to generalize.

 

If you have a research university nearby, try to make some contacts now and see if you can get your son in now on a volunteer basis a few hours a week.

 

About those summer research programs during college:

Hopefully he'll have the option of working in a lab at his school during the summer, but if not, NSF summer research programs are a decent alternative. The NSF sponsors (or used to sponsor) internship programs at many universities around the country, and typically the students are provided with dorm housing and a stipend. I had to find these opportunities on my own though, because they weren't well advertised.

 

Must get going, but if I think of anything else I'll come back!

Edited June 19, 2009 by jplain

[Soph the vet]

I went to UCONN for undergrad and did some really cool (cutting edge at the time mid-80's) research in Lymes Disease. My roommate went on to do a PhD at Harvard in Biochem, where she still is (I think) and I went on to veterinary school. You don't need to do anything in high school beyond the standard bio, chem, physics, and maybe a special interest or agricultural class especially if he is interested in genetic engineering. Once he is in college he will have plenty of biochem, genetics, molecular bio, etc. to fill his time. Getting a research position in undergrad will give him some exposure to research in general. Sometimes going to an undergrad that has a medical school or vet school will have more opportunities for undergrads to work in more specialized departments. And don't rule out the midwest for medical research. Minnesota is one of the best states for medical research and biomedical device companies, not to mention the Mayo Clinic.

[cmarango]

I was a biochem major in undergrad and received my Ph.D. in radiation oncology (worked mainly on preclinical drugs).

 

I would say go ahead with the physics, expecially if there is a chance to AP or SAT II test out of it for college. Actually, I would say try to test out of almost all of the basic science courses in high school since that frees up a lot of time to pursue other interests.

 

My favorite courses were: physiology, vertebrate anatomy, eukaryotic cell/molecular biology, and analytical chemistry. I never wanted nor had to take a microbiology course. I agree that immunology is probably better left for college. Also, an emphasis on math and statistics is quite beneficial.

 

I think it would be helpful for your child to know if they enjoy the chemistry or the biology side more. Many schools out there pick a particular emphasis in their biochemistry majors, if that is the route to be taken. Honestly, though, any pre-med track should fulfill all requirements for grad school.

 

Undergraduate research is also helpful, but not entirely necessary. I know that at UF some researchers even allow highly motivated high schoolers to dabble in a summer project.

 

Christina

[creekland]

Many thanks to all for your helpful advice! Unfortunately, we don't live near a big university nor smaller college that offers this. We also don't live near any research facilities (we live rural). Those summer programs sound like possibilities though, so I will look into those.

 

Unless things change as he takes Chem this year, I suspect he'll prefer the Bio aspect of this. He's been enthralled with life under the microscope since he started using it at the beginning of this past school year... and has wanted to be a Dr. since about 3rd grade - though that has since morphed into research more than hands on.

 

Summer programs could be very good for him to get a feel for what is out there... Since he's just starting 10th grade, we have some time to feel out colleges, but I want to make sure he's prepared with the courses he takes now.

[jplain]

Here's one summer option that is open to students 16 and up: NIH Summer Internship Program in Biomedical Research. If you Google "high school summer research programs" you'll find a ton of other options as well.

[creekland]

Here's one summer option that is open to students 16 and up: NIH Summer Internship Program in Biomedical Research. If you Google "high school summer research programs" you'll find a ton of other options as well.

 

That one doesn't appear to be open to homeschoolers... except, maybe, the year before he goes to college since he'll have been accepted to a college by then.

 

"you must be sixteen years of age or older when you begin the program and must either be enrolled at least half-time in high school or an accredited U.S. college or university or plan to be enrolled in the fall."

 

I shall google others... they do sound perfect for getting some experience and ideas prior to college. Thanks!

 

 

[MomsintheGarden]

You might want to consider Geneva College in Beaver Falls, PA. It is a very small Christian school with excellent Chemistry/Biochemistry and Biology departments. Their premed program is very good, with an 80% acceptance rate to medical school (ask this question of colleges - they should be able to give you their acceptance rate). Research opportunities are available, even though they do not have graduate programs. The Chemistry and Biochemistry are both American Chemical Society (ACS) approved, which is unusual for a Christian school.

 

I also encourage you to have your son seriously prepare for the PSAT this summer, and sign him up to take the test in October. It sounds as if he tests well, and if he scores high enough on the PSAT he could receive a lot of merit aid from schools. Geneva College awards a full tuition scholarship for 4 years to all National Merit Finalists. Many other schools offer significant aid to NM fimalists as well.

 

We went to Geneva this past March, and I wrote a detailed post about it on the College Board.

 

 

HTH,

GardenMom

[fivetails]

That one doesn't appear to be open to homeschoolers... except, maybe, the year before he goes to college since he'll have been accepted to a college by then.

 

"you must be sixteen years of age or older when you begin the program and must either be enrolled at least half-time in high school or an accredited U.S. college or university or plan to be enrolled in the fall."

 

I shall google others... they do sound perfect for getting some experience and ideas prior to college. Thanks!

 

 

 

 

Don't write it off so quickly. ;)

 

Your son *is* "enrolled at least half time in high school" -- he's actually enrolled fulltime, in your (very) private high school. Check into it if he'd be interested.

[jplain]

I agree, don't give up so easy! It is unlikely that they were specifically trying to exclude hs'ers. That language was probably included for other reasons. What they really want are motivated young adults. It warrants at least a phone call. If the application process isn't too onerous, I'd encourage him to send in an application even if they say they aren't open to homeschoolers. Who knows, the strength of his application could be all that is needed to change the policy!

 

I was mulling over another thing you mentioned in your original post: the issue of secular vs. non-secular colleges/universities. Because of your son's interests, I'd screen non-secular schools carefully. The school won't be doing him any favors if it can't provide a balanced approach to topics like evolution and stem cell research. I went to a Catholic (Jesuit) university and did not run up against any religious dilemmas in science instruction, so I wouldn't write off non-secular schools...but do take it into consideration.

[creekland]

Good points... I think I will have him look at the opportunities and send in an application for next summer - assuming he keeps his interest once studying Chem. I suspect he will, but... one never knows I guess. I'll discuss the possibility of them not wanting homeschoolers so he doesn't get too disappointed if he's overlooked. I also assume it's highly competitive and will talk about that with him. Then too, he turns 16 right before the summer assignment (May), so one additional year might be needed. We'll see. One additional year would give him his driver's license first.

 

As for colleges, I like the idea of checking out the application and acceptance rate into graduate programs of various types. It also seems to me that this would weed out any place that is unacceptable for whatever reason.

 

It surprised me to see that Geneva's entrance numbers (test scores, etc) were a bit lower than other schools we are looking at... yet has an 80% acceptance rate to med school. I've been trying to figure out how that happens. Is 80% low? Or do such a significant portion of the students in the top 25% that are above the numbers all head for med school (ie is that their main specialty and other majors are pulling the scores down)? Should I even consider entrance numbers or just go by programs and acceptance rates?

 

For instance, Geneva's mid 50% for reading is 470 - 600 and math is 470 - 610. Davidson's are 630 -730 and 640 - 710 respectively (College Handbook from collegeboard). Instinctively I would consider Davidson the better school to aim for, but I haven't checked with them to see their acceptance rate nor to see if they have any sort of certifications. I only heard of them based on my son's report and studies cited in it from there. My son has the scores (based on a Barren's practice test I had him do last week) to be competitive at Davidson, so it shouldn't be an issue. Perhaps I need to get over my instinct and start looking for other factors and not just test scores?

 

Also, with regards to the PSAT, when I looked on the web site, it looked like that was a fall of Jr year test to compete for scholarships (or am I reading something incorrectly)? If so, we have sophomore year to get through first, then sign up for it...

 

Forgive the rambling... it's morning... and I feel like I have a gazillion thoughts. I'm glad we have a couple of years to sort it all out!

[jplain]

I'll PM you with more details of my experiences. :)

[MomsintheGarden]

Good points... I think I will have him look at the opportunities and send in an application for next summer - assuming he keeps his interest once studying Chem. I suspect he will, but... one never knows I guess. I'll discuss the possibility of them not wanting homeschoolers so he doesn't get too disappointed if he's overlooked. I also assume it's highly competitive and will talk about that with him. Then too, he turns 16 right before the summer assignment (May), so one additional year might be needed. We'll see. One additional year would give him his driver's license first.

 

As for colleges, I like the idea of checking out the application and acceptance rate into graduate programs of various types. It also seems to me that this would weed out any place that is unacceptable for whatever reason.

 

It surprised me to see that Geneva's entrance numbers (test scores, etc) were a bit lower than other schools we are looking at... yet has an 80% acceptance rate to med school. I've been trying to figure out how that happens. Is 80% low? Or do such a significant portion of the students in the top 25% that are above the numbers all head for med school (ie is that their main specialty and other majors are pulling the scores down)? Should I even consider entrance numbers or just go by programs and acceptance rates?

 

For instance, Geneva's mid 50% for reading is 470 - 600 and math is 470 - 610. Davidson's are 630 -730 and 640 - 710 respectively (College Handbook from collegeboard). Instinctively I would consider Davidson the better school to aim for, but I haven't checked with them to see their acceptance rate nor to see if they have any sort of certifications. I only heard of them based on my son's report and studies cited in it from there. My son has the scores (based on a Barren's practice test I had him do last week) to be competitive at Davidson, so it shouldn't be an issue. Perhaps I need to get over my instinct and start looking for other factors and not just test scores?

 

Also, with regards to the PSAT, when I looked on the web site, it looked like that was a fall of Jr year test to compete for scholarships (or am I reading something incorrectly)? If so, we have sophomore year to get through first, then sign up for it...

 

Forgive the rambling... it's morning... and I feel like I have a gazillion thoughts. I'm glad we have a couple of years to sort it all out!

 

 

It IS hard to compare, isn't it? I believe Geneva has what I think is a good med school acceptance rate because of the one-on-one attention students receive. If a student is a strong candidate for med school, the professors do a lot of advising and coaching. Here is one example:

http://www.geneva.edu/object/profiles_ibukun_akinboyo

 

Yes, you are right that Geneva's admission stats are lower than colleges such as Davidson and Wheaton. I wish they were higher, too. But Geneva seems to be the right fit for most of our criteria for our daugher. Here are some of them. Perhaps reading things that are important to us will help you figure out what's important to you.

 

1. Christian School, with a strong Christian commitment from the professors. We are Christians, and feel a strongly Christian school can best help her deal with the difficult ethical issues involved in biochemistry and medicine.

2. Affordability. Our daughter got a high enough score on her PSAT to ensure that she will be at least a NM Semifinalist, so she will be given a full tuition scholarship to Geneva. Other schools we looked at offer a very small scholarship to NM finalists, so they would potentially much more costly for us. This is especially important because she's considering grad or medical school.

3. An ACS-approved Chemistry degree, with a biochemistry degree in the Chemistry department, preferably ACS-approved. If she doesn't want to go to medical school, the ACS approval will make it easier to get accepted to grad school.

4. A tutoring-type, mentoring atmosphere with small classes. We want to avoid the "competitive pre-med syndrome" we've heard of that exists at some schools such as Duke. A friend of ours went to Duke said that a lot of folks who would have been great doctors couldn't get accepted to med school because of the grades they earned there. Pre-med class tests were graded on a very strict curve, so if you got a 93 on a test, it was possible to get a C. We believe a student should receive an A for A work. The Geneva professors we spoke to assured us that their work was not graded on a punitive curve like that.

5. Small-medium school (under 7000 students).

6. Within a day's drive (< 6-8 hours) from our home.

7. No fraternities and sororities, or even "Christian social clubs with Greek letters." We have a personal aversion to them, and it's amazing how many Christian schools have them, even places like Bob Jones and Pensacola. We feel a small school atmosphere magnifies the negatives of these organizations. We simply won't send her to a school that has them.

 

I hope this helps you understand our personal perspective.

 

Blessings,

GardenMom

[JeanM]

That was my field, pre-kids.

 

I went to a mid-size liberal arts university with a good regional reputation, but on the national stage it is unknown. I wasn't able to do research on campus as an undergrad, which was unfortunate. However, I did volunteer in a lab at a larger university the summer after my freshman year, I participated in summer research programs at other universities after my soph and junior years, and after my senior year I interned at a local biotech company.

 

Though I had excellent grades and GRE scores, I was still shocked that I was accepted to all of the PhD programs I applied to. I aimed high, and I figured I had no chance against undergrads from Harvard, MIT, etc. Having applied for and been granted a predoctoral fellowship probably helped, but lots of my classmates who didn't have fellowships were of similar backgrounds: very strong students who came from relatively unknown schools with not much research going on.

 

 

 

Hmm. I could have written this post, except I didn't go to a "mid-size liberal arts university", I went to the University of Pennsylvania undergrad. I'm a bit out-of-the-loop right now, because I haven't been in a lab since my second ds was born eight years ago.

 

I was a student member of the admissions committee for my graduate program, so I do have some experience with grad admissions. I think that where you go to grad school is definitely more important than where you go to undergrad. Getting lab experience as an undergrad would be very valuable, especially if you can get a grad school recommendation from it. I didn't have any lab experience as an undergrad, but I did work in molecular biology labs for a few years after graduating and before applying to grad school.

 

If he is interested in MD/PhD programs, they are pretty competitive and take a long time. If he is thinking about that route, he really needs top grades, scores, and recommendations.

 

Hope this helps :001_smile:

[creekland]

It IS hard to compare, isn't it?

 

Um, that might qualify for the understatement of the year! :)

 

We will keep Geneva on our radar to check out. It sounds like a nice school. Personally, Pensacola dropped off pretty quickly for us. Its not accredited... and while we are Christian, we're not KJV people, nor strict on dress code, etc. I'm not that familiar with BJU.

 

This son has the natural intelligence, a great work ethic, high grades and promising practice test scores, but is not naturally competitive and wouldn't do well in that type of environment.

 

It's so nice to have one of my three with a natural work ethic... but I digress. He tells me he doesn't want a party school, so I doubt he'd even be tempted by fraternities. Whether or not a school offers them doesn't rate one way or the other with us. He has said he wants a small school (been visiting places with older son).

 

So... we'll keep looking... and pondering... and... who knows?

 

I really appreciate your thoughts from your research!

[creekland]

I think that where you go to grad school is definitely more important than where you go to undergrad.

 

I'm glad to hear this is true. It does seem to take a lot of pressure off...

 

 

If he is interested in MD/PhD programs, they are pretty competitive and take a long time. If he is thinking about that route, he really needs top grades, scores, and recommendations.

 

Hope this helps :001_smile:

 

It does help, and he definitely has the ability if he keeps the interest. He's been near or at the top of the nation in stats since about 3rd grade - and it's pretty much all self-motivated. Interestingly enough, he was slow to develop speech and reading... slow enough to be in therapy from the time he was 4 (though tested to age 7 with his other skills) to somewhere in 2nd grade. Then it all clicked and he rocketed to the top. Hubby and I have often wondered if that time where he really had to work to figure it all out at a young age contributed to the way he naturally is now - or if many youngsters are from the same mold.

 

I know I wish my other two would catch some of what he has. They both have talent - really good talent - but one needs to push them to use it generally.