Latin Pedagogy and Second Language Acquisition Theory

[Guest latinitatisfautor]

I found this contribution by â€forty-two†a quite useful thumb nail sketch of Krashen’s theory of comprehensible input. I would also like to point out that there have been others since Krashen who have developed modified theoretical versions of the second language acquisition process. I too would like to give a thumb nail sketch of one of these language acquisition theories - M. Swain’s output hypothesis. Professor Swain contends that while comprehensible input is necessary, it is not per se a complete and sufficient basis for language acquisition and use. She maintains that students of a second language need situations in which to produce "output". In other words students must attempt to speak a language before they can truly be considered to have stepped up to the level of linguistic competency and proficiency. Swain developed her theory after studying immersion programs in foreign language acquisition which came up short in the area of achieving ability to communicate in language. Swain found that students must also be guided to produce in the target language and that the very effort to produce will reveal a gap between what they want to say and what they can say and so provides the student with occasions to apply new linguistic rules and to work with these rules to achieve what they desire to communicate. There is a “pushed outputâ€, i.e. student in “producing output†moves from what they want to express (essential vocabulary) to how to express it (essential grammar, syntax, and idioms ). Her theory can be found in Swain M. (1985) "Communicative Competence: Some roles of Comprehensible output in its Development†in Glass & Madden (Eds), Input in Second Language Acquisition (235-253) and in (1995 ) †Three Functions of Output in Second Language Learning in Cook and Seidlhoffer Eds., Principles and Practices in applied Linguistics: Studies in Honor of H.G. Widdouson (125-144) Oxford Univ. Press.

 

As a student teacher candidate in the field of Latin secondary education, I am interested to find out if there any Latin teachers using Krashen’s or Swains theories in their class rooms and how they are implementing them and adapting same to the teaching of classical Latin or Greek. Are there any new text books using these methods for teaching Latin? Are there any teachers using Latin to teach Latin under the direct method either according to these theories or similar theories? I would quite curious to find out results.

[forty-two]

As a student teacher candidate in the field of Latin secondary education, I am interested to find out if there any Latin teachers using Krashen’s or Swains theories in their class rooms and how they are implementing them and adapting same to the teaching of classical Latin or Greek. Are there any new text books using these methods for teaching Latin? Are there any teachers using Latin to teach Latin under the direct method either according to these theories or similar theories? I would quite curious to find out results.

The latin-bestpractices yahoo group is a great resource for this.

[christine in al]

started a new thread, as my post wasn't really about the theory,

Edited December 23, 2009 by christine in al
didn't want to high jack erudite thread... no really.

[Momling]

Krashen was a big thing for a while and he certainly made some good points about learning a second language... but his ideas apply to fluency in communication. Do any classical Latin learners expect communicative fluency?

 

In a way, he (and others) sort of paralleled the whole-language vs. phonics debate that happened in reading instruction at the same time (or the more recent 'math wars').

 

I'm not completely into 'Krashen bashin' though... for young children learning a second language (as in ESL programs in US elementary schools), Krashen's theories and their pedagogical application certainly make sense. For Latin? They're not appropriate... For adults or older people with metalinguistic knowledge that can be applied to learning? No. His views on spelling? Not for me.

[latinteach]

Do any classical Latin learners expect communicative fluency?

 

 

A growing number do. Many Latin teachers attend "conventicula" in the summer to develop their communicative skills.

 

See:

 

http://www.latin.org/

http://classics.buffalo.edu/events/buffaloniense/

http://www.conventiculum.org/

http://www.uky.edu/AS/Classics/aestivumeng.html

http://www.latin.org/rusticatio.html

 

For high school students:

 

http://www.christendom.edu/latin/index.shtml

[metrodorus]

Latinum has a few thousand students using its audio courses. These are based on Comenius' methodology, which really is similar to Krashen - comprehensible input, plus grammar. Latinum also thinks it is important to produce the language - in writing, and in speech.

So, we have Latinum, a multi-level immersion course, with many hundreds of hours of Latin immersion available, and explicit tuition as well, (i.e. grammar)

 

Once the student is up to a certain level, all the material is in Latin only. Students are encourged to use a Latin-Latin dictionary, read Latin language grammar books, etc, once they have passed the first three years of study, and Latinum expects its users to acquire the ability to converse in Latin.

 

Latinum thus also offers opportunities for students to communicate - the audio-visual locutorium on Latinum's Latin language social network site, is busy every evening, and a parade of users pass through every day, who speak to and write to each other in Latin. There are also daily text study groups in the locutorium, where Latin texts are read aloud, and discussed in Latin.

 

Starting from scratch 2 years ago, Schola now has over 1300 members.

[Nan in Mass]

Metrodorus - Thank you for posting so many resources. We haven't had a chance to take advantage of them yet (because we are spending lots of energy doing English and History in French GRIN) but this approach suits us and I am greatly looking forward to exploring and using some of these resources. Meanwhile, in order not to lose the bit of Latin we have already aquired, we are reading slowly Fabulae Mirabiles. Perhaps you would like to make new posts on the curriculum, high school, bilingual, and accelerated boards linking your four posts here. Or I can do it for you, if you like. There are many more people on the boards who might like these resources than this thread will reach; this thread's title is rather erudite.

-Nan

-Nan

[metrodorus]

Hi Nan,

Thanks for the thumbs up.

I was reticent about posting all over the place, as I didn't want to multi-post. Please feel free to post the links to the Latin audio resources elsewhere on the forum - you probably know more about what parents are looking for on the various fora than I do.

[Cindyg]

Metrodorus, are you the Latinum guy? Evan? If so, I want to thank you for making this available. I've been using your material with my son for about a year, starting when he was in the 5th grade. We listen to about a ten-minute segment every day for a week.

 

Most of the Latin programs I've tried have very little audio, so I started using Latinum to get the sound of the language in our ears; and I think it's been an enormous success. I'm much more confident about plowing through our Latin curriculum on our own with your voice echoing in my head. :)

 

And, yes, I did participate in the honesty box. :)

 

I really appreciate your site.

 

We're just about to finish Latin Prep 1, and we're also finishing Minimus and Secundus for the second time. I've just purchased Cambridge, which looks simple after Latin Prep; and we'll probably do one more something else as well.

 

Back to the original topic: My goal in teaching Latin is so that my son will be an educated person.

[metrodorus]

Hi,

Yes, I'm the Latinum guy.

I have not really made Latinum with a kid focus - although the newer introductory material - the Vestibulum, and Comenius, is quite child friendly, I think. The Corderius dialogues were also written for school children.

 

With Latinum, you can do as much or little as you want - and there is such a wide variety of material.

 

Also, the Adler material - only the part B and C - I think the grammar expositions are too hard - would be useful. Also, the verb videos I made which are on you tube are definitely child friendly.

 

Evan.

[Cindyg]

Hi,

Yes, I'm the Latinum guy.

I have not really made Latinum with a kid focus... - Evan.

 

Yeah. I edit the audio files to make them work for my kid, and it works great. I actually like my edited files better than the animated video clips.

 

Anyway, I appreciate your sharing. It's been a great help to me.

[Saille]

Why does it have to be either/or? I love teaching g/t with Henle' date=' but I would never dream of [i']leaving[/i] it at that.

 

LOL...I loathe Henle, but I agree with you.

 

I think this is why my kids like to add a dash of Minimus to their helping of Lively Latin. I also think it's why we'll keep Rosetta Stone in our general rotation, as well. This way, we read passages, we hear spoken Latin to aid with our pronunciation, and we still use a g/t program with integrated history and derivative study.

 

Oh, and thank you to the person who referenced reading Harry Potter in French. Just found the Latin translation on Amazon!

[Saille]

Must add that I now (having been through the rest of this thread) find my delight over Harrius Potter, in context, hilarious.

[metrodorus]

Hello Cindy - I'd really be interested to know what works with the young kids you are teaching when making one-directional material - audio can be made semi-interactive, but it is hard to do.....and you have no way of knowing when you've 'lost' your listener..

 

I'm curious - what would work for your kid? What time length would a good episode length? Would it include music? Singing Latin songs?

Would movies be useful, or audio only?

[Poke Salad Annie]

:lurk5:

[Cindyg]

Hello Cindy - I'd really be interested to know what works with the young kids you are teaching when making one-directional material - audio can be made semi-interactive, but it is hard to do.....and you have no way of knowing when you've 'lost' your listener..

 

I'm curious - what would work for your kid? What time length would a good episode length? Would it include music? Singing Latin songs?

Would movies be useful, or audio only?

 

Oh, hi Evan. I just saw this reply to my reply. :) I'll tell you what I've done with your files that has made them palatable for my child:

 

First of all, I deleted all the silence out. I know you left those in on purpose to give the listener time to repeat the word, but it's long enough for a child to tune out.

 

Secondly, I altered your sequence from Latin-English-Latin to Latin-English-Latin-English. That's the sequence that seems to work for us.

 

Third, I cut the files down to about 7-10 minutes. The only way I have to do this is to simply chop the files up. So, if your file is 26 minutes, we end up with three different files.

 

Now, for my wish list: My son cannot resist cartoons or even line drawings. Nor can he resist a story. If you were going with a strictly audio program, I would like to hear all the vocabulary (new or review) in the Latin-English-Latin-English format, one word at a time. Then, I would like to have those words woven into some kind of simple story. And I would like to hear the story phrase by phrase in the Latin-English-Latin-English format.

 

Then, if you had a way to incorporate a visual format, I'd like simple comic-style illustrations of the story (silly if possible), and I'd like to see the Latin words in print on the same page as the pictures. Even if the child is too young to read the Latin words, the mom needs to start to learn them.

 

I looked at the new cartoons on the Latinum website. These would interest my son momentarily, especially the one of Jesus speaking Latin in your voice! LOL!

 

But, no, I would not use these in our Latin study. Though my son loves to look at cartoons, those cartoons do nothing to put the language in any context. Nor is any translation provided. Nor do we see the words in print. So, there's nothing in those cartoons that would help us learn Latin. More of a curiousity.

 

Oh, and you asked about songs. I don't know. I've not had tremendous success with songs in our school (in any subject). We love music, but when memorization facts are forced into ditties, meh, that just always seems cheesey to us. It must be hard to think of meaningful ditties. If you were going to try to put Latin into songs for kids, I would stick with the Latin-English-Latin-English format.

 

In our Spanish curriculum, the teacher uses a song that uses a Spanish-English format (no repetition); and it makes an enormous difference. (It's useless.) Without the repetition, there's just no time for the text to soak in to the brain. That's my experience. (And my son points this out every time we encounter the useless Spanish-English song.)

 

Anyway, that's how we're using your audio files, and that's my wishlist. :)

 

I appreciate your sharing Latinum with us.

[metrodorus]

Hi

I have moved on a step, and I suspect this method will work even better:

I have decided to do something no-one has done before, and make an audio visual Latin course, in Latin only.

 

Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/evan1965

 

I would be very interested in what you think of it - if you leave comments on the youtube pages, I will get them in my inbox. Over 80 episodes are available, each one is around 3 minutes long.

 

 

The course is sequential. It follows Adler, so if you have been using the podcast, this will be a 'step up'.

 

Evan.