the value of a diploma

[SeekingSimplicity]

I was listening to some teachers talking over the weekend about problems with the school system. One thing that came up is what a diploma is actually worth. The argument was that our society says you need a high school diploma to do anything, so they push kids thru school and everyone gets a diploma. It no longer means what it once did, and also that it has lowered the standard of education. And now because so many people are getting diplomas, much more people are going to college, so college degrees are no longer as valuable as they once were (in other words while a degree may be necessary, a PhD isn't what it used to be).

 

I'm not trying to start any sort of arguement or debate here, but I am curious as to what you all think about this. Do you agree or disagree?

[PineFarmMom]

I agree with them. I think the standards have been lowered & it doesn't mean what it used to. I think a lot of the ideas that were meant to "even the playing field" have backfired and created a sort of mediocrity across the board. I don't particularly have an answer for that at the moment, but that is my take on it. I do think a diploma doesn't mean what it used to. I almost think a college associates degree is what a high school degree used to be. We have friends who didn't push their children much towards goals or to do well in school, etc. They left high school unable to achieve the same level of math that 8th grade dd is working on now!??? I think the TAKS test was giving them problems, but they did get the diploma.

[KJB]

What did it used to mean that it no longer means now?

 

You still, at a minimum, need a diploma (or high school education) to apply for most entry level positions. You still need a bachelors degree to apply for many many more desirable careers. Graduate degrees and beyond are still required in many fields.

 

If the teachers are saying that children now are less educated than children of the past, I'm not sure if that's true. Education has changed, to be sure. Kids today need different skill sets to be successful than in the past. A diploma now may not mean you have the same type of education of years gone by, but I'm not sure that means a diploma earned by meeting today's standard is less than.

 

I guess I'd want the assertion to be quantified in some concrete way other than just a vague claim that diplomas today are less worthy. How are they less worthy? Is a student less able to meet the needs of the workplace today? Are they scoring lower on the SAT or other standardized college admissions tests? Are they really that much less prepared for college level work? And who exactly are today's diploma holders being compared to?

 

We tend to idealize the past. The facts don't always support the notion that the good old days were all that much better. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. I think these types of claims often are indicative of "I had to walk barefoot uphill both ways" syndrome.

[Brindee]

The schooling is definitely "dumbed down". Many, many teachers complain that they don't have time to REALLY teach, because they have to "teach to the test" to meet school standards. The standards are there so the school can look good. They teach kids to take standardized tests.

 

The fact is, kids used to read for pleasure, now they watch tv or play electronic games, etc. The kidsused to be able to have debates about different authors and poems and works of art, now they don't get around to doing those things because it's not on the test. They used to be able to narrate, to speak long, memorized passages from memory. They knew as much about the world that people in those days knew. The 8th graders did their finals orally, often times, which included knowing many facts about their world, speaking up in front of many. Most high-schoolers, and adults don't know all or much of the things they had to know to graduate!

 

Those skills are often not learned these days. Whether it's specifically needed for a job these days, I think the kids would be MUCH more well-rounded individuals if they learned more of those skills!

 

They didn't have multiple choice, from the things I've seen. It was all writing or speaking the information in sentences and paragraphs. To me, the diploma received then was because they worked hard, learned well, and retained what they learned. There is documented proof, if you do research, of the tests they had then. There are also many descriptions of how they've made tests and things easier over the years.

 

I know, I shouldn't answer this without giving the links to prove what I'm saying. I don't have the time right now to look them all up. I hope someone else can provide some documentation.

[creekland]

Yes, diplomas are worth a bit less now than they used to be. All one needs to do to get a high school diploma is attend class - esp senior year. Teachers would like to fail those that don't do work or accomplish grades, but they get overruled by higher ups. Kids know this, and do little... if anything... yet still get their diploma just like those that truly work for it. It's impossible to tell those that worked for it and have the knowledge to have earned it from those that got theirs given to them. Therefore, they are all worth less.

 

I'm not so sure I'd say the same thing (yet) with college degrees - at least - not those from academically respected places. I guess I'd be concerned about on-line degrees... is there a way to guarantee who did the work for those? I haven't looked into them, so I don't really know. If I were hiring, I'd trust a traditional degree more...

[KristenS]

I do have to agree that it means less ... it used to be that an 8th grade education was plenty and high school was special, then high school became normal and college something special. Now a bachelor's is the norm and if you want to stand out in a field you almost have to go for the master's.

 

I think master's and PhD work probably still is rigorous as it used to be ... but more and more folks are going for it because a bachelor's degree just isn't 'enough' in some careers anymore. And a lot of kids spend plenty of that college time in remedial work because of high school ... which will start to cheapen the bachelor's even more...

 

Sigh.

[SeekingSimplicity]

I think they weren't saying that a PhD is easier to get, it's more that an associates or possibly a bachelors degree is now the high school diploma, which lowers the value of the PhD, ykwim?

 

One of the teachers is a college instructor and he complains about kids coming out of high school that don't have the math, and other, skills they need to earn their degree. Then the other was a middle school teacher who has students that are no where near on grade level. They can't do their work, the parents either are so lacking in education themselves or just don't care so the kids aren't getting help from home. She cannot fail them, because in honesty most of the class would fail then she would get fired for failing them. Which is not fair to anyone, but that's what it's turned into.

 

I know that skills have changed, that what students learn today has to be different than what they learned in the past. But some things never change, some skills will always be necessary. My grandma only went to school thru the 8th grade, because back then that was all that was available to girls. But what she did in 8th grade was harder than anything I ever had to do in school. And I was in honors GT classes.

 

I guess what I mean is they aren't expected to work to their full potential like they once were. Then when they get to college (because they can go to college with a high school diploma they were given just for showing up at school for 12 years), what is that going to do? That's the problem the college instructor was having. The students he teaches can't do their work.

[Kidlit]

I haven't read all the responses, so forgive me if I duplicate. ;)

 

I think the hs diploma is still valued today, but I don't think it means what it used to to the graduate (and possibly to his/her future employers). In other words, I DO think education has been "dumbed down." I've taught college freshmen for about five years now, and believe me, many of them do not have the requisite skills to graduate from high school. However, they obviously did graduate, so something is lacking in the expectations/standards dept.