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I understand that she doesn't have high schoolers now, but she will. Her oldest is a 6th grader, and high school comes WAY too fast! :scared: I wish I had known a little better what to expect between 6th and 9th grades when my oldest was a 6th grader. :crying: If your TOG friends with high schoolers aren't spending any more time on it than they did in the grammar stage, then either your friends are doing something wrong, or mine are! LOL. Seriously, I was just sharing what I hear my friends discussing around the lunch table on Sunday afternoons. They ARE struggling with the time factor, and I brought it up not to attack TOG, but to point out that the time issue -- which the OP mentions as one reason for looking at other options -- may not be any less with a different program. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was attacking TOG... or you. I really wasn't. :001_smile: I hope the OP comes back to weigh in on some of the suggestions and share what she's thinking. :)

Actually, it is scheduled from ECC and up, but it still doesn't matter because many people use something different for writing. There's a lot of room on the grid for that reason... so that you can write in your own book or lesson plans in the 3 R's. No one is bound to MFW's recommendations for the 3 R's. They're just recommendations, with instructions in the manual for how to use them. Part of the reason for these particular recommendations, however, is for the sake of efficiency -- time and cost -- and part of the reason is in keeping with CM methods, especially in language arts. Notice that they shift between publishers and the intensity of work in the skill areas between the grammar stage, the logic stage, and the rhetoric stage. IF one were to come into MFW during the middle school years and wanted to try Writing Strands, they could use this chart as a guide for correct placement: http://www.writing-strands.com/curriculum.asp

Just to give some perspective over the long term, though, since your oldest is only 8.... your advance reading, prep time, and followup discussion time will increase exponentially as they get older. :unsure: I do not use TOG, but I have three very good friends IRL who do, and they all struggle with this. One family's four children are currently ages 8 thru 19 (her load has eased up quite a bit since oldest graduated, so she currently has only three being homeschooled, and it's still tough for her to get to everything). One family's three school-aged children are ages 12 thru 18, and she has the same problem.... time. And the third family has four children ages 4 thru 13 -- she's not even doing much with the youngest yet -- and she's looking at other options for her oldest for high school. The amount of reading, studying, and followup discussion required for these moms with older kids and teens takes up FAR more time than I've ever needed to do for MFW, whether in the elementary years when I was schooling them all together, or at the high school level when my olders are working almost entirely independently. I actually don't think TOG and MFW are that far apart in terms of either mom's prep time or actual teaching time during the grammar stage. At the high school level, though, the MFW manuals are written directly to the student, with once-a-week meetings scheduled with the parent. Also, the hands-on activities go away, as MFW high school is primarily reading and writing, and the student is doing more hands-on work in other areas such as science labs, electives, chores, etc. I do think that the Logic stage can be hard to teach in MFW because Mom has to adapt the curriculum more for that age, and there can be BIG differences from one 13yo to the next ... but the tools are there for her to do so, as far as the academic side of it is concerned. So much *emotional* stuff is also going on at this age (11 or 12 to 14 or so) that that adds another element of training, guiding, mentoring, counseling, discipling, disciplining, or whatever you want to call it. Or all of the above, LOL. So that can play into the "school time" struggles, as well. That's not *usually* a curriculum problem, though. And for some kids, it might also mean keeping history "light" in 7th and 8th grade so that Mom and her adolescent can concentrate more on other problem areas before high school... some of which may be academic (math or writing skills, for example), and some of which are emotional and spiritual. For these reasons, Mom might not want or need to adapt or "beef up" the curriculum at ALL. Sometimes the most efficient (and successful) thing to do is to just start at the top of the grid and work your way down each day. Don't over-think it. Don't stress about whether it's "enough". Let time and maturity -- and prayer -- do their work. ;)

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>>You know exactly what I mean by "grading option." Why do you equivocate? I meant by grading: an option to send in stuff to be graded by someone other than me. Obviously anybody can grade his or her own homeschool stuff. Actually, no, I didn't know what you meant. That's why I was confused and asked. :confused1: If I realized you were referring to a "school" who does the grading for you, I would've just said right off the bat that you should stick with Calvert or Abeka or CLP. >>One of the things that scares me away, is the fact that people keep saying you can beef it up if you want to ...I don't want to stress over beefing things up. I'd rather have something to work towards. Then you don't want a multi-level learning program at all. You want grade-level specific. One of the things we moms who use multi-level learning programs love about them is the ability to either beef up or do "just the basics" as needed and desired... the flexibility to tailor one complete program to each of our individual children. We do have goals to work toward, though. I'm not sure why the fact that it's a unit study would automatically mean there aren't goals to work toward. We do have our kids learn grammar, writing, spelling, vocab, math, science, various types of essays, research projects, foreign language, a broad understanding of history from a biblical worldview, a solid foundation of biblical knowledge, wisdom, and the ability to defend their faith, and much more. I just don't think you're a CM gal at heart, CT, or a unit study gal. You've always loved textbooks. I think you should probably just stay the course. ;)

Archived threads for EX1850 and 1850MOD, including using them with older kids, as well as individual subjects included in the program: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewforum.php?f=18&sid=f63f81e1bb3120ab76f1cd4f696f1c60

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"Absolutely, would welcome ideas on how to make it work if possible, but also open to checking out other programs, too...feel free to offer your wisdom and experience!" Okay, I'll bite. ;) "--I want to do with all three boys together somehow, but the age range makes this difficult. I thought I could include my youngest into some of the science reading/activities and perhaps some of the history, but it hasn't worked out. His attention span isn't there." Would the 1st grader's attention span be there if you were using TOG, which is even more time-intensive and "classical" than MFW? Are you using the younger child supplement package? Are you doing any of the hands-on activities? Age-appropriate books or videos from Book Basket? Coloring pages or notebooking pages for him to color while you read aloud? Nature walks? As a 1st grader, it's pretty normal for him to have a low attention span, especially being a boy. Pick what will interest him and let the rest go. Are you doing MFW 1st grade with him, by chance? Is he reading yet on his own? "--History read-aloud time has become challenging because 1) my eldest is a visual learner so he would rather just read everything on his own; 2) my second son is a kinesthetic learner and sitting and listening isn't his style, either. " A few things you can do here.... IF you want to: -- Oldest can have his own copy of the books to follow along with his own eyes while you read. -- Oldest can sit next to you in order to see the pages while you read. -- Oldest can do the reading aloud. (At our house, everyone who CAN read, does. My girls would take turns when they were all elementary and we were schooling together. Note the age differences in my signature line.) -- Second son can work on his notebooking page or a coloring page, play with play-dough, stack blocks, drive Hotwheel cars across the floor, or whatever might keep his hands busy while you read. And again, he can take turns reading aloud, too, while sitting right next to you. This will be good reading practice for him. Some kids actually do listen and process better if they can keep their hands busy while listening. Then, after the main reading assigned for the day is finished, let each of the kids take a book at his own level (from Book Basket, assuming you're using this option), choosing a book that's on-topic with the topic being covered that day, and go read it on their own. Then they can narrate back to you what they read. Are you having them do oral narrations after the readings? "--I end up foregoing the assigned 2nd/3rd grade supplement for this year because there just isn't time, so my 3rd grader rarely gets to experience age-appropriate activities in history and science." If you have a 3rd and 1st grader, then you should be using the 2nd/3rd grade supplement..... OR at least getting books (and videos) from Book Basket which are age-appropriate for them. This part really isn't any different than what you'll find in TOG, which has age-appropriate books and activities assigned for each of those grade levels, as well. If you aren't doing this, then that would be why you've having difficulties keeping the younger kids engaged. You would have to do this in TOG or another program, as well. Even if you were using something like HOD or textbooks or SL (specific level programs for each child), you'd have to make TIME to insure that each child is doing all of their own readings and assignments at their own level. I don't think switching programs is going to help the time issue if you aren't already using the materials designated for each level, kwim? In fact, a different program may even make it worse. "--We get behind on read-alouds as a result of it not being a favorite activity of my kids. As much as I wish I could sit and read aloud to them for hours, it is just not holding their attention and it's making history a chore for them and for me." For hours? There's usually only one read-aloud assigned each week, in addition to the core subject books to be read in history, science, and Bible. I'm confused about this one. "So....help??? I have appreciated MFW overall through the years, but I'm feeling like it's not working as much for me as it did in past years. If you have made a switch from MFW to something else, say TOG which intrigues me a bit or anything else, I would love to hear your thoughts about what prompted you to make the switch and how it has worked out for you." I would look carefully at the TIME that other programs are taking families with multiple children. You mentioned a time issue more than once in your OP, so this may be an even worse problem in another program. Especially TOG! The moms I know IRL who are using TOG really ARE spending *hours* a day getting it done... and it only gets worse as the children get older, especially in the Logic stage and beyond. :001_unsure: Do you have a schedule in place, or some sort of routine? Is everyone getting the sleep they need at night? Are they allowed to play or watch television before starting school for the day? I know that this will cause a serious distraction and uncooperative attitude in my youngest dd, because once she starts watching TV or playing, that's all she wants to do and hates being pulled away from it to do school. How about MOM? Are you getting things started early in the day and being efficient so that you can get things done? There have been seasons at our house where *I* was the one who got involved in other stuff before starting school, so *I* am the problem in not getting things done. :blushing: Do you have a lot of outside activities that are putting a time pressure on you? Could it be something that you're feeling as a result of other issues, and not the curriculum itself? I would suggest going back to re-read Marie's teaching notes and scheduling tips at the front of the manual and go from there if you really want to make it work. Or give them a call at the office. But I see several things in your post that you're not doing which are either scheduled or recommended for the ages you've got.... ;) Maybe try that first, before doing a complete switch?

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No, definitely NOT true at the lower levels. I'm not sure about the older levels.

I was in Rainbow growing up. I enjoyed it, but I also grew up in a small town and we all knew each other from school, so I didn't meet anybody new through it. We did much as some others have explained..... meetings twice a month with an occasional "special" meeting for whatever reason, and regular community service opportunities. It was fine. I have no complaints about my experience, but I wouldn't enroll my girls in Rainbow today because I know more now about the background of the Masons and don't want to get involved. We can do community service on our own or through our church. I'm not sure if Rainbow girls had to *ever* be daughters of Masons.... at least not in our small town or lodge. My sister, who was 20 years my senior, also grew up in Rainbow during the 50's (she was born in '43), and our parents were not Masons. Although come to think of it, we might've had a grandfather who was a Mason.... I'll have to ask my mom about that. Her side of the family was Catholic, though, and I don't believe Catholics were allowed in Rainbow. So if we had any Masons in the family, they would've been on my dad's side. As for formal dress, we only had to wear formal gowns at installation and other special ceremonies. We were allowed to wear everyday dresses at regular monthly meetings. The gown I wore when I was installed as Worthy Advisor was the white hoop formal that my sister had worn 20 years earlier, except my mom did add straps so that it wouldn't be completely sleeveless. I'm not sure if this was her personal choice to add the sleeves, or if it was required in order to be considered modest. Back in the 50's, hoop skirts and sleeveless tops were the style for formals, so sleeveless might not have been an issue then.

One problem that one of my girls has always had is rushing through things *because* she knows the stuff and just wants to get it done. Doesn't matter what subject it is... she just gets over-confident. So then in the process of rushing, she skips steps and/or doesn't SHOW all of her work because she has it in her head, so I can't determine where she made her mistake.

What about The One Year Adventure Novel? I don't think it's necessarily *like* PLL/ILL, but from what you've described, it might be a good fit for the creative writer in your daughter.

I disagree with the pp (particularly for the older grades), so you might want to ask this question on the Logic board as well, CT. Let's put it this way.... there's a reason so many BJU users opt for the DVD or online option. ;)

And with this (your last paragraph), you made Ruth Beechick's argument, which is that we already study grammar *informally* in context of good reading, speaking, and writing, whether in real life or in "school". There's never been any argument about that. ;) Now I would agree that those who read and hear more twaddle and slang than eloquence may have a problem. THEY may need to study proper grammar (formally) for a longer period of time in order to be able to communicate well after bad habits have already been established. The pattern for poor grammar or good begins a very young age.... birth even. Let's face it, what kind of communication skills is a toddler going to learn from SpongeBob? :huh:

My oldest insists that the one year of Latin she did helped her understand English grammar AND phonics AND spelling far better than any other language arts curriculum we've used. ;)

WHOA. Hold on.... Ruth Beechick NEVER said that! What she SAID was that the names of the parts of the speech could be taught formally at a later time. Reason? Because while they may be USING grammar in context of reading and writing and oral communication and copywork and... and... for all those early grammar years, the concept of attaching names to the parts of speech is what is unnecessary because they CAN learn them at a later time. (Yes, that is a run-on sentence and very poor grammar. :lol: ) Ruth Beechick ABSOLUTELY believes in working *very* closely with the child in the language arts from the day they're born! She just doesn't advocate the need to teach grammar formally prior to about 4th or 5th grade. (NOT 9th grade, as someone above mentioned.) In fact, in her book You CAN Teach Your Child Successfully: Grades 4-8, she explains how in great detail. http://www.christianbook.com/can-teach-your-child-successfully-paperback/ruth-beechick/9780940319042/pd/19047 In The Language Wars, Beechick explains how the very competitive publishing industry is one of the biggest reasons that teaching 'formal' grammar, along with many other 'formal' school subjects, in 1st grade became popular. ;) Just wanted to clear that up. Carry on. :001_smile:

Good to hear, Joanne. Everything will be alright. :001_smile: :grouphug:

Praying, Joanne. :grouphug:

But then there's this..... http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/18/reports-raise-concern-about-backgrounds-obamacare-navigators/?intcmp=trending

Please see above for clarification. We know that Muslims (as a religious group) are not exempt. :)

Yes, I understand that, but Dhimmitude is not what I was referring to. I was thinking they have some sort of *optional* medical sharing group (to join) similar to what we Christians have in Samaritan and MediShare. Likewise, and to clarify since the article linked doesn't.... neither are we Christians (as a religious group) exempt. Only those who choose to belong to, and qualify for, membership in an established Christian medical sharing group like Samaritan and MediShare are exempt. But it's not the Christians themselves who are exempt; it's members of these particular groups which have been in existence for many years already, and are set up specifically to replace or supplement insurance, with specific rules to follow in order to meet qualification, who are exempt. Thank you for the clarification on Dhimmitude for those who didn't know, Leav97. :)

Heather, I didn't read all 12 pages of this thread, so wasn't sure whether this question got answered. We belong to Christian Care MediShare. We had been considering one of the Christian sharing groups for some time, but previously had insurance through dh's job, so didn't need to make a decision until this year when he obtained a job without insurance. We stood on the fence between MediShare and Samaritan for a while, and finally decided on MediShare. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, but I wanted to let you know that there is another option. (And I find it interesting that in the wave of all the problems with Obamacare and the website, with some still insisting that it's a good thing IF they can ever get into the system, and others still insisting that we need to do whatever it takes to make it go away, that NO ONE in MSM is discussing *other* options that are available to many people. Even some conservative groups are not mentioning it unless pressed, like Jay Sekulow on ACLJ the other day when someone called in to mention MediShare, and he cut her off saying "We don't do advertising here," but then went on to explain that in fact, many DO have other options. The Amish are exempt, as are Muslims, I believe, or at least some Muslims because I understand that they have some sort of a religious exemption option like we do. There may be others, as well. Of course there's always the option of bowing out and just paying the penalty, but honestly? I think that's what they ultimately want, so I'm not going there. I have issues with the IRS being in charge of this program. :glare: Besides, I've read that what you THINK your penalty will be in the coming year(s) may not actually BE... particularly if your income level varies. But no one is talking about that. "Simply" paying a $95 or whatever it is penalty for 2014 sounds like a good solution, but those paying $95 up front may get hit later on if their circumstances change at all. Sort of like back taxes.)