I've not done Moving Beyond the Page. I've been doing mostly MFW since 2004, worked in the convention booth for our area for two years, attended Vision Weekend in 2009, and listened to numerous of their workshops on CD... so I know MFW pretty well and obviously prefer it. :) MFW K and 1st are targeted to children in the learn-to-read stage and therefore include phonics and very beginning LA skills, so yes, those two years are very different than all the rest. When your oldest child hits 2nd grade, MFW recommends combining all of them in the content subjects from that point on. Since every child always does math and LA at their own level anyway, no one is left out on the skill-building side of it. Marie has suggestions in the parent/teacher notes in the TMs for how to go about doing this, and of course there's always the forums where you can ask questions, read through the archives, etc. There's also conference CDs available (some of their titles are getting hard to find, though), one of which is called "How to Teach an Effective Unit Study without Getting Bogged Down", and there's another about "Multilevel Teaching at the Elementary Level". These two are fresh in my mind because I just re-listened to them again this week. Oh, and another one called "Help! My Homeschool is Chaos!" :001_rolleyes: Anyway, you can either use their recommendations for math and language arts, or choose whatever you like. But the weekly lesson plans do include narrations (both written and oral), copywork, memory work, dictation, vocab, notebooking, and sometimes other writing assignments, as well as your "main" English program, whatever that is. MOST students will do most or all of these assignments. Your 3rd and 1st graders will not do ALL of that, but they may do SOME of it, depending on what it is, their maturity level, their listening skills, handwriting skills, etc. So let's say you choose to do Creation to the Greeks. The whole family will participate in the Bible readings, and depending on the reading level and maturity of your oldest, he might do the Bible readings labeled "Advanced", or he might not. Everyone will (or should) participate in some of the Bible assignments like memorizing the 10 Commandments (can be done orally or written), memorizing the OT books of the Bible, playing some of the hands-on games to help with retention such as the frogs invading your house when you study the 10 plagues of Egypt. :lol: Book Basket (in back of the manual) has a LOT of options for all ages, from preschool-adult, and sometimes video recommendations, too. Science is hands-on, so everyone can participate in that, too. Oldest child will do more detailed lab sheets and read more books, maybe even narrate or do some notebooking pages or write some reports that you can assign him (or her) that your younger children won't do. Same with nature study. I would NOT worry about whether Streams of Civilization (scheduled in CTG) is over their heads. First of all, the whole book isn't assigned; just certain passages. But if your 10yo is advanced and wants to know more details or more history about a particular topic, he certainly CAN read more than just the assigned passage from Streams. But generally speaking, it's intended for Mom to either read TO the children, or read ahead and summarize it FOR the children... IOW, Streams is used kind of like an encyclopedia in both CTG and RTR. But then you also have "easy" books like The Trojan Horse, which is a Step 5 easy reader. Plus the wide variety of titles in Book Basket. I would start a thin 3-ring binder for even the preschoolers if they want to feel like they're "doing school", too. They can do coloring pages, color some maps, you can get stickers for them, they can have a copy of some of the notebooking pages which include information such as the books of the Bible... they won't stick around for most of your lessons, of course, but there's certainly enough for them to feel like they're part of the family learning activities, too... IF they want to. Younger kids tend to have short attention spans, as I'm sure you know. ;) I would have a separate, special box for them to have some educational games and toys that are JUST for "school time", for those moments when they're bored with what the older kids are doing. You could also consider one of the MFW preschool packages, which also come with instructions and ideas for how to use those "toys". David Hazell talks about using a white board which he hangs in a prominent location for all to see. It has each child's name on it, and all the individual subjects or other assignments underneath each child's name. So it might be independent school subjects, certain chores that must be done before they can play, AND it would even include a younger sibling's name under the older kids' names. So for example, 10yo Johnny has to spend some 1-on-1 time with 4yo Mickey while Mom is explaining a math concept to 8yo Susie; therefore, Mickey's name appears on the white board under Johnny's name. Anyway, hopefully that gives you an idea of how to adapt MFW for multiple ages, how to "beef up" for an older or advanced child, and how to include even a 4yo and 3yo sometimes. Your 3rd grader will fall somewhere in between all of that.... very likely able to do MOST of what the 10yo does, but not all. Your 1st grader is likely still learning to read? Just keep him/her in whatever phonics program is working, until he's able and ready to do more of the reading and writing that his older siblings are doing. He can still listen to most of the readings, though, and I would encourage him to read as much as possible either from books in MFW, or separate readers at his own level. (MFW does have a list of readers and chapter books in the back of the manual, behind Book Basket, which are completely unrelated to history or science... just pure classics like Frog and Toad and Pollyanna.) Does that help? Ask away if you're confused by something I've said, or have other questions. :)

My Father's World... You could start with either Exploring Countries & Cultures or Creation to the Greeks. http://www.mfwbooks.com/category/M50/40

I'm not sure what you used for the first time through history, but since you're going to get a complete cycle again in high school with MFW, my suggestion would be to do MFW Expl-1850 and 1850-Modern for 6th & 7th, then ECC in 8th... OR vice versa.... ECC in 6th, then EX1850 and 1850MOD in 7th & 8th. MFW uses SOTW 3 and 4 for those two years (plus other resources), and then there's Book Basket for adding as much age-appropriate extra reading as desired. Doing ECC either now OR right before high school would add a nice break from "history". So MFW would include Bible and other enrichment subjects that you want to use, and then of course he would do science and the 3 R's at his own level with whatever curriculum you like. He could do some of the science scheduled in MFW if he wants to, but it's not necessary at this level.

I'm not sure that grammar in and of itself is "inspiring" unless one happens to love the study of language. :lol: That being said, sometimes we just have to pick what will get the job done and nip the complaining because there will always be things in life that we don't *like*. Grammar is a good life lesson for most kids (and some moms!) in this regard. LOL I say pick what suits your budget, what's "easiest to use" for you and your son (re: your question in the subject line), and tell him up front that he isn't going to *like* everything he does, so he'll just have to live with the components that aren't inspiring or pleasing. Seriously, on the "comments and complaints all year", if R&S is what YOU think would be best for him, I would tell him up front that the complaining and criticizing is not acceptable. Sometimes we don't realize that when our kids are complaining, they're really just following our example, so we need to check ourselves, too. I have one in particular that has a habit of complaining.... she sounds like me. :001_huh: For example, I realized yesterday that I had done a LOT of complaining about a certain subject on Saturday, and realized that I was setting my daughters up to criticize every single detail of another person's wedding (which was really just FINE) because we wouldn't have done it that that way.... but the day (and the wedding) were overwith before it occurred to me how much criticizing I'd done. Listening to my daughter's comments afterwards was very revealing. :blushing: All that said, MY suggestion for you would be Abeka. You've always liked it, it's colorful, and it's thorough. I wouldn't let the minimal writing instruction stop me, because for one thing, it sounds like he's already done a lot of good quality writing and isn't really lacking in that area. For another, I can't imagine Abeka skimming too much at this level. I have to think that it'll come together in there somewhere, kwim? Especially if he's doing writing across the curriculum in other subjects, too. :001_smile:

The most recent changes in MFW were not that significant... more aesthetic than anything, as they changed covers and titles to adapt to their new "theme" which visually sets each learning stage apart from the others. Occasionally there have been tweaks here and there as some books were revised by their publishers, or a book here and there was completely replaced. (Some Usborne books which are now special "MFW editions", for example.) But the most significant change that they've ever done is when they created the separate Student Sheet sets vs. having them in back of the TMs for you to have to reproduce, since MFW is a multi-level program. This eliminated a good bit of prep time for Mom, particularly in ECC. As for writing, copywork, narrations (both written and oral), dictation, memory work, nature journaling, notebooking -- the "whole to parts" learning -- is incorporated all the way throughout the curriculum. An older or more advanced student would do more reading, more written narrations, longer dictation exercises, and more detailed notebooking and mapwork. This is in keeping with the CM philosophy of language arts. Also, in 1850-Modern, outlining is done via SOTW 4. (It's also taught in ILL, which is their recommendation for 4th-6th grade English. ILL is separated into three sections.) But other than that, more "formal" grammar and composition -- the "parts to whole" -- comes through whatever writing program you choose (whether you choose their recommendation or not). MFW can't include grade-level math and LA in the elementary lesson plans because it's a multi-level program -- meaning that in most families, there's multiples ages and learning levels doing the program. So every child always does math and LA at his own level.... plus the CM language arts assignments throughout the curriculum. (And some of those are labeled for "Advanced" students, or there's a separate grid targeted at either older or younger students. Depends on which year you're using.) The student coming from MFW elementary is (or should be) well prepared for high school level writing, which *is* scheduled as part of the English credit in the high school programs. But again, the high school programs aren't multi-level; each one is pretty specific to grade or skill level. Similar to HOD in that way, at the high school level. In elementary, it's about "family" learning, i.e., the one-room schoolhouse. So you kind of need to know, or be willing to learn, how to teach multiple levels at once, particularly in the content subjects. Their goal is not to re-create the school room in elementary, but to learn together as a family while strengthening your biblical worldview.

Bumping because I agree that consistency and time are two key factors in this. As a mom of two high schoolers, I can attest that it will all come together at some point. Eight or nine is still very young... to a mom with high schoolers. Perspective. ;) One comment that Nan made in the OP that was a lightbulb moment for me was the idea that whole-to-parts and parts-to-whole are BOTH important, and that they complement one another. They need both. I knew this inherently, as we are neither CM purists nor classical purists, nor would I call myself a textbooker, but we've used all of those methods through the years: both the whole-to-parts and the parts-to-whole. I had never thought to describe it that way, but I've always believed that the use of multiple types of resources bring balance. Another point that Nan made was study skills and working hard. (Actually, I think she was quoting Swimmermom on that last part.) My daughters don't do everything "perfectly" (that's never been our goal), but they know how to work hard and find answers. They rise to the challenge and are now both doing things that at one time I didn't think they'd ever do. I never imagined that dd #2 would want to be a writer, and possibly an English teacher someday... the child who had absolutely NO desire to learn how to read at the age of 6, and who used to always say that her favorite subject was "playing". :lol: I never imagined that dd #1 would decide that she wants to go ahead and pursue a 4-year degree rather than "just" a 2-year degree, and in fact who at one time had no desire to even GO to college... but now she's getting A's in college, finds the Comp 1 class miserably boring and easy (she considered CLEPing it but wanted the experience), and wants something more. :001_smile: And one more point that I want to reiterate... the skills that our kids are NOT good at need the MOST work. Don't give up and make it easy for them. Find another way to work on it, if necessary, but keep working on it. This may be the very area that he/she ends up pursuing at a higher level when they're older (like my dd who was never "good" in her LA skills and didn't care, either, but now wants to be a writer and teach English), but you won't know that unless you're diligent to make them work hard for it. If they whine and complain and make excuses to get out of it.... then address it as a character issue, address their posture or work surroundings, or whatever you gotta' do. But PLEASE, please train them to overcome the obstacles! Even if they never become excellent in that particular skill, they WILL improve and will be proud of having persevered. That's where my oldest is in math, who absolutely HATED it, never did well, I wasn't good at it so I couldn't help her much, and at one point we decided she just wouldn't "do" Algebra 2 at all. She did (after we switched to a math curriculum that she could actually understand), and yesterday she took the math placement test at college and is actually looking forward to College Algebra. She'll never be an engineer, but you know what? She is very proud of the fact that she didn't give up when she felt like it (and I was going to let her), and I'm proud of her for persevering through the fire.

Wow. This sounds incredibly tolerant. Not. :glare:

But only if you don't use the Book Basket in MFW. ;) As far as "density", the only difference between SL and MFW is that the extensive, multi-level booklist in the back of the TMs is optional and MFW doesn't sell every book that could possibly be read with each topic. One can use Book Basket in its entirety, either buying the books or getting them (or substitute titles) from the library, or one can use it partially, or one doesn't have to use it at all. In fact, many MFW users buy books from SL (or HOD) to use in lieu of Book Basket and the library... so it's the best of both worlds, so to speak. It just depends on the time, energy, interest level, and budget of each individual family, or even each child. Also, MFW sells ONE teacher's guide for ALL the content subjects... not a separate guide for every subject. Part of MFW's goal in its methodology is for efficiency. But efficient doesn't mean ineffective. Charlotte Mason was very efficient in her methods.

We recently watched "The Boy in Striped Pajamas"... only a few days after watching "The Hiding Place". My 11yo was fine with "The Hiding Place", but after the shocking ending of Striped Pajamas (which left us all just as speechless as it did the first time we saw it years ago), my 11yo said very emphatically, "I will never watch that movie again, and I won't make my kids watch it, either!" :crying:

I used to really love TTT and recommended it to everyone I knew. I have since learned that they write from a very Libertarian perspective... both politically and theologically. I no longer recommend this book to anyone.

Hhmm... I'm not sure where your comments in your posted reply went to :huh: but I did see them in the email notification I received, so I'll go ahead and respond, anyway. :001_smile: Which other TM did you have? The only one I can think of that you might be referring to is the old (1st ed.) of ECC, which had a completely different layout than it does now. In the old ECC, I think you're right, book basket options were listed with each separate unit or continent, rather than in the back of the manual. But otherwise, they've always been in the back.... one huge list taking up several pages back there (sort of like an Appendix, but it's not called that), and the titles are all divided up by week # and/or topic. Check Marie's Teaching Tips at the front of the manual... I think she discussed Progeny Press lit guides for 7th & 8th graders up there. It's also on the website on the Language Arts page. http://www.mfwbooks.com/products/M50/70/0/0/1#progeny (They have a few specific titles listed that they sell PP guides for, but you can use any you like.) I'm sorry you have a "bits and pieces" teacher's manual. That's odd. Yeah, if you're missing parts of the manual with all the "extras" that Marie provides or recommends, then you would definitely think MFW is way too light! :confused1: Might be worth it to just buy your own TM?

Did you not realize that MFW actually recommends Progeny Press at this level? ;) Also, have you looked through the Book Basket list in the back of the RTR manual? There's a TON of literature (and some movies, as well) -- classic lit, historical fiction, non-fiction -- in Book Basket. You can also get many of those titles on audio for variety. You could certainly get Omnibus to add to it for the questions if you want, but if you're having great discussions with your son from the assignments in RTR, you shouldn't really need Omnibus for that purpose. Does your son work completely independently, do you work or talk with him each day about what he's learning, does he do narrations, or do you meet with him at least weekly to go over his work for the week?

ECC has resources, assignments, and books included for a wide range of ages, so no, Preparing isn't necessarily more "rigorous" than ECC. ECC also has the junior high supplement package. ECC was written to be used with multiple ages and learning levels, so it would really be the most doable for combining children. Every child always does math and LA at their own level, anyway, so you can copy the grid for each child and write their individual 3 R's in on that, and then keep them in their portfolios for permanent recordkeeping. Now, the 3 R's can be the same things HOD recommends, or you can use MFW's recommendations, or whatever you want... it's up to you. If and when you do Preparing, you'll have to have separate resources in the 3 R's for the children, anyway. So what you really want to do is just combine the *content* subjects. One idea is to combine the two programs by stretching ECC out over two years, and really doing a lot with it. It's a unit study and is meant to be flexible. As such, you can add whatever you want to either beef it up (Book Basket is very full and includes titles for all ages from Pre-K to adult), doing ALL the hands-on activities with cooking, science, or whatever. A nature walk is scheduled every Wednesday, so you could expand on that if you want. Then perhaps you could add just the books from Preparing and read those in addition to ECC. Or perhaps you could "break" from ECC in between units (continents) to do another couple of weeks from Preparing. Or perhaps you could add just the "enrichment" subjects from Preparing such as Art and Poetry. There's really a lot you can do if you're creative and flexible... viewing both programs as "tools" for additional rabbit trails. It doesn't have to be one or the other... especially when combining children. BUT, I don't want to confuse you or make your decision harder than it has to be, either. ;) I do like your idea of adding the Cinderella stories to ECC... this alone could potentially stretch ECC out to two years, and then you may be ready for a straight chronological history plan after that, beginning with Creation to the Greeks. (Or something like that.)

Ana, I did mention that some students probably need a more formal method of learning how to write. ;) I realize CM isn't for everybody. And if CM's methods don't feel natural to the parent, that may sometimes be reflected on the student, too. I also mentioned that for CM methods to be effective, one must be consistent, encouraging, and enjoy the process. "Consistency" is a key word there, and it's done over time. I would ask anyone who's not seeing the results they hoped for if they've been consistent and encouraging, and enjoyed the process over a long period of time. IOW, I would want to know more about exactly what they're doing, how often, and for how long. I would also want to know exactly what they're using for writing models, but it's not just "writing models", either. It's also the active and regular skills of copywork, narrations, dictation, literature read... ALL of that plays a part in creating good (and natural) writers. There are just so many variables to this. But I have to disagree that CM's methods (in general) won't work for most people, if applied properly. Which brings me to a question, as I was wondering which of CM's writings are not a model of excellent writing, or "shining examples of clarity or of style". What writings do you mean? Her 6-book series that can be found on Ambleside's website? If so, those weren't intended to be models for the student. Those books were written to explain her philosophy and methods to parents and teachers. But if not that, then what other writings of hers do mean?

MFW elementary programs are meant to be combined with multiple ages (in a family that has multiple ages), so that's why you see a high school text and some other "older" books in there. If your oldest is only 1st or 2nd grade, you obviously wouldn't use those books intended for older/advanced kids. There's plenty to do in CTG without those older books, as it includes some "younger" books, too, age-appropriate hands-on activities and notebooking pages, and of course Book Basket. Since the K and 1st grade programs incorporate learning to read, not all 4yo's could do the K program, and not all 5yo's could do 1st grade. The 1st grade program starts out reviewing for several weeks, but then gets progressively and includes enough phonics that many curriculums do in 2nd grade. My 2nd dd was *just* starting to blend cvc words when she turned 6 (no LDs, just a late bloomer), and that would've been the right time to do MFW 1st with her. I wish I would have, because it would've helped her fine motor skills along very nicely. (It includes much more than just learning to read.) Someone mentioned not knowing whether Rome to Reformation covers the Bible well. It does. *Very* well. CTG goes thorugh big chunks of the OT, and then RTR covers big chunks of the NT -- both in context of history. Then in AHL and WHL (high school), they read the entire Old and New Testaments word for word, along with biblical worldview, apologetics, and church history. MFW is non-denominational specific... Marie always encourages the student and parents to discuss with each other, and/or with their pastor.

Is Admin going to respond to this? :confused1:

Nope, no code that time (with an image)! So apparently it's completely random? Either that or it's only affecting ME when I preview and send PMs, but it's happened EVERY time I've tried to do anything in PM. (And yes, I use the same computer nearly 100% of the time, so that has nothing to do with it.)

Nope, no security that time. Interesting. Now let's see what happens if I insert an image. :confused1:

I hadn't posted on the main board for a couple weeks or more (a few? I don't remember), but I've been communicating via PM with a couple gals the last few days, and I have to put in a code Every.Single.Time.... EVEN IF IT'S JUST TO PREVIEW MY POST BEFORE SENDING. Then I have to do it AGAIN when I actually send the post. I've typed a note in the text box three or four times asking Admin WHY I have to do this, and no response. It's still the same. I'm going to try to post this now and see if I get it again -- without any images or links in this post. Even though I feel like inserting several not-so-happy images.

Just goes to show how every family is different.... :001_smile: What we chose to do for history mattered a LOT to my oldest. Some kids really don't care, but others do, especially if they're history lovers. And since MFW's philosophy (in general) is to "teach to the oldest", it made sense to me to tailor it more for her than the younger ones. Especially since younger children will get the whole cycle while still in elementary, anyway. Oldest child does not get the whole cycle if the family joined in the progression at a later time, and didn't do it from the beginning. Meanwhile, since the explorers and some of that other fun early American stuff does get covered a bit in RTR, the younger children aren't totally missing out on it. And the OP in this case did do Adventures with them, too. Besides, IMO, it's a lot easier to find books, videos, and other fun activities to do "on the side" with younger kids for early American than it is for later American. (If the OP really feels like her kids are missing out on that, I mean.) Just my opinion, of course. But mainly, I'm thinking about the fact that younger kids will get to go through the whole cycle, and oldest won't. Theoretically, oldest will get the "whole cycle" if she does all 4 years of chronological history in high school, but high school has a very different feel to it than elementary. So even though all the time periods do get covered, and it's the same in that sense, it's not really. Plus, high school can end up being totally different than you think it will when you begin because -- at least with my oldest -- they start thinking about other things they really want to study while they're still at home, and there's only so much time in which to do it. Yes, history still has to get done, but as our teens are preparing for real life and college choices, this (along with state requirements) can affect WHAT they choose to study for history, whether they really need to do 4 years of history or only 3 (or even 2), and so many other things. So.... Just based on OUR experience here, I wouldn't choose what to study during the last 3 years of elementary/middle school based on the assumption that they'll get it all again in high school. Because they might not. Really. Or if they do, it'll be "different". Whereas during the elementary years, Mom really does have more control over it. (Thinking of the younger siblings there.)

You don't have to have done the lower grades of MUS to switch into it later. Give your child the placement test, and be sure to place where it *says* he/she places... don't jump ahead if the test seems to indicate a "borderline" result and you think he can do the next level anyway. MUS assumes mastery of everything prior to each level, so if you jump into Pre-Alg with any gaps (and the placement test is good about indicating gaps), you'll feel it. Ask me how I know. :glare: I ended up using R&S to teach those gaps to dd #2 after I put her in MUS Pre-Alg. Once we got past that, it was fine, but the placement tests are there for a purpose. ;) (FYI, the reason she asked to switch back to Saxon, which I mentioned above, wasn't because she wasn't doing well in MUS. She just didn't like the style/method and wanted something that felt more "textbookish".)

Coming back to add that my 9th grader didn't like MUS as well as her sister did, and she asked to go back to Saxon. Go figure. :tongue_smilie: I bought the DIVE CD and MFW lesson plans to use with Saxon this time.

How old is your son, and what's the timeframe? IOW, when do you plan to start SL? The reason I ask is because, as the pp said, age might help determine whether you do one of the Volumes 1-3 vs.Volume 4. OR, you might do ONE of the Volumes 1-3 first, and then follow up with Volume 4. The author of FIAR has a suggested "seasonal" schedule in the back of the FIAR manuals 1-3... or at least the older editions include that, I don't know if the newer printings do or not. Anyway, you can do the FIAR volumes in any order that you want because each one stands alone. Volumes 1-3 are all at the same level, as the pp said. But if you want to match them up seasonally, then Volume 1 works well in the fall, volume 2 in the second semester, and Volume 3 in the spring/summer.

Well, I'll tell ya what.... If we hadn't switched to MUS, my 12th grader would not be going to college because she would've failed high school math, and she felt like a complete failure. My heart was broken for her. :sad: Math has always been a struggle for her, and it's been a struggle for me to teach her because even if I understood the concept, I just didn't know how to explain it in a way that she could understand. We stumbled through math for YEARS. I resisted getting MUS because I kept reading negative comments about it, so I kept trying other more "acceptable" math programs with her. In hindsight, she would have understood math better if we'd just switched to MUS a long time ago. (My other favorite for the elementary years is Rod & Staff because *I* understand the teacher manuals so well, I can actually teach it and help my child when she gets stuck.) I also don't think my oldest would've done as well on the ACT as she did. In fact, I know she wouldn't have because her math score improved significantly between the first time she took the ACT and the second time. In between those two test dates, she did MUS Algebra 2. She wouldn't have even DONE Alg 2 if I hadn't switched her to MUS for Geometry after a complete bomb with Alg 1 in another popular program. I chose MUS Geometry for her just to "get it done" so that I could put a grade on the transcript. It turned out to be the absolutely BEST math program I could've chosen for her. She did so well with it that SHE decided she wanted to go ahead and do Alg 2 after all. (I was going to let her blow off Alg 2 because I couldn't see the point of torturing her with it.) And she no longer *hates* math. ;) Had this daughter used MUS all along, she likely would have completed every course that MUS offers all the way through Calculus, or at least Pre-Calc. As it is, she had to stop after Alg 2 because she was out of time because we spent so much time trying to get through Pre-Alg and Alg 1 with other programs. And I wasted a LOT of money. All because I thought she needed to be doing something "better" than MUS. :glare: (Plus, I don't know about older editions of MUS, but in the latest editions, Mr. Demme actually gives a lot of test-taking tips in order to help prepare for standardized testing.)

I partially answered this on the other board (or at least I think I did, LOL), but I'll answer again just to help you re-think through it again, and for the benefit of other readers who don't see it over there. My vote is to either skip CTG or skip Expl-1850... but DON'T skip RTR or 1850-Modern. Reasons to choose skipping CTG (and do RTR, Expl-1850, and 1850-Modern): - RTR has review at the beginning which help fill in enough background to be able to move on. This is what we did, and it worked fine. Especially since my two older girls at the time had done a lot of Old Testament at church/Sunday School, so they already knew a good bit of the "highlights" covered in CTG. - Your oldest is a lot closer to doing the CTG time period in high school than she is to doing American history (which means it would be repeated sooner). For some of the specific elements in CTG that aren't included in MFW AHL, such as memorizing the Ten Commandments and doing the Jewish feasts as they come up on the calendar, you could have your oldest participate with her younger sisters when they do CTG, if she has the time and interest. - A pretty big chunk of Preparing covers the same material that's covered in MFW CTG, so your oldest already has some background there. - For our family personally, going through RTR really helped open our eyes to understanding the relationship between the New Testament, Ancient Rome, and Paul's teachings for the church a whole lot better than we'd ever understood before. We hadn't been taught a lot of that in the churches we'd been in; in fact, my dh hadn't even been taught the NT in context very well in Bible college! :001_huh: Later, when we did start attending a church that actually taught/teaches these things, and the book of Romans was taught *very* thoroughly to the adults and teens over the period of about 4 years, we had lightbulbs coming on all over the place because of the foundation we had from having done RTR. Now for reasons to choose skipping Expl-1850 (and do CTG, RTR, 1850-Modern): - 1850-Modern has review at the beginning to help fill in enough background to be able to move on. - 1850-Modern is the least thoroughly covered time period in the elementary years with most curriculums, and Expl-1850 is the most thoroughly covered. In fact, the explorers and "very early American" are touched on in RTR, too. - I personally think the biblical worldview part of 1850-Modern is VERY applicable to us today with how fast the changes around us are taking place. I appreciate that MFW doesn't focus on *just* America during this time period (like you find in most 8th grade American history textbooks). In order to understand how America works, we need to know what's going on, and has gone on, in the rest of the world, too. (And that's another reason I wouldn't want to skip RTR... RTR is really the "setup" for America, just as Ancient Rome is the "setup" -- and the setting -- for the New Testament and time of Christ. I believe this is vital to the church, and NOT understanding this has hurt the church today.) Whichever you choose, keep in mind that if you have an enthusiastic 7th or 8th grade learner in MFW, it's very easy to add more for depth if she's interested by adding more from Book Basket, and requiring more writing and other projects from her. You can also "beef up" these years by focusing more on her weak spots in the 3 R's, science, or electives. OTOH, if she's not that enthusiastic about history at this time, you can do just what's on the grid and skip all the extras. One other possible option to throw at ya': There's a thread on the MFW forums in which some ideas were given for doing "CTG and RTR in one year", so you might want to take a look at it. Here's the link: http://board.mfwbooks.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14237&p=96241&hilit=CTG+and+RTR#p96241 HTH. :001_smile: