8circles
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Posts posted by 8circles
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I didn't see anything in the story where he violated her. Was he a pushy jerk? Absolutely. But there is a difference between being selfish & aggressive in his pursuit and forcing himself on a victim who is ACTUALLY refusing him (not just hoping he'll be a mind reader as this young women apparently did).
It is a violation of her personhood to start with the assumption of consent and act accordingly.
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If he is forcing women to have sex with him, then he does need extra guardanship. It's called jail.
So a woman needs extra guardianship because she's been conditioned to be "nice" but he only needs it if he forces women to have sex with him.
The bars are pretty uneven.
Oh wait, uneven bars don't exist. Nevermind.
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Yes, my take on this situation and numerous posts in this thread simply boil down to my own ignorance because I disagree with your take on internalized misogyny and women's agency.
If you deny that internalized misogyny is an actual thing, then yes - you lack understanding.
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Thy do actually.
Not in the context that they'd suggest it with women, since that hasn't been a problem.
They do actually what? Suggest that men need extra guardianship? Where? Who? Did *you* suggest it?
Did you miss people saying that women can't say no to men because they are scared of rape or assault?
No, I didn't miss women saying they are afraid of saying "no". Is that an indication of a problem with the women or a problem with the men? I have no idea what your point is.
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It might be creepy, but what people are describing here in terms of lack of agency is absolutely why people used to think women needed that kind of care, even up to my mother's generation.
It's not irrational to point out that the argument people are making is the same one that said that women could not be responsible parties.
The feminist argument that said that no, women should be allowed the same freedoms to make decisions as men did so on the basis that women were just as able to make decisions and negotiate sexual situations as men are, at least when you aren't at the point of actual assault or threats. And it also said that adult women are mature enough to handle the kinds of misunderstandings and personal issues (like being shy or confused or dealing with someone unpleasant) that will come up in these situations.
I find it profoundly disturbing that people are making arguments that point directly to women being incapable of consent.
And women are capable of consenting and being empowered. The answer, in the face of the result of conditioning to remove our power, is not to reiterate the argument used at the beginning of time to strip us of our voice, but to advocate for changing the culture of conditioning of both men and women.
It's funny how nobody says about the man, that if he doesn't know how to behave then he needs extra guardianship. Or maybe not so funny.
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Who is training women to be helpless?
I mean, I get people coming out of abusive situations and having issues, but societally we're a long way from training women to be helpless in America in 2018.
The point about guardanship is not that I seriously believe that needs to happen. It's a superlative to emphasize the fact that if a woman can't even say she wants a different kind of wine, much less decide for herself when she does and doesn't want to makeout with a guy, then, yeah, there are serious problems happening there. I don't believe, honestly, that most women are trained to be that helpless and I think that's why most reactions to the article have been along the lines of, "uh, just ask for red wine, lady."
Then you don't understand what internalized misogyny is.
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Do you really think that in a culture with no misogyny, everyone would be able to manage these things without problems? It's just as likely someone doesn't speak up because of natural reticence, being shy, not knowing what to say, being unsure about his or her own preferences... there are 100 reasons.
Getting into a situation you aren't comfortable with and being unsure how to get out gracefully is pretty ubiquitous in the hook-up dating culture. Not being sure what you want in an interaction is pretty ubiquitous in the under-25 dating experience.
I don't think anyone thinks women should always be supervised - they are responding to people saying that she couldn't get out of going home with him, ask for different wine - a really incredible level of helplessness akin to what you'd use to describe a child. How can you talk about consent being possible at all at that point - it wouldn't be possible to obtain legal consent - and that seems to imply the necessity for extra guardianship.
Nope. There are always some women who will naturally be less empowered than others. But we cannot on the one hand condone (through pretense of equality) the conditioning into weakness that women have experienced throughout centuries and then on the other, expect them to be empowered. Let's ACTUALLY CHANGE our culture to empower women. EXPLICITLY. It's cruel and a form of gaslighting to train them to be one way and then expect them to be different.
Your repeated talk of "extra guardianship" is creepy. Truly. There is no rational conversation possible here if you keep throwing that out there.
You will be taught to be helpless.
You've now proven that you're helpless.
You need extra supervision because you're helpless.
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This isn't sexual assault. It shouldn't fall under #metoo. It is an extremely important conversation to have nontheless.
I'm actually appalled by the idea that seems to be coming out of the conversation that if a woman doesn't know how to handle herself by immediately saying "no" and walking out, she should not be allowed to be unsupervised.
It's as if internalized misogyny isn't a real thing. We are all just raised in families and in cultures where women are empowered just the same as men. Nothing to see here. Move along.
And in CHURCHES.
How many advocates to we have - on this site - who talk about complementarianism as if it puts men and women on equal footing, empowering them both, equally. Except that the man "has the final say".
How many people belong, or condone, fundamentalist ideas of what "good"/"modest" women should wear - where it is exclusively men in charge and making the rules.
I swear, it's like all of a sudden we're in bizarro world where men and women are actually equal. Is that how people go to their happy-place? Just pretend it's all OK and continue to heap the responsibility onto the women's back.
ETA: in orange
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This isn't sexual assault. It shouldn't fall under #metoo. It is an extremely important conversation to have nontheless.
I'm actually appalled by the idea that seems to be coming out of the conversation that if a woman doesn't know how to handle herself by immediately saying "no" and walking out, she should not be allowed to be unsupervised.
It's as if internalized misogyny isn't a real thing. We are all just raised in families and in cultures where women are empowered just the same as men. Nothing to see here. Move along.
AND.
I detest that this conversation centers so much around women and how they behave - even though their behavior, bad or good, has nothing to do with violating someone else.
This conversation should be about men. Why/How have we conditioned men to approach this situation with entitlement?
She said she remembers him asking again and again, “Where do you want me to fuck you?†while she was still seated on the countertop. She says she found the question tough to answer because she says she didn’t want to fuck him at all.
He isn't asking for consent, consent is assumed.
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This isn't sexual assault. It shouldn't fall under #metoo. It is an extremely important conversation to have nontheless.
I'm actually appalled by the idea that seems to be coming out of the conversation that if a woman doesn't know how to handle herself by immediately saying "no" and walking out, she should not be allowed to be unsupervised.
It's as if internalized misogyny isn't a real thing. We are all just raised in families and in cultures where women are empowered just the same as men. Nothing to see here. Move along.
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An illegal immigrant does not immediately become a productive member of society. Eventually? Sure, it’s possible. But there is absolutely a period of time when an illegal immigrant is likely to have no income, no fixed address, and not a lot of options for having those things.
Don’t pick my analogy apart; the squatter part was not important. What was important was that the person was fleeing a very bad living environment and did not go through legal channels to rent the home. And if someone did come out to my nice, suburban apartment home from a bad place in West Baltimore, there’s a good chance they are not bathing in money - just like someone who just spent nine months getting to this country illegally.
I'm not out to pick your analogy apart, but the basic premise of your analogy doesn't work.
Someone squatting in an apartment that you own is not the same, in any way except that it isn't legal, as someone being in the country that I am a citizen of.
There just are not similarities.
I don't *own* my country in the same way that I would own an apartment that I rent out. Their existence isn't taking anything from me.
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Compassion does not appear to rank high as a value for current politicians in power. Sadly.
Compassion does not appear to rank high as a value for many Americans.
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This is why we stopped using MOH in the middle of a school year. Not that particular entry; we never got so far as the Salem Witch Trials. But the author made history to much about herself. She was always referencing herself, “I think this is a great story in history!†“I think this part is just wonderful, don’t you?†That was bad enough, but then I noticed that she would speculate from time to time about what might have happened—just like you said with the Salem entry.
I didn’t really want a history program that told me the author’s opinion and speculations on history and I normally enjoy a chatty style of writing, but this was beyond mere chattiness to me.
Yes - I hated it. My one son was using it in the co-op we joined - against my better judgment but I digress - and he wasn't able to keep up with the reading so I purchased the audio version. It was painful. She was always inserting herself into history. I noticed right away and told myself to say nothing, maybe the kids wouldn't notice - but they did. It could have been a drinking game.
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I am not looking for a response from those who are faithfully attending a church and are eager to back up the Biblical reasons to stay plugged into a church setting. I know those reasons/thoughts/feelings. I have heard them my entire life. My dad is a pastor.
Just a reminder.
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To your update, OP.
First, I want to say that I'm not in any way trying to make it sound like you've done something wrong with her. I think in these discussions it's so automatic that the mom feels inappropriate guilt. Don't. You are a good mom. We all make mistakes - whether or not you have here is not really relevant IMO.
Second, while I appreciate the advice to just shut her complaints down and don't let her beat you up - I think that's just a first step in order to put up an appropriate boundary for yourself. At some point, hopefully soon, you need to start thinking about what kind of relationship you will have with her. You might want to consider going to counseling with her so that you can help her work through the negative feelings she has towards you. You know that she has a mental illness and I think it isn't fair to leave it only up to her to get it treated. You presumably wouldn't do that for other maladies.
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Typical? No.
Is it possible that she sees something you don't? Sure. Possible.
Is it possible that she is just immature and will grow out of it or have a light-bulb moment if you just ignore it? Possible, but not likely.
Personally, if this is the same child that you have posted about having a horrible attitude and always feeling aggrieved, I think it sounds like she will need help to change it. When she isn't having a negative ranting moment, you might gently bring up the subject of her unhappiness, express sorrow on her behalf, and suggest you both look into getting some professional assistance to work through those feelings.
I think just ignoring it expecting her to heal herself is cruel. She sounds miserable.
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I am curious about the experiences of those who have stepped away from church but not away from God.
What events caused you to stop being involved with a local church? I have not entirely stepped away from church - I still attend pretty regularly but have stepped away from anything more than that. I hope that my answers will be relevant. I felt the need for distance because of a certain thread running through Xianity which I find heretical and there are/were some other congregants which very vocally endorsed this thread.
How long have you be out of church? I started stepping away about 1.5/2 years ago.
How has this changed/affected your life, your relationship with God, and your friendship with others? It has troubled me that I felt the separation was necessary. But I have felt some relief and having the space to think and breathe has been good for my soul. It has been 100% good for my relationship with God and I've never been as at peace as I am now. I feel like I've finally been able to exhale and give my faith over to God more than ever. I have paid the price in losing friendships with people who had bare minimums which I don't meet.
Do you do anything to try to meet or be with other believers? Yes - I do still attend church fairly regularly so maybe my answers won't be relevant. I do this more for consistency & convenience within my family. I also don't find attending services to be harmful at the moment - if I did I would not attend.
Is this (or was it) a temporary situation for you or do you imagine that you will someday return to a church? I do expect to become more involved in church at some point. I expect it to be at the same church/denomination as I am at currently but that could change.
I apologize if this might seem limiting to add, but I am not looking for a response from those who are faithfully attending a church and are eager to back up the Biblical reasons to stay plugged into a church setting. I know those reasons/thoughts/feelings. I have heard them my entire life. My dad is a pastor.
ETA: I am mainly just curious about other's experiences. We have been having our own struggles lately, yes, but we have come to no conclusions.
I know that this is a really difficult place to be but I encourage you to push through the struggle, no matter where you end up in the end.
We will have to agree to disagree, because I completely and entirely disagree with your statements and find what you’re saying to be incredibly judgmental.
I’ll leave the judging of others and their spirituality to God, and I would suggest that you might want to consider trying to do the same. :)
There is a belief by some that not only is this kind of judgment allowed, but that it is required in order to be faithful.
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This thread is giving me flashbacks to my tenure as president of the booster club for about 60 competitive gymnasts. Yowza, there is just no way to do enough for some people. You emailed once? You should have emailed twice. You posted on FB? Well, you should have sent a note home as well. You single-handedly organized a sit-down banquet for 100 with no budget and no notice? Where is my vegetarian option? Can I get a discount if I skip dessert? You organized a complicated sale of spirit wear, and I missed all 14 notices about try-on dates, and my stuff does not fit—can get a refund? It sure made me dislike a lot of people for a while, and it gave me an entirely new perspective on true volunteers. My mantra now is not to complain unless the next words out of my mouth are going to be, “Here. Let me do that.â€
And the thing that makes it so frustrating is the justification:
Sending 2 emails is really not asking too much.
Copying and pasting into a flyer really isn't that big of a deal.
It isn't too much to ask to have a vegetarian option.
It isn't fair to pay for dessert if you don't eat it.
It is only right to be able to return stuff that doesn't fit.
All of those statements are pretty reasonable. But they eliminate the responsibility of the group members and put it all on the volunteer organizer. In that context, they are no longer reasonable.
ETA: Oh, and this whole stay up all night because it's all about the people & relationships - gag me with a spoon. Volunteers are people, too, with relationships of their own OUTSIDE of their volunteer duties and group members would be wise to remember that.
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That is funny
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6 families.
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So, I've not read all the replies.
But I'm a volunteer who coordinates lots of things. In fact, I had so much to do over the last couple of days that I didnt even sleep at all from Monday morning until late wednesday. And it's not a big deal to me to post on facebook, screenshot it and then text it to the few who need it. I do it all the time.
The op was in a Facebook group with 6 people. The volunteer can send a text. If I'm in a group, especially leading, of 6 people, I know them pretty well. I make a point of that. I can easily avoid schedule conflicts, and keep everything running smoothly by having a relationship with the people I'm spending time with. "Hey Sue, does Joey still have gymnastics on Tuesday?" "Ok, great, I can schedule the awards banquet that night?"
Groups are about the people, and connections with the people. Good leadership is about the people.
I find this ridiculous.
I'm glad that you're such a superstar. I can tell you feel really good about that. That's really fantastic.
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IME Zoloft increased appetite. I don't remember if it suppressed it right away and then changed or if it was like that from the get-go. But I believe that these meds affect people differently so YMMV - I definitely believe it can affect appetite.
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guys, 20 years ago we were having the same arguments about email.
"Oh but I hate having to check the computer! I don't even turn it on every day! Why can't Jane just call me about the playgroup meeting?! I mean what is wrong with the phone trees that we've had for the last 10 years!!!!! I prefer to get a phone call!"
Remember that person who joined a group and said oh she doesn't have email or can't remember it or gave an email address but then told you she never checks it?? Jeez that was annoying.
I'm Team "Apologize to the organizer, make a dummy fb account as instructed above and just move on"
Exactly.
And all this aversion to FB because they try to hook you in as if that's something new and frightening. You know, like soap operas and serial stories in print or on the radio. Even books - people used to think that people would stop talking to each other because they'd be too busy reading books. The horror.
Use FB or don't use FB. But don't make it someone else's problem that you don't like the current means of communication.
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So, am I understanding that even if the OP takes the burden of seeking out the information via text/email, etc she is STILL the problem?
If I text a leader and say ,"Hey, I'm just confirming the meeting is at 4:00. And no changes, right?" That is a hardship to the leader? To text , "yep. no changes."?
It depends. If it is simply to confirm meeting times, then it's probably fine. But if she isn't getting ANY information in any other way, it's probably not just meeting times. Although honestly, confirming meeting times via text every week would also drive me batty.
If someone opted out of the communication method that a group I led was using, I'd be very irritated to have to re-iterate all the communication with said person when they called/texted/emailed.
Because it's just one. more. thing. that I'd have to do, knowing that there are people who don't appreciate the work I put in. Which is apparent in the comments like "That is a hardship to the leader?" Because, yes, it can be. And if it is, it doesn't mean they are a bad leader. Sometimes people are bad group-members.
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Aziz Anseri situation
in The Chat Board
Posted
What if I'm not applying it at all, I'm acknowledging it's existence?
It was you who said women weren't conditioned in America in 2018. You deny that it exists today. It appears that you think that our culture equally empowers men and women.