8circles
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Posts posted by 8circles
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4 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:
Sometimes I think that people who say things like that guy did have been prompted by the devil. THat's maybe magical thinking on my part, but it's a very strong impression nonetheless. That' not to say that is their intent, or even that they are saying something totally untrue - after all, something totally untrue might not be very convincing. It may well have been just what the postman needed. But why does a statement like that appear exactly where it is (not!) needed? It does almost seem malevolent.
Anyway - this business of there being some greater good that comes out of suffering, even if we don't see it. Well, sure, God can create good out of bad. But suffering as an act of God to achieve some outcome - no no no. I think that's a very unchristian view. Suffering is a result of the Fall, and all of the fall-out from that - disease, death, unkindness, cruelty, etc, are the playing out of the rift between God and the world. I think there is a huge difference between saying - God allowed free will in order to preserve a kind of consciousness, and God purposefully inflicted a painful event on someone to get some result like a cure or whatever. It may be that God uses the suffering and bad things to create good outcomes, indeed Scripture refers to this, but again, that seems very different to me.
There are lots of questions around how that works of course, but I think the idea that God will make something bad happen to achieve some good should be clearly identified as not from a Christian worldview.
Great post.
I do think that this business of God purposely inflicting pain can get very tricky for a great number of xians, particularly when studying the OT. I know that it is always hotly debated in the adult Sunday School class.
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5 hours ago, StellaM said:
I expressed an educated opinion, quoting a poster who is not yourself, and with whom I had a short and friendly interaction following.
Your reaction is disproportionate, particularly considering you are neither the OP nor the quoted poster.
I won't be responding further.
An educated opinion doesn't make it not hurtful. The fact that this is a known topic to you makes it even more surprising that you'd make such a statement.
My reaction is not disproportionate.
- hurtful comment
- that comment was hurtful
- do you know who I am?
Now THAT's charming.
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1 hour ago, Joker said:
I will say that my ds only does this with me. I don't worry about trying to train him in how to deal with everyone else in the world because he deals with them beautifully. His, and my, psychologist just like to say that I am his super safe place. He once had such awful anxiety he could barely leave the house at all but now he's on no meds and functions just fine. But, when he gets in his head like your dd it is always me that he has those types of convos with and they can be often at this stage (transitioning to adult hood and college). He doesn't spend time projecting his issues and faults onto everyone else. I guess I am how he vents and deals with that anxiety at the moment. Yes, it can be really frustrating and draining for me but I know it won't be this way forever and I know it's truly just as frustrating and draining for him. So, when I said I let these little things go, just agree and reaffirm and don't offer up my own judgements/opinions, that is where I am coming from.
I really appreciate what you've said in this thread. I think it's great that you've learned how to deal with your child in a helpful way, even though you aren't a counselor.
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Oblivious blessing guy is why I'm so suspect of people who are "so blessed" or "so full of joy".
They hurt people because they're too focused on themselves.
I'm sorry.
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1 hour ago, StellaM said:
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt here, as you're actually one of my FB friends, and assume you don't mean to be as hurtful as this comes across.
The advice to 'just parent, don't try to be the counsellor' came to me from mental health care professionals, including a very experienced mental health care social worker. The reason for this is that 1. burn out is real, and it's unfair to moms to ask they take on that role, as well as the role of mom. and 2. it's not always helpful to the child you are trying to counsel.
Reflective listening is a core counselling skil that has entered the general discourse, and while it has a role in some conversations, I don't believe what the OP describes is one of those conversations, because in that context it prolongs the behaviour of reassurance seeking.
The advice to limit the amount of reassurance you supply the anxious child/teen/young adult is pretty standard, and came to me from a pyschologist who worked with my younger dd to manage her debilitating generalised anxiety as a young teen. Obviously, this doesn't mean a parent withdraws all reassurance; indeed, giving some reassurance is important. However, just as important is knowing when to ask the child to rely on the reassurance already given.
I have been actively caring for my kids, two of whom have a mental illness, one more mildly, the other more chronically and severely, for quite some time now. I am not speaking from a position of advocating lack of care for anxious kids. I am also not speaking from a position of ignorance around the dynamic the OP describes, nor from ignorance around what anxiety is, how anxiety can be managed, and how debilitating anxiety can be.
I hope that assuages your concerns about what you perceive as 'irresponsible advice' for the OP.
I will also note that dealing with anxiety in children and even teens is very different to dealing with it, as a parent, in young adults. What might be developmentally appropriate with a 7 year old, or even a 12 year old, is not appropriate with a 20 year old.
Your post was hurtful and condescending and you can give me the benefit of the doubt or not - I don't care.
Parents can and should help their children by learning to speak to them in helpful ways when necessary. That doesn't replace a counselor. Not all parents are able to, but it isn't inappropriate for them to do so and the advice that Lori gave was not inappropriate.
You made a hurtful comment. Do not turn around and say my expressing my hurt is hurtful to you.
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6 hours ago, StellaM said:
I politely disagree that mothers need to use counselling skills in order to talk to their adult children. Reflective listening has its place; in a robust relationship between mother and daughter, speech can and should be more natural. If an adult child requires counselling, they should make an appointment with a counsellor.
Normal family interaction does not need to meet therapeutic requirements.
I seriously needed to step away from the computer when I read this.
Nobody has suggested that as a rule, mothers need to use counselling skills in order to talk to their adult children.
Anxiety is a read medical condition and to suggest that a mother should not learn techniques to speak to her child with anxiety in a way that is helpful for her child in that medically fragile moment is irresponsible at best.
Do you also hire a nurse to administer abx to your child? Or is it just mental illness that you think doesn't deserve parental care?
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1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:
Agree, it's beyond confusing and so I have to accept that I can't understand it. But I am NOT telling you that you should do that, I've had a different life and not the same tragedy and can't begin to say how I'd react in a different life and circumstance. But for me the only answer is to believe God loves you and grieves with you, because that is the only thing that reconciles with the God I know through Jesus.
Quill, you and I so often find ourselves on opposite sides, I'm surprised that I am relating to what you are saying. I totally understand every word you've said on this topic.
Katie, this is a great post.
There are no answers to my questions. God must love me because it's the only thing that makes sense for me & my survival, based on what I know to be true. And I'm still here.
God loves you because there is goodness in the world and goodness is, well, I just don't think anything is anything without goodness.. Nothing else makes sense, even if I don't know the details.
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10 minutes ago, Katy said:
How would she react if when she accused you of disagreeing with her work ethic you blinked three times slowly and said, "What? How did you get that? Of course you've been working hard, why would you assume I didn't think so?"
But she wasn't wrong - her mother thought her work ethic was lacking.
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It is extremely depressing knowing that there are people out there who would look at the million choices I make every day and critique every single one that was "less than ideal".
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I am not saying that your DD suffers from anxiety, but she is showing that she feels anxious about this topic. And honestly, as someone who suffers from anxiety, the way her decision to have a friend over during finals has been described as "not ideal' and "She knows you are right" makes me really twitchy.
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3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:
No, I think it's paternalistic of parents to hide their differing opinions from adult kids. Just like part of being an adult is realizing that your kids will make different choices than you, sometimes even disapprove, part of it is realizing your parents make different choices, and sometimes disapprove.
If people disagreeing, even disapproving, makes people feel judged to the point that they are desperate for approval, that's the problem. Not the fact that adults disagree with each other over substantial things.
If your child is having a hard time not being OK with dispproval, it would be good to help them out by not expressing your disapproval until they feel more secure.
This adult kid is only 19, not 29. It isn't as if on their 18th birthday they are all of a sudden secure in their adult choices and no longer care what their parents think.
Is the issue in the OP a substantial thing? Not to me. It's having a friend over during finals.
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Just now, goldberry said:
I'm mulling this over, but I'm not sure why what I said was wrong.
Because this is when parents and newly-adult kids need to change their relationship dynamic, so that she can become a confident, independent adult. She needs to stop relying on your validation/approval/agreement and you need to stop judging her choices. Judging sounds like a harsh word - I don't think you're judgmental in that horrible way that people hate. But you are judging that her choice to have a visitor when she was supposed to be studying was not the right one.
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3 minutes ago, goldberry said:
Example:
She's very nervous about a final coming up this week at college. "I'm worried about the final".
"I'm sure you'll do okay."
"I've worked so hard, I've done everything I could."
"yes, you have been working hard."
"What?"
"What do you mean, what?"
"You think I didn't study enough?"
"No sweetie I never said that".
"But you don't think I should have had X come visit last weekend. I could tell you sounded surprised he was coming the weekend before finals."
"Well, that's not a choice I would have made, when you were worried about having time to study. But it's over now anyway, so no point in dragging it out."
"I needed to see him! I've been working so hard and I needed a break!"
"And that was your choice. So just move on, it'll be fine."
Followed by long conversation of her saying why it was right for her to have him visit, how she really needs me to know that she has been working hard, etc, which I say yes she has, let's talk about something else.
You can see that it's mostly she is insecure in her own decisions and doesn't want me to think badly of her. I disagree with the decision, but I don't think badly of her. What else am I supposed to say, besides that and trying to exit?
This is not isolated, there are lots of convos like this.
Woah, woah, woah. This is not what I was picturing.
The bolded is where you went wrong lol.
"No, I think you've been working really hard."
I think the only thing you can do here is keep telling her that she is an adult who is capable of making her own choices. Some of them might be wrong. It's up to her to determine that.
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2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:
My interpretation of the OP is that this is actually exactly the problem. That the DD needs her mother to tell her the choice is right, even if the OP sees the options as equally valid.
Why would someone need to bite their tongue if someone made a different, equally valid choice than mine?
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2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:
I think there’s a difference between “disapproval” and “disagreement.” Disapproval, to me, implies that there is a right or wrong choice. Disagreement means that I might make a different choice but that doesn’t make either of us right or wrong.
Since the OP has used both terms, I don't know which one applies.
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4 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:
I think with people who are this way, two things cause change. One is more comfort with their own choices. But the other can be seeing that the arguing really is unpleasant for others.
I don't know about stopping judging. Disagreeing is not judging choices, and framing it that way seems kind of paternalistic to me. Moms should be free to think they'd do things differently. Kids that are nearly grown up need to realize their parents are their own people, separate from themselves, with their own ideas, and that is ok.
What do you mean? I'm being paternalistic to goldberry?
I don't know that there's really a meaningful difference between disagreement and judgment in this situation. If my parent were to disagree with my choice, they would be judging my choice as wrong. I guess one could argue the semantics of it but I'd be willing to bet that the OP's DD feels judged. That's why she needs approval. If it were truly a disagreement or a choice between 2 equally valid options, I doubt she would care if her mother picked the other one.
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2 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:
I think with people who are this way, two things cause change. One is more comfort with their own choices. But the other can be seeing that the arguing really is unpleasant for others.
I don't know about stopping judging. Disagreeing is not judging choices, and framing it that way seems kind of paternalistic to me. Moms should be free to think they'd do things differently. Kids that are nearly grown up need to realize their parents are their own people, separate from themselves, with their own ideas, and that is ok.
Yeah, as long as you can do so without people feeling your disapproval. Biting your tongue in such a way that your newly-adult-child can tell you disapprove is not healthy or appropriate.
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Just now, 8circles said:
I think, though, that you're focus is in the wrong place. This is not something that can be "fixed" quickly. Not that that's what you're asking - I'm working this clumsy so forgive me.
You are framing this problem as your DD who needs approval. Which might be a problem, might not. I think it's very natural for children to need that approval/validation from their parents and it doesn't stop just because of their age. She will continue needing your approval until she feels secure.
I think it would be more productive for you to focus on why you are judging your DD's choices (since I don't know the specifics I can only assume they aren't super important choices). And then stop doing that.
Until then, "Sweetheart, I know you want me to approve of this choice but you don't really need my approval. You are 19 and some of your choices might be the wrong ones. That's OK. You'll be OK. I love you. I support you & I will continue to do so unless I see you making a choice that really frightens me. Then I'll let you know."
"Oh, and I'm sorry that you can sense my disapproval sometimes. I'm working on that."
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I think, though, that you're focus is in the wrong place. This is not something that can be "fixed" quickly. Not that that's what you're asking - I'm working this clumsy so forgive me.
You are framing this problem as your DD who needs approval. Which might be a problem, might not. I think it's very natural for children to need that approval/validation from their parents and it doesn't stop just because of their age. She will continue needing your approval until she feels secure.
I think it would be more productive for you to focus on why you are judging your DD's choices (since I don't know the specifics I can only assume they aren't super important choices). And then stop doing that.
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I totally relate about your brother - I have different circumstances but my situation is similar in the important ways. We don't have a relationship. I love him as much as any other person that I don't have a relationship with. I would still say that I love him, but I think that without a relationship it's really quite meaningless.
I don't like him or not like him either.
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49 minutes ago, goldberry said:
Okay, so I've never been a "my kid is nothing but wonderful" sort of mom. I am honest in my criticism and also generous with praise.
Why are you offering criticism to your adult DD? Why are you biting your tongue? She can sense your disapproval. If it isn't such a big deal, you shouldn't be so judgmental about it. If you stop being judgmental, you won't have any need to bite your tongue.
In other words, don't pick anything up and there will be nothing to drop.
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6 minutes ago, Quill said:
This is something that resonates with me more (though I know this next thing I’m about to say really rankles some people because it is Jesus-as-really-inspiring-dude, not as God). When I read the things Jesus said and the way he responded to people, I do think, that is the ultimate way to be. Like really - you love your friends? Big deal. Love your enemies. Or, when a soldier makes you walk a mile, walk the next mile of your own accord. I do think, I want to be like Jesus.
Although Jesus was crucified, so I can’t say the outcome is always desirable...
Bolded is interesting. I never would have categorized this part of Jesus as really-inspiring-dude. I mean, if we aren't supposed to try to be like Jesus in this way, I don't get xianity. At all.
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1 hour ago, Quill said:
Just to clear this up a little, I think your mention of the oxytocin receptor is interesting. I do not think I am totoally incapable of feeling loved and I am quite empathic with respect to other people; I can cry my eyes out for people here on this board whom I have never met IRL. But I don’t know if that means I would also feel loved by someone else. In other words, if someone on here is broken hearted because her dog died, I’m very empathic about that; I identify with that hurt and am so sad the person is suffering that. But I don’t usually, maybe never, think, “oh, all these people love me and I matter so much.” I don’t feel that way in a virtual community and I don’t IRL.
My homeschooling adventure will be coming to a close within a year at most and when I think of not being part of my real-life homeschool community, it makes me sad. I want to remain part of those people’s lives, I love them. But I don’t feel like they will miss me. I guess I think they will remember me fondly, but not that they will think, “I loved Danielle and I miss her.”
So I don’t know if that speaks to a literal defect in my genetic code, a lower-than-average love hormone receptor, or as an outcome of negative aspects of my upbringing or a damaged place in me spiritually. But it would be nice to find a way to correct it some or maybe fully, if that can be done, because I do think it has a negative impact on my life.
I am like this also and always have been, for as long as I can remember. Like I said, I am an empath, so I don't think this really has anything to do with feelings or emotions. But the only people who I KNOW without a doubt love me, specifically me, and I matter to them and they would miss me are my children - when they're babies - and my dog. And even then, the reality is I'm replaceable so they'd get over it. DH comes close, but not quite. Parents? Nope. Siblings? No, not really - if I were to die they'd be sorry in a lost-potential way, not really personally. Certainly my friends don't.
It is something I wish were different, but I can't spend any more energy worrying about it than I already have. Let me know if you figure it out.
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4 hours ago, Quill said:
. I have always admired the serene people who radiate peace and who are so unflappable. But they also (well, anecdotally, in my experience) are people who gush everyday how thankful they are that God rescued them and that God loves them utterly and would give up His Son for them. I just don’t feel that. I wish I could believe that I am preciously, incredibly, pricelessly valuable just because I exist, and I do think I would feel much more at peace if I did, but I currently don’t. So I don’t know how or if it is possible for me to really have that serenity if I remain unconvinced that I am loved just exactly as I am.
Here we go. Hit submit.
Well, here I go. I don't believe those people are for real. I think they're delusional. I think they're in la-la-land and have purposely put blinders on because anything other than the constant "I'm so thankful" mantra is unbearable. I understand that they need that for themselves just like I need my beliefs for myself, but I don't admire it. It isn't real.
ETA: And I am an extreme empath, so this has nothing to do with feelings vs not.
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If you have a sense that God loves you, how do you perceive that?
in The Chat Board
Posted
For sure. Unfortunately, it has also affected non-Evangelical circles (I don't attend an Evangelical church). I find it extremely frustrating.