Izzy
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Posts posted by Izzy
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There are Athiest pro-life groups. I just wanted to debunk whatever theories PP was going for.
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Anyone else see this today?
Way to go, Atlanta!!
:party:
On a side note, I was searching the forums yesterday for quantum physics and found some really heated threads about creationism versus science. I don't get it. Science is science. It's not up for debate.
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MIL and FIL are hardcore Republicans, but not at all religious. They wouldn't vote for Hilary for the same reason they wouldn't vote for Obama, or Kerry, or Al Gore, etc. Because they're Democrats.
I can completely respect that. :D
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But those people aren't "true believers". That's the out. I don't get it either but there's always an ambiguous answer for everything. That ambiguity is what makes it so easy to turn religion into whatever you want it to be and so hard for so many to let go of religion. The answers to tough questions are usually have faith, we don't fully understand god but god is always right, you're reading that out of context, we are unworthy humans deserving of hell so have no right to question god, true Christians vs. professing Christians, and if all else fails...go find a bible study. There are no real answers.
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Well, if we concede the assumption that morality comes from the Bible, I would claim Amoral. The biblical, "moral", code simply doesn't factor in, in that case. IMmoral suggests I'm living in conflict with the code, which I don't think is possible for an ethical person. (I'm obviously speaking to the ones having to do with the treatment of fellow humans, not the belief ones) I don't lie, cheat, steal, kill, or covet. I honor ALL people (sometimes by stepping away from them when their conduct and psychology is questionable).
Of course, as an ethical person, I think the Bible doesn't go far enough, and in many cases falls flat, in the ethical treatment of people, so... Yeah, I've had this conversation with a conservative Christian friend before.
Eta: and, yes, I know that ethics and morality both tread the same path. Morality seems to have more of a direct religious connotation, though, at least in American culture... Maybe it's simply been usurped?
Agreed.
Sort of random but this made me think of free will and whether or not we actually have it. I've seen this discussed on Dawkin's site and I don't fully understand it yet. Some people believe we don't actually have free will and we just think we do. It's really interesting.
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Born and raised in Michigan and it's pretty yucky at times too. Especially with a wingnut running the state. Hey, you cannot use scientific names for women's genitalia here. :glare:
I had a good friend move away from west Michigan because there were, "Too many Hispanics and not enough churches" and we've never quite been able to get our friendship past that idiotic statement.
And then we moved up north and the milita is seriously here. :laugh:
I don't read the Xtian threads here. It hurts to read people deliberately not think. And not all the threads are like that but I've seen far too many, "Just take it on faith!" responses to last a lifetime.
The praying thing makes me laugh too, KK. As my DH once replied, "Well, thank you so much for doing nothing for X. I was really worried you'd make sure he had enough to eat and a warm place to sleep." :confused1:
My DH and kids are Hispanic so "too many Hispanics and not enough churches" would make me ballistic. Ugh the ignorance!
I don't read the religious threads either. I did join the Progressive Christianity one which was extremeley helpful in letting go of religion. I also like the new Alternative Spirituality one. I'll be lurking on that one. I already told them though. :p
I'm struggling with my 7 yo possibly having dyslexia and the decisions I have to make. How nice it would be to pray and have faith it will all work out. How liberating it is to trust my judgment and not have to pray about every. single. thing waiting for god's answer. I got this. :D
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I never saw this scale before. It puts me at defacto atheist but it is funny I would consider myself like Dawkin mentioned maybe a 6.9. I am not a 7 but 6 doesn't seem strong enough either. I label myself a secular humanist because that does a decent job of describing how I view things.
I started attending a UU church recently. I originally went for the children's program. I wanted my kids to learn about all different religions in a non biased way especially since they were exposed to a lot of religion. I attend the services and I like it more than I thought I would. I enjoy the discussions on humanitarian issues and how everyone is accepted including secular humanists of which there are many there. I really like the people that go there. I wanted the community aspect of church but not the belief in a deity and I get that there.
I was raised a Catholic but was pretty much always at least a pure agnostic. I was never into the church or classes and was pretty much forced to go. I would often pretend to be asleep as I got older to get out of going. I became an atheist as a teenager. Part of what kept me in believing in the possibility was the threat of hell and at that age I examined my beliefs and met an atheist that was out and had lots of discussions. I never wavered from it once I became one. I'm very hesitant to tell people though. Atheists is the group that has the least trust from people. I had people tell us we are going to hell. I won't lie but I don't really tell everyone either.
I don't talk to my kids about my beliefs much yet. I don't feel they are old enough and have the critical thinking or cognitive to really grapple it at their ages yet. I just have simple conversations and don't force them into my views. As they get older I will have deeper talks about it. I hope they have similar beliefs but I don't want to force them into it. I want them to have knowledge of religion from a general and informational perspective.
Once I got over the hell issue my de-conversion was smooth sailing. But that was no easy feat to get over. It's the threat that keeps us believing even when we don't. :(
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Hmm... well I really wouldn't call Canada or the UK atheist. Quite the contrary. The majority of people in both countries identify as Christian of one stripe or another.
What our countries ARE, though, is publically secular. There is a huge difference between atheist and secular. The secular public sphere of Canada does not deny the existence of gods (as atheism does). Rather, the secular public sphere of Canada has no comment on gods. Period.
As Laura said -- religion is treated as a private matter, between the individual and the gods of his/her choice.
I should have worded that differently. I meant countries with the highest percentage of athiests versus countries with highest percentage of religious people.
I remember the outrage when Obama was elected because he was supposedly Muslim. I felt like to only person saying so what? Why should we care if our president is Muslim? We have no business knowing our president's religious affiliation and he or she has no business sharing it.
I hope Hillary does decide to run for president.
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Kinda like the whole "I'll pray for you" sentiment. *sigh* I seem harsh today! What I mean is that, while I appreciate someone's thinking of me and my situation or anyone's situation, really, a prayer isn't doing anything but making the prayer feel a little better about...not having to do anything.
Pray for those affected by Hurricane Sandy? *snort* Go donate blood, donate blankets and food, go to NJ and NY and help on the ground, send money directly to people affected....
Praying for those affected by the shooting in Connecticut? You'd do more if you took the time to help someone with a mental illness, donated to the Red Cross, donated blood (again), lobby for security systems in schools...
I think I may need a nap. It's snowing and cold and my parents just cancelled on DS7 and so now I'm a tad bit cranky.
I'm in Texas so have no clue what snow is. It's 77 degrees here. ;) Grandma and Grandpa are taking the kids tomorrow. I'm declaring a cleaning day!
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One never knows... LOL.
I'd like to think that women are pretty equal these days, except for a) when I run across religious people trying to justify what amounts to abuse and/or oppression because their holy book said it's the way it should go down, B) abortion, though many years legal, is still debatable today, and c) I still hear people say that even though Hillary made a fantastic Secretary of State, they won't vote her as President because a woman can't do that job. Yep. I've heard that last one said quite a few times while out in public the last couple of weeks. I think in some areas of the country, in some professions, in some circles it's trendy to make certain that women be equal. I think that some people genuinely get it. Whatever the reason, the entire country clearly isn't all on the same page.
Yeah, I meant outside of the religious circles. Could it be that the same people who wouldn't vote for Hillary because she's a women are religious so wouldn't vote for her regardless?
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That part of Christian teaching never made sense to me. An entire continent of people are starving because someone ate an apple that they weren't supposed to?? It has nothing to do with over-farming, shifts in ecology and climate, and overpopulation? Good grief. The detentions I used to get in Catholic school because I *dared* to ask these questions...
It's kind of a lazy way out too. God is more powerful than those issues so why try to make a difference? God will take care of it. It's our job to have as many kids as possible and god will worry about the environmental issues...that sort of thought process. Truth is, if we were all to put more faith into ourselves we could change the world for the better. We have the power in us. Pretty cool if you think about it.
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I think it would be hard for me (this is my personal opinion, you see) to encourage a daughter of mine to seek equality and own her sex in our political climate. (This is all without saying too much. I honestly think it's already a little risky on this forum just having this thread active.) Given that our politics in this country can be and are heavily influenced by certain religious groups, I mean.
It's hard to say outright, kwim?
I'll say that I teach my boys to be responsible. I teach them that they're EQUAL in that responsibility. I teach them that a woman's body is her own, and her decisions are her own. See where I'm going?
You know, I don't think it's risky having this group. I don't think a Christian would be tempted to open this thread. I could be wrong though.
I don't have girls (4 boys) but I can see how it would be hard to raise a girl in the current homeschooling climate. I might be naive but aren't women otherwise pretty equal these days? I'm asking that as a genuine question as I really don't know the answer for sure. I'm not being snarky. :D
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I think most people take comfort in believing there is a plan, a reason bad things happen to good people etc.
That was one of the toughest issues for me as a Christian. Bad things happened to people because of original sin and God's will. But if you get enough people praying you can change God's will. I'm so much more comforted just knowing bad things just happen because that's life. I also had a problem with a plan that meant 1/5 of the world's population was spending an eternity in hell. Maybe I'm different but that never comforted me. I remember telling my mom I didn't want to go to heaven because it meant so many were going to hell. It depressed me.
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I used to think I was THE world's worst Christian because I couldn't bring myself to submit to DH, use Christian curriculum, look for my life answers in the bible, or even teach my kids the bible. My oldest is 13 and doesn't even know about hell except for what he's heard elsewhere. We even stopped going to church after we had kids. All of this time I thought I was being bad but really I was just listening to my gut instincts. Now I'm just thankful I listened those red flags even though I considered myself a Christian. They didn't experience the brainwashing I did. I'm amazed at how ironic it all is. The whole time I thought I was being immoral I was actually doing the right thing by listening to myself!
I love the threads about one person trying to interpret the bible to make some life decision. Really? We have more than enough reason and instinct to lead our lives.
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saw a quote on fb yesterday - a guy said that when he tells people he doesnt believe in god, they ask him what keeps him from raping and murdering. He said that he rapes and murders exactly as much as he wants to - which is not at all.
Its weird that people think belief in a diety is the only thing that keeps them from doing awful things, and then when believers DO awful things, they just say, oh, we are humans and we arent perfect but god will forgive us. Um, but that whole belief thing didnt STOP you from doing anything bad, then, it just makes you feel better about it?
I saw that quote too. Even as a Christian I never understood the reasoning behind people believing athiests were immoral. It amazes me that people truly believe this and honestly don't get why it offends people. Really??
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Religion barely shows up in UK politics. When Tony Blair - protestant later converted RC - was in power, his press secretary famously parried questions about religion with the phrase 'We don't do God.' The casual calling on a god that US politicians go in for would be considered.... overly intimate? Religion in the UK is normally a private matter, and it seems pushy when politicians bring it up.
Laura
Americans could learn a few things from Canadians. Politics are a mess here and religion is such a big reason why.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the most peaceful countries are the most Athiest and the most violent ones are the most religious.
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See, that just supports my agnostic tendency, though "equiprobable" is a problematic term for me since I'm not sure how one would compile a probability statistic. And I'm unclear as to whether this would include a superior power that is not personified... So the very question of how to approach the question falls into the "unquantifiable, can't go forward" box for me.
I am impartial. The existence or non-existence doesn't factor into my ethics, conduct or thought - other than when it is a topic of discussion, obviously - at all.
That chart puts me leaning towards theist but that's not how I'd define myself. My beliefs are still evolving since I'm such a new de-convert but I don't think god is knowable or interacts with us. Maybe if there is a god this god spun everything in action and that's it? And this god may not be a god in the same way we think of gods. Just a higher power. IDK but I don't feel the need to know. It makes my head hurt just thinking about it. :p I also believe we can tap into ourselves on a much deeper level like meditation. Maybe that will be scientifically proven someday? I guess I'm sort of an Athiest/Agnostic mutt. lol
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I like the idea that everything is connected and has an "energy" and that we can affect the world in a positive or negative way by our thoughts and actions. I feel that there is a lot of truth to this kind of teaching, and I can see it at work in my life, but I don't know how far to take it.
I wanted to chime in because I believe this too. Not in a supernatural way, more like we are all somehow connected and we can tap into that. I think Buddhism is on to something - minus the gods. :D
I wouldn't classify myself as spiritual anymore but this is a great thread. Very much needed. I'll be lurking. :)
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This is true. No one ever asks unless they know you pretty well and you are having an intimate conversation where beliefs might arise. In a business situation it is one of those strictly verbotten unwritten rules. People also do not ask about your familial status or politics either.
What is interesting is that Canadians rank among the very highest nations in interpersonal skills. It really is a very different culture in the workplace, that is for sure. On the one hand, everything is very friendly, but to a Canadian, "friendly" doesn't mean "now I've got to find out everything about you." It means, "I will respect you as you present yourself to me." So, unless you volunteer personal information, they just won't pry, but they expect that you won't pry either. Usually, it isn't a problem because Canadians love to talk. So, they'll tell you all kinds of personal stuff -- just not usually things like religion, politics (no, never!) or intimate family things unless, as I said, you know them very, very well and something of that nature arises in the conversation. Although, I do think you almost have to be sleeping with the Canadian to get him to discuss politics with you, and even then, I'm not so sure. :laugh:
I've heard from friends in Canada and Australia that religion is very different. I wonder if it's because of America's tendency to overdo things? Does religion show up in politics in Canada? That's a big problem here.
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I usually just say I'm an atheist because it's shuts people down pretty fast. No, I don't need to hear your, "good news" and everytime you ask me that i think you're going to bust out with, "I'm pregnant!" or "I got a new job!"
If you want to get detailed about it, I'm pretty sure there is no god. But if there is a god, it's a freaking WOMAN. So there's my bit o'paganism.
I will say that the only time I've ever felt "something," I was standing in circle during a very feminist pagan ritual. I don't know what that was but if it was Goddess, I have the distinct feeling she isn't going to be annoyed with me for not worshipping her all my life. I like to think She might be waiting for me at the gate, swat my behind on the way in and chuckle, "Skeptic!" under Her breath.
Don't ask me to reconcile that with my love for tarot and other hoo-hah stuff. :laugh:
See, I can't really say I'm Athiest because I believe there's most likely a higher power that we don't know. I guess that makes me Agnostic but saying you're Agnostic opens up too much discussion because it sounds like you're looking for god which I'm not. I can see how Secular Humanist could really open up a can of worms.
DS13 starts spring tackle football in March and it's a very Christian organization. I'm completely fine with that and grateful they are open to all faiths and non faith. That's rare around here. But there will be lots of questions and god talk and I'm thinking through what I will say. I'm thinking not religious is perfect.
lol at your comment about tarot cards. I'm really interested in all things psychic and magic. I always have been but was told they were from the debil. :D
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Yes. We use that to describe ourselves much more than "atheist".
I don't actually use Athiest because I'm not sure there isn't a god, just sure I don't know and I don't feel the need to know. There is a Secular Humanist magazine I'd like to subscribe too.The articles would be good topics to discuss with ds13.
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Does anyone identify as secular humanist?
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?page=what§ion=main
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We are using K12's Human Odyssey for history. It's for 7th grade but I'm reading it aloud and modifying writing assignments for ds9. I picked up a used copy from Amazon and do not go through K12 for any of the extra material. I have written review questions and outlines, project ideas, etc. for each chapter (well, through chapter 35 so far).
I really like this curriculum so far. I like the text with lots of pictures, etc. It's engaging. And some chapters have literature selections as an extra. I teach all religions from a mythological point of view. This year we're in ancients so I'm really emphasizing OT and classic Greek/Roman/Norse/Hindu mythology. I realized that I over corrected when it came to Old Testament stories and didn't teach them at all. I think it's important that my boys know the big stories because they are referenced not only in literature but also popular culture: Moses, burning bushes (recently in a Supernatural episode!), Noah, the plagues of Egypt, etc.
I supplement with my own literature selections roughly following the time periods, when possible. I also use Khan Academy to teach art history for that time period. We aren't a project-y family. My boys aren't huge fans of crafts. And, if I'm honest with myself, I can't stand the mess. There I said it. I try to be "that" mom, but find I'm clenching my teeth and smiling the entire time. As my boys have gotten older, I'm relieved by less projects and mess.
Anyone interested in using K12's HO, let me know and I will send you my little study guide. There are typos. It's not perfect as it was intended to be used just for my little family and my friend who was using it as well, but I'd be happy to share. PM me.
It looks like k-12's HO gets a lot of good reviews. I'm going to look into what grade K-12 uses it in. I wouldn't mind have ds13 use it through K12.
SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers
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Conversion FAIL. lol