Izzy
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Posts posted by Izzy
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Thanks, KK. I rarely posts because there is usually someone else posting who expresses my thoughts better than I do.
First, I would like to make a comment about the Texas Board of Education. There once was a thread asking if any of us homeschool for political reasons. I thought about saying, "YES! I do because I'm from Texas. We have politicians who have no business in education deciding what will and will not be taught to our children." Thanks to us, the rest of the country has text books that say that fossils are "very old" rather than give an actual date that scientists have proven. And I *think* "we" have decided that Thomas Jefferson isn't so important. This may be on the Revisionists, but I just can't bring myself to watch it.
Also, I think I understand where Rosie is coming from. Though I come from a Christian family, I never felt that comfort - that "blessed assurance" - that I thought I was suppose to have from attending church and believing in a god. I felt more scared. But I long for that feeling of fellowship, customs, and rituals. At Christmas, when I see a manager set up, I think of how wonderful it must be to hold this belief in magic(?). But I suppose that it would be just the same as if I believed that Hogwarts existed. Anyway, I guess now I am trying to find some magical thinking in my own family's customs and traditions.
Okay. I'm going to stop my ramblings here, but it has been cathartic!
Aack! I'm from TX too. Are we to blame for the textbooks? My brother had mentioned something about TX trying to take Thomas Jefferson out, presumably because of his beliefs. It would also explain why I made straight A's and don't know a thing about science.
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A few interesting articles I ran across today.
Title says it all. One in four thinks the Super Bowl is decided by god, eh? :blink:
Very cool science stuff! Graphics, videos, some apps and games.
Also. The pastor who made the sh*tty comment about tipping and ended up with her comment going viral? Called up the Applebees after she was outed on the internet and demanded that the waitress who uploaded the pic to Reddit be fired. She's been fired. The pastor was upset because she's now embarrassed and it has reflected badly on her to the rest of her...15 member church. I'll be chewing on that for a bit while I enjoy my hot tea and broccoli pasta salad snack.
Just another example of hate in the name of god. It's kind of funny that she literally chalked up her not tipping to god. :p
Thanks for the science link...going to look at it closer in a little while.
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Because if you understand a thing to be "very dangerous" by its very nature, compassion would compel you to protect the innocent. If everybody suffers, it's not worth keeping quiet about.
What I don't get is debt is talked more about in the bible than homosexuality. So why not discriminate against people with debt? That would wipe out the majority of believers. lol They pick and choose who they want to hate. It's sickening. :/
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yeah, i guess i grew up with a religion that didnt feel oppressive to athiests, I have no interest in dismantling religion, and i never had a deconversion from anything. i see plenty of non-church organizations doing things, and i also belong to a UU church, totally accepting of secular humanists . . . with the understanding that we are also totally accepting of christians. we each take our own path and respect that. i guess even among athiests i dont fit in
I don't think there is such a thing as fitting in with athiests. Athiesm isn't a belief system so there are no requirements of how to be the right type of athiest. Hell, I define myself as Agnostic. Athiests are athiests because they are free thinking which means every single person will be different. One of the books I'm reading said trying to organize Athiests is like trying to herd cats. The very nature of an Athiest is they think for themselves so there is a huge variety of personalities. I wouldn't want it any other way. :)
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I've been listening to a Teaching Company class on Mindfulness this week. It's a very thorough secular introduction to the practice, although the professor occasionally mentions Buddhism or Christianity he doesn't assume his audience is any particular religion. Here's a link:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=1933
I got it from the Harris County Public Library, so you might be able to get it from yours too.
Thanks! :)
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This is our local branch. You can see what all is going on and check for branches near you. I think you can also start your own branch also.
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Yes, Austin is very cool and diverse. We have T-shirts and bumper stickers that say Keep Austin Weird. :D
As for religion, I'm not interested in wiping it all away. Same with superstition. If someone thinks lighting a candle will bring good luck then I really don't see the harm. Now, if you tell someone else they have to do that to get into heaven or avoid hell, then I have a problem. I think any religion that produces fear or intolerance is damaging and might as well be cults. Those religions are not okay and they infringe on peoples' rights, including the children that are indoctrinated into them.
You'll hear me talk about hell a lot because that's what stuck with me as a child. Hell was a place of torment with fire and weeping & knashing of teeth. Even though it wasn't brought up a lot was still terrified of it. I honestly think if you're teaching your child that hell exists and that there is an all knowing god who knows everything you're thinking, then that's child abuse.
I would like to study Buddhism and meditation so that might put me at a little spiritual. Although I don't think it is spiritual. I do think we can connect to ourselves and other people on a deeper level but that there is probably a scientific reason for that we haven't figured out yet. I remember being told that crystals were new age and from the debil. But now we have amber teething necklaces and know that some stones really do have healing properties. Same for nature. Much of our modern medicine is derived from healing plants.
I'm going to link up The Center for Inquiry. We have a very active group here which helps people form a community of non believers. :D
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You're welcome. :) It's amazing how similar deconverts' stories can be. I found a lot of comfort in knowing I wasn't alone.
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Jennifer, I am an ex Xtian too. Your post reminded me of the 5 stages of deconversion. I went through all 5 stages over 4 years. I still go back and forth between acceptance and anger. I didn't want to link because this comes from a forum for ex-christians. Beware - it's long!
Phase 0 - The Pre-deconversion
This step really isn't a step at all. This is just the generalized time before deconversion. In this phase you are 100% committed to your belief, you call yourself a christian, you think of yourself as a christian, you know all the ways to answer all the questions about your faith and the idea of not being a christian has yet to enter your mind. This phase could be brief or quite lengthy, but it is characterized by the complete lack of questioning about your faith. You may be confronted about your faith by others, and you respond with all the "right" answers, but you yourself have yet to put your belief under the microscope. Some can go their whole lives without ever leaving this state, but we are talking about deconversion here, so on to phase 1.
Phase 1 - Curiosity killed the cat.
This is what I would consider to be the real first step toward deconversion; The point at which you first examine your own faith. Now, this can come about in many ways. For some, their zeal for discovering more about their religion leads them to examine themselves, ironically enough this quest for a greater faith leads them towards a lesser (or non-existent) one. For others, this questioning process is brought about by the inquiries of others. One particularly poignant question becomes the seed from which reason sprouts. Others still may find that in their increased knowledge of the natural world, they find things in conflict or even contradiction to their previously held beliefs. Sadly, many... far too many come to this step through tragedy or hardship, when the question isn't about religion per se, but about the nature of god itself. "How could god let this happen?" or "Why would he let this happen to us" or such questions simply cannot be answered to any satisfaction.
There are many other ways this questioning process can be kicked off, but the point is that at some point the walls around your faith that protected it from introspection yield. I have a suspicion that most believers encounter this phase of deconversion at least once in their life of faith, though most find cause to ignore or suppress it. The bible itself warns against such questioning. The entire apologetics industry is designed to push phase 1ers back to phase 0, as demonstrated by the fact that anyone well into their deconversion (not to mention anyone of other faiths or non-faiths) find apologetic arguments laughable or downright insulting.
Phase 2 - The quest for answers.
Ok, so now you've got a mind full of questions... or maybe just one or two particularly persistent ones. Who has the answers? For most, the first place we look is also the least helpful, religion. We scour the bible, meet with our pastor, call up our strong christian brothers and sisters. We peruse christian message boards and we read christian literature. So careful are we to avoid any secular literature for fear that it may seek to lead us away from our faith. The answer-seekers are convinced that they are still trying to save their faith, to fortify it with godly answers. This phase is characterized by one emotion; Fear.
It is a particular brand of fear, I can liken it most to the feeling of being lost. Like you were hiking in the woods and lose your bearings, all of the sudden you are struck by this sense of "I don't know where I am." Luckily for you, you are surrounded by others and can simply ask for directions. Unfortunately the answers you get are thoroughly unsatisfying. In fact, sometimes your questions aren't answered at all, but rather turned around onto you as some sort of flaw in your faith. You are told to consult the tour guide, but he just tells you to stay with the flock, and go read your guidebook. You check your guidebook but it barely seems to make sense anymore; "What the hell are these guys talking about palm trees for? I'm in the rocky mountains!!"
In your search to find slightly more satisfying answers, you find a secular source. It may be by accident, a non-religious friend or relative, or it may be on purpose under the guise of curiosity, such as stumbling onto exchristians.net, but none-the-less you find someone, somewhere, who will actually answer your questions. However, far from sealing this one tiny leak in your otherwise unsinkable faith-tanic, you are spurred on to new questions, until you inevitably find yourself at "the" question, and the answer isn't 42.
Phase 3 - Do I believe?
Most people, I find, don't actually ask this question until their deconversion is at such a point that the answer is "No". We skirt around the question, avoiding it for fear of the consequences. This can be a very desperate time for some, especially if your whole life is built on a christian foundation. It isn't just a question of changing perspective, but of giving up everything you've ever known. Desperately, you seek the counsel of your friends and mentors, but to your surprise your hints at a failing faith are met with hostility, condemnation, and rebuke. I suspect that this is because your open questioning of faith sheds light on their private questioning of faith and their aggression is really a defensive maneuver. Either way, this can be a very lonely time, one at which you fell isolated from your normal support group, if not physically isolated, than emotionally isolated. Some are lucky to find others of fading faith for support, others unfortunately face this transition alone.
In some ways, and for some people however, this can be a very liberating process. If you find yourself in a religiously neutral environment, the pursuit of knowledge of the world and yourself can be exciting, filled with new discoveries every day. You can throw off the shackles that bound you to your faith and are free to explore all sorts of new things you may have never heard of before.
Nevertheless, at some point the question is asked, by yourself or by someone else; "Do you believe?" and you answer, "No."
Phase 4 Anger
"Congratulations! You are now a non-believer. Here is your hat and t-shirt. We're having a bake-sale this Saturday at the park and I'll go ahead and sign you up for our newsletter...." Well, not exactly. When you converted, there was all sorts of pomp and circumstance. People were showering you with attention, everyone was your friend and you were instantly tied into a new social group. Your moment of deconversion, the moment you first answer that question "No", by contrast is wholly unsatisfying. The sky doesn't part, lightning doesn't strike your house, demons don't stab you in the ass with pitchforks... In a way you almost wish you did get stabbed in the ass, at least there would be something that happened to signify your deconversion, some sort of moment in time that you could point to as the beginning of a new life. We could all sit around and talk about our deconversion moment: I'd ask, "So when did you get stabbed in the ass with a pitchfork?" and you'd reply, "Oh, it was back in aught-six, I was visiting my parents for christmas. Do you want to see the scar?" at which point I'd reply, "No thanks.... You should really pull up your pants now, this is awkward."
Unfortunately for all of us, there is no signifying moment of deconversion. We still live the same life we did, but now we are constantly bombarded with reminders of our old faith. We can feel very rejected, very hurt, insulted, or degraded. You end up feeling embarrassed by your former belief, and you feel so dumb for falling victim to it for so long. You feel betrayed by the people you trusted so much to tell you the truth of the world. Above all things, you begin to feel angry.
And you should feel angry! You were lied to, you were kept in fear. You expected love from these people but they were just using you. When you needed support while giving up your faith, they told you it was your fault! How dare they! These people called themselves your friends but once you had a little ideological difference they abandoned you, they judged you, they completely ignored you. Oh the hypocrisy! They stole your life from you, you'll never get those years back. All the embarrassing things I've said to non-religious co-workers and friends. How could I have been such a fool! etc...
For many, many of us, the anger phase lasts a long time. It manifests itself in all sorts of ways, sometimes overtly, sometimes passively. Don't get me wrong, it's good to feel anger, it is good to get these feelings out, but at some point the anger must give way. The anger feels so good, it is so emotionally satisfying that we sometimes want to hang onto it too long, but we must give it up to move on to phase 5.
Phase 5 Acceptance
The ultimate tragedy of being a deconvert is the fact that even though we stop believing, we won't let it go. Imagine your old faith like a car. For a while you loved it, you took care of it and drove it all the time but one day it breaks down. You get out and try to fix it, but you can't. You ask a mechanic but he just asks for 10% of your income and tells you to fix it yourself. You consult the user manual but it was written for a horse-and-buggy. In desperation, you start kicking the car, swearing at it, throwing rocks at it. You hate it, and somehow punishing it for leaving you stranded makes you feel some amount of relief. You push it home, kicking it and swearing at it the whole way. You get up in the middle of the night just to take a leak in the gas tank. Then you start acting weird.
You start pushing the car wherever you go, breaking out the windows and scratching the paint. You get a new car and tow the old one behind it just so it's available for abuse whenever you need. You may even attack other peoples cars of the same make and model; "Your car's garbage! Throw it away, you can't depend on it!" Admit it, you actually enjoy being mad at your car.
For a time that anger is very therapeutic, it helps you cope with the loss of a major component of your life. Now however, your life is just as consumed with this car as it was when it worked, and you don't even get to drive it anymore! To truly be past it, you need to go ahead and drop it off at the dump. You don't need to rush yourself, have fun tearing the hunk-o-junk up, but wouldn't it be nice to live a life that didn't revolve around the old christ-moble anymore?
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"Rowthorn has developed a model that shows that the genetic components that predispose a person toward religion are currently “hitchhiking†on the back of the religious cultural practice of high fertility rates. Even if some of the people who are born to religious parents defect from religion and become secular, the religious genes they carry (which encompass other personality traits, such as obedience and conservativism) will still spread throughout society, according to the model’s numerical simulations."
This quote is from a page I found on the religion gene. It sounds like there's a biological reason having "armies for god" works so well to spread religion. This gene can be passed to the children but even if it's not passed to that child it can still be passed to the next generation. Generally speaking, people who don't carry the gene take a more Humanistic approach and not have as many kids or if they do they are more likely to adopt. So Secular Humanism/Athiesm isn't being spread but that's not what a Humanist is trying to do anyways. OTOH a quiver full or a religious large family does their part in spreading the gene.
This could explain why the non religious groups are growing as family size is shrinking.
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Yes, there are many hateful and nasty folks. Some are religious, Christian and otherwise. Some are not.
This is the minister who married my brother and his husband:
This minister is far from alone in the church. He worked for civil rights for the poor and for minorities with Jeremiah Wright. Progressive, non-bigoted people are both members and leaders in various protestant denominations, the Catholic church (anyone want to call a social justice nun a bigot?) and in wholly other religious traditions. The nasty people grab the headlines. But let's not forget the many positive and justice minded parts of religion in American history- abolitionists (both violent and not. John Brown was most certainly a religious man), the first co-ed colleges, the first integrated colleges and the epicenter of the civil rights movement.
When I was growing up, my parents raised a mixed race family, taught non-discrimination and were huge peace activists. They were also devoutly Catholic (and were active in trying to change the Catholic Church's stances on a number of issues.) And when their son turned out to be both gay and transsexual, they embraced him, his husband and their grandkids without an iota of hated, bigotry or fear. I don't think calling religious people names is any better than the names that SOME religious people call those that disagree with them.
They would be Progressive Christians. I have zero problem with liberal Christians and was part of the social group. The problem is those progressive Christians get as much hate as athiests, if not more. Christians view them as a cult and label them as not Christian. The Progressive Christian group had problems because of that. Members of the group were getting hate mail and the group was basically told to pack it up and call themselves spiritual but not religious.
I just want to make it clear that when I say religious I don't mean tolerant religions. Not in the least. From what I've researched so far, there is a link connecting fear to the more intolerant religions. I posted an interesting link a few pages back and I'll find it and post it again. I wouldn't say anyone is name calling. I'm actually very interested in learning more about this connection.
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Evolution of microbiology (the neurology you're talking about here), doesn't happen in a generation or two, not with primates.
It's a cultural thing. Most young people equate religion with homophobia and absurd right wing conservationism (search "homophobic" for the direct quote). It's one thing to grow up in a religious community where "everyone knows it's true," and quite another to have access to what the real "everyone" knows around the world at the tip of one's fingers.
So the discrepancy between the younger and older generations isn't physical, but cultural. I imagine it's a lot more difficult to indoctrinate the youngest generation because they will always have access to the real world via the Internet. It looks like either religion is on it's way out or we're going to start seeing more cult like religion. Maybe more fear based religion as fear keeps you from doubting your faith.
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But... Portland is supposed to have really nice weather year-round! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland,_Oregon#Climate
Never really gets cold enough to snow, doesn't even get much snow. I can get behind that!
Do not tell my kids but I hate snow. Shhh! They are so happy when it does snow and I'm so happy that it only snows every 2 or 3 years. :D
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I was considering moving to NC, but my son's needed therapies turned me off of that. And now the above posts confirm that NC may not be the best place.
Now where do i go?!
I live in Austin and have not had problems here. There are mostly Christian homeschool groups and co-ops but there is a large inclusive group and plenty of secular activities. As far as the non homeschooling world, people don't talk about religion. It's just not an issue. But Austin is a very liberal city in a very conservative state.
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I know the northwest or northeast would be the best match but the climate is a turn-off for me. I HATE being cold. I use that
word with great precision. :) lol
I despise being cold! I can happily hang out in 100 degree weather but i freeze to death once it's in the 60's. Thank goodness I live in Texas!
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Diane Benscoter talks about how cults rewire the brain. Richard Dawkins hypothesizes the evolutionary instinctual behavior for children to believe adults makes belief in religion easy to pass from one generation to the next. The evolutionary advantage of instinctual belief can be seen in emotional bonding (built in love/trust between infant and child), as well as safety. This promotes propagation of the species.
I've been reading the posts today but haven't had much time to post or check out all of the links yet. One of the links I looked had a study that showed the younger generations are mostly not religious and the oldest generations more religious. I wonder if the younger generations' brains are rewiring because religion doesn't serve the purpose it once did?
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I was coming from an angle of different personality types and people's comfort level with being direct and outspoken.
Another point is the bigoted person isn't going to change. Well, at least not anytime soon. An angry Athiest will cause that person to expose just how bigoted their religion is and make others on the fence think twice about their religion and views. If it weren't for homeschooling and this forum I'd probably still be a Christian. Threads just like the BSA made me open my eyes and question my faith. I couldn't in good conscience be associated with any religion that turned out such hateful people. I started homeschooling and visiting this site 5 years ago and my I've been questioning my faith for 4 years. I don't believe that is a coincidence.
There are many questioning Christians that are feeling very hurt right now. They've come to realize something isn't right about their faith but they feel stuck. Whenever I see threads about people doubting God or religion I chime in with a little of my story and let people know they can PM me. I always get PMs.
Happy Athiests are the people that go on to change the hearts of the most religious and bigoted, I think. My point is each personality is helpful and much needed. IMO the happy athiests will go a long way in changing hearts and the angry athiests will go a long way in changing laws.
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http://m.phys.org/news/2011-01-religiosity-gene-dominate-society.html
I'm off to bed now but I found this interesting article. I definitely want to learn more.
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Maybe we can create our own boy scou... er, camper group! You know, that accepts atheists and, well, *everyone*.
Look at http://www.campfireusa.org/ There might be a chapter near you or you can even start your own. :)
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Keep me off the BSA thread?
I'm keeping busy by researching the possibility of a religious gene. I'm convinced there is a link between religion and intolerance. There has to be an evolutionary purpose?
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If people are so unhappy with the "no-gays" policy, why even mess with the boyscouts? Why not start a new scouting group? Why shouldn't the boy scouts have a right to say they believe it is a sin and they won't allow them?
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For the same reason black people fought for their rights to be equal.
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I found an inclusive group through Yahoo Groups. It's not specifically secular but is inclusive to everyone. You can also try Meetup. Good luck! :D
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Every time I visit the chat board I remember why I stay away from there in the first place. Is there such a thing as intelligence splitting in evolution? Like one section of a species splits into complete ignorance and the other section evolves their kindness and reason?
SOCIAL GROUP: Atheists, agnostics, free-thinkers, non-believers
in The Chat Board
Posted
Is there a pic?? I can't see it. I just see an empty box. :(