Obviously, I need to read The Writer's Jungle and find out more about partnership writing. I have a hard time helping DD, because I feel like I am rewriting her whole narration- which seems like it discourages her confidence. I worry that my children have too much faith in MY ability and not in their own. My parents never helped me with any assignments... and I was a really confident *cough* cocky student. I don't see that same confidence in my kids. They look to me so often- "Mom, is this okay? Mom, what do you think? How does this sound? Is this right?" Homeschooling has a distinct advantage/disadvantage in this way... Part of that comes because I'm a crazy editor by nature in my own writing, and though I try to keep it encouraging with my kids, I think they sometimes feel like it's never good enough. So then I take the opposite approach and just point out positives, knowing that as they mature they will recognize those things that need improvement on their own, like I did, and learn how to perfect their writing without me telling them how to do so. So how do you all find balance in helping but also letting them figure out some things without you? Do you ever feel like your kids are finding your voice but not their own?

Do they read early reader sized books? The Fly Guy books are really funny :-) Here is HOD's emerging reader booklist. Most of these can be found at your library, and they transition gently from early readers into beginning chapter books. All good selections!

So yesterday we were reviewing place value, and he wanted to go up to trillions and talk about decimal places (sister is learning decimals right now). I humored him and he actually stayed relatively engaged for 20 minutes! I'm feeling hopeful! Maybe give LOF another shot?

No way, I do not think AAR would be a good fit for you. AAR is best (IMO) for a reader who needs lots of repetition and practice. It's not going to spark your children's love for reading... just do a search for "fluency sheets" and you'll see what I mean :-). Like the previous poster mentioned, if they need to learn phonetic rules to gain confidence, then AAS is your better bet. It teaches all of the same rules as AAR, for much cheaper, and you already have it. My son took a while to get into reading chapter books. He still doesn't love to read fiction, but it was never because his reading ability wasn't there. He just prefers nonfiction hands down. This year though (second grade) I've seen a huge jump in his reading stamina. Right now he's reading The Story of Dr. Dolittle by High Lofting and Danny Meadow Mouse by Thorton Burgess. These are both small print, longer, fictional chapter books, but they're about animals (a huge interest of his) and they're relatively funny, so he's mnoved past tolerating to actually liking his reading time. He only reads 1-2 chapters a day, and he's definitely not the book lover that his older sister was at that age, but his reading appetite is growing. Maybe finding books that they are actually interested in would make a difference. If you give us some more background on them, I'm sure we could offer some good suggestions :-).

WWE/WWS focuses on expository writing, not creative, and a natural writer probably needs supplemental writing outlets that aren't as incremental and detailed. Like another poster mentioned, you don't want to "squash" a student's natural creativity and love for writing by forcing him to go through a program that he hates. At the same time, as the child gets older, it's important to learn the stamina/drive/SKILL to write expository assignments that he has no desire to, that do not curb his writing hunger in the slightest- the majority of his college education will be such assignments. Maybe for a natural writer, working through some of the principles in WWS at an older age is actually more appropriate? Go with your gut and see where her writing takes her for now, giving that natural ability plenty of time to find itself. But I wouldn't skip it entirely and assume that a natural writer has no use for such a program. Then again, I wonder about having to reform habits and reteach skills like another poster mentioned. Either way, I don't think that a natural writer will actually really "lose" anything one way or the other, especially if you offer other outlets.

LOL, well no one voted yes. It's a tough call for me because I honestly think it would be fun. Plus, I rarely take the time for self-teaching and this would force me into it. Planning for and teaching three kiddos is enough... I want someone else to teach me :001_smile:.

I'm thinking structure as far as paragraph/thought organization. I think each of these kids obviously has a gift at storytelling and they are all natural writers. I'm not discounting that at all. What I'm saying is, as far as teaching writing, is this the output to aim for? Is this what SWB would hope her method produces? (Clearly it's not, since WWE doesn't have any sort of creative writing, or composition writing at all.) Structured writing, to me, would be topic sentences, transition sentences that bridge the ideas between one paragraph and another, strong concluding sentences (within each paragraph) and then obviously that same organization throughout the composition as a whole. I'm not saying I expect this out of a fourth grader, I'm just saying.... Is it more beneficial to teach organization first, or let the creative voice come out and worry about those things later? I don't know. Again, while many aspects of good writing are similar for both creative and expository writing, the training/prep for writing an essay versus a short story or poem is so, so different. There were many students who thrived in my creative writing classes but struggled through many of the lit classes (which are by far the majority). I think the ideal scope/sequence will be different for each kid. I'm not saying that I think my fourth grader could produce better writing than these kids... BUT, I do believe that when my fourth grader is in high school, she'll be producing incredible writing :-). I know that if we worked on it, she would be writing "better" creatively right now. But I'm not sure that's what I want. I'm not sure that's the best way to get to the end result I want. I'm enjoying this thread a lot and I'm not trying to discount the success of what other people are doing with their kids. As I said, every kid will have a unique journey into self-expression, but it definitely helps to hear about someone else's.

Also, I don't think they're calling these "essays"... just sayin :tongue_smilie:

Just signed up to take the sample 4th grade writing. The child had to choose one of the following prompts: Tell a true story about a time when you helped someone or someone helped you. (narrative) The teacher placed a snack on the desk and left. It started to move. Make up a story about what happened. (imaginative) Many people have an activity or hobby they like. Choose one of your favorite hobbies and explain it to someone who doesn’t know much about it. (expository) Here's the link to actual graded tests: http://www.ode.state.or.us/search/page/?=525 I think it's helpful to see these... but I don't know if this lines up with WTM writing instruction. The "high" rated compositions have character and aspects of good writing, but not much structure.

Having those guidelines makes this sound more realistic. Still for an advanced writer IMO, but probably doable for most (if a parent wants that much specific writing instruction early on). I like it a lot! Keep us posted on what resources you find most helpful!

That's what I was wondering- to me, essay usually means thesis And I saw that you had included essays before you work on building a thesis, so I just wasn't sure. Again, though, how short are you thinking? 5 paragraph type? I also think there's a difference between an academic essay (especially for K-12 purposes) and a creative "essay." The Best American Essays series is full of creative, nonacademic writing, more along the lines of just a "short prose piece." But prepping for these types of essays is entirely different than prepping for academic essays.

LOL, I'm definitely no math guru. But I do like learning :001_smile:. And I could never pay that much for a purse because it would undoubtedly end up decorated with my 5 year old's original sharpie art ... and I'd get mean :eek: .

You're right, it doesn't have to be bar models. But it is amazing to me how much simpler they are, and how they help a person think about the numbers in a real way. I recently posted a CWP4 problem on here and explained how I solved it with algebra, but the bar model responses made the problem seem far less abstract, and much more practical. I remember taking PreIB Chem/Physics my HS sophomore year, and I aced chem but struggled with physics. It was just difficult for me to think of the numbers in a realistic way. I know bar models obviously aren't physics, but I would love to build stronger "real world" math sense in them. It's hard to explain what I mean by that, and I can't quite find the words for it... but I know the lightbulb feeling of seeing one of those bar models drawn out and having a better understanding of the question, even though I'd gotten the right answer with algebra.

I've browsed Peril and Peace and Monks and Mystics. I liked what I read a lot... but I wanted to like them more, if that makes sense. I didn't find them quite as engaging as I'd heard they were. But I will have my kiddos read them because it's difficult to find narrative history for that time period that doesn't have an anti-Catholic slant. I'm a Catholic-appreciating-Protestant, so that's important to me :001_smile:. Plus, I'm fascinated with the mystics.

Wow, no one thinks this would be cool? I mean, yes, there are better uses for the money. But I feel like this would be really enjoyable. Plus, we move so often and rarely live in an area where I could attend something like this. I know this is one aspect of SM that I'm not strong in. I was an excellent math student but I solve everything by algorithm and algebra. Self-teaching from the different workbooks may work fine... but this is much less time/effort. Does it help that the $250 includes lunch? :D

Ah, I see. Yes, I was thinking literary analysis essay as in a typical undergrad English assignment- definitely a high school goal. I haven't listened to SWB's writing lectures (probably should). I have heard her discuss WWS specifically but we haven't used it. So what's the length you're talking here? I think that would help to make this more clear. For your fifth grader's narrative essay, for example, is there a word count goal? And what's your working definition of "essay"? If I'm understanding correctly, it seems like one year you are introducing a topic, and the next year you are polishing it? So in third grade you work with "paragraph writing," and in fourth you break that down and perfect it- topic sentences, details, etc. Is that right? Also, are these just personalized goals for your own kids? I appreciate this a lot. It helps me think about our own goals... I know the end result but I'm not quite sure how to get there.

Of course, we could have very different ideas of what a literary analysis essay is :-)

Your sequence is extremely advanced. I think you are expecting too much yearly progression. To go from writing 2-3 paragraphs in fourth to a literary analysis essay in fifth is a HUGE undertaking, for both the student and the teacher. Only an extremely gifted 5th grader would be able to write a literary analysis (and even then, it would take a ton of instruction). I think this scope would be more appropriate if it were stretched over the entire 2-12 grade period. You'd need to add a few things- literary research essay for sure- but you pretty much have it covered.

If you use SM that is :-). This workshop is coming to our area: http://the-pi-project.com/pdf/20131019_Workshop_Honolulu.pdf I feel like this is one of the most beneficial aspects of SM. Yes, bar models seem simple, but when you are so algebra/numbers engrained, it's difficult to think outside the box. I know my kiddos would benefit from this workshop. But $250 is a lot of money... that could be a GoPro :lol:.

Maybe some Saturday forumers? Either way, I think I'm going to start giving both methods a go...

I think the revision is well done! I would talk with him about revising "later" in both sentences, which I think would help it flow better. In the first "later" instance, ask him how the ideas of the previous sentence relate to the ideas in the next, if perhaps it would flow better if he tied the ideas together in one sentence, using most of the same words he already used. (Something like- "The first boats were only a quarter of the way full, but eventually they were crammed with people.") The same with the second later (and really the last three sentences). How do those ideas relate? Can we combine those short sentences? Finally, I would ask him how the last sentence sums up the passage. Does it feel like an ending? Anyway, this is all based on no knowledge of the assignment :-). But just as a narrative paragraph, I think these things would help.

As far as his instructional level, I do think he's where he needs to be even though his mathematical understanding is higher. He's such a strange student. Sometimes he just gets the answer right away. Sometimes I'm shocked by how quick he gets mental math questions- in isolation. Not every question. Not every day. Sometimes his mental processing is quicker than mine. Other times, even when I am scribing and we are talking through it, his focus is just not there and he can barely get through 5 questions, let alone the page. It's gotten to the point where we are only doing a lesson a day, stretching out longer lessons and reviews to two days- and for Singapore, that's a really small amount of work. But anything longer than 5-10 minutes and I lose him completely. We do use the white board, and I do take turns scribing for him, because the writing definitely gets in the way. But it's not just the writing. It's the mental effort as much as the physical effort. He just doesn't want to think through the problems. The funny thing is, he doesn't have a short attention span for our "content" subjects. And he loves memorization in context. When we studied U. S. History his Pre-K year, he knew all of the Revolutionary War battles, where and when they took place, even though we never did them as memory work. Then it was animals- he knows all kinds of facts about which species are endangered, critically endangered, near threatened, how many are left in the wild- all from his free reading. We finally decided to study zoology formally this year since that's all he was doing anyway. We're also doing World Geography and he can easily name many countries on a blank map, and we've barely worked on it. I know this is typical of boys (and girls) at that age, but just trying to give some background. That is where his interest ends- history, science, and geography- and only certain areas within each subject. So, although he has the ability for critical thinking, it's like he's mentally lazy and memorizing things helps him to feel smart without having to think? LOL, I don't know. He definitely won't memorize any of his math facts. Maybe if I had the time to create math questions that all involved endangered animals, he would race through arithmetic. I'm going to try the math videos, and I'm also going to try some of the other programs suggested. Perhaps he would like a different approach or at least a change of pace. But he's not an algorithm kid, and definitely enjoys mental, conceptual math more than written, which is why I really do want to continue SM. I know that eventually his stamina will increase and math won't be so bad. But in the meantime, I feel like I'm stifling rather than fostering his math ability, which is obviously opposite my goals as an educator.

So I was going to post on a different forum, and then remembered that I'd posted here before... reread all of these thoughts, which was helpful. DS still hates math. I feel like it's getting worse. He's only working about a year ahead in SM, when he could solve these multiplication problems mentally at 4. But for whatever reason, he has ZERO desire to do anything math related. I tried LOF- he thought it was okay to listen to, but when it came to doing the problems, same glazed over look. I tried BA- again, it was okay but no interest. Whether it's difficult or simple, he doesn't care. I feel like he's actually losing his mental math skills. Is there some way to keep his number sense/problem solving healthy and thriving, even while we slug through SM? Is there some way to sneak these things in without them looking like math? I feel like I'm failing him...

Please update when you can :thumbup:

I've been shocked by how much my kids are loving The Jungle Book. Another current hit is James Herriot's Treasury For Children. There are scores of awesome read aloud lists on these forums, and I'm sure you'll more recommendations than you could ever possibly read aloud :-)